Amph Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)

So you've clicked this thread, you've either read Book 6 or don't care to be spoiled, so you might as well know that this thread serves for the related discussions of "Is Dumbledore truly dead?" and "Is Snape good or evil?"

So, what do you think?

M. Scott

 

Snape Good Dumbledore alive and well.

 

Snape BBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDD and Dumbly alive.

 

Care to give your reasonings, guys?

Personally, I think Snape is good, but Dumbledore is truly dead.

I think that when Snape made the unbreakable vow (which he had to do lest he blow his cover), he went straight to Dumbledore, and probably even said he would die before he killed Dumbledore (which, due to the Unbreakable Vow, would be true). But Dumbledore has always said there are many things worse than death, and he would have seen that Snape as a member of Voldemort's inner circle -- possibly even guaranteed to be right-hand man after doing away with Dumbledore -- was much more valuable and worth sacrificing himself, just as he froze Harry to prevent him from doing anything because he sees Harry as much more valuable than himself.

It would also explain Dumbledore's almost furious defenses of his trust in Snape. He had asked Snape to do the unthinkable and, in his loyalty, Snape finally relented.

Dumbledore surely knew he was going to die after drinking from the potion in the bowl, when he drank it, and if Snape was truly evil he surely would have done more to Harry than block his spells and CONTINUE TEACHING HIM HOW TO IMPROVE, albeit in the form of battlefield taunting.

I think everyone in the story is going to believe Snape to be evil but in the end they will have to trust him and he will help them save the world.

M. Scott

 

I agree with Scott about Snape and Dumbledore. It would be pretty cheesy to bring people back from the dead and I doubt that JKR is going to do it. The reason she has been killing off the adults that are close to Harry serves to illustrate that he is going to have to fight Voldemort alone.

I believe in the next book that Snape will probably be slipping information by making a few minor mistakes that will lead Harry to Voldemort and eventually die protecting Harry from the other Death Eaters so that Harry can fight Voldemort.

Just my two cents.
~Priestess

 

I think Snape is good, basically for the reasons above.

Especially when Dumbledore was bad to sound like he was pleading with Snape, he isn't the type of man to beg for his life.

 

Snape - bad

Dumbledore - well, I haven't figured it out yet. He is dead, but my heart tells me that his story doesn't end yet...

 

I have to agree with Scott as well. Snape had to kill Dumbledore to prove to Voldermort and the other Deatheaters that he was truly one of them, all the while he realy is/was working for the order of the phoenix. Kinda like how a FBI deep cover guy works for organized crime.

 

Yeah, but Dumbledore is not an ordinary man you would kill just like that, to proove something. He is the greatest wizard ever. The only one whom Voldemort fears.

 

I want Snape to be evil, because I like Snape, but he isn't, I think. Dumbledore is dead, has to be. I mean, no one survived the killing curse before Harry, and Dumbledore says that Harry is more important than he. Also, if the spell didn't kill him, not even Dumbledore could manage to shield himself from the ground after falling a few hundred foot.

 

I think that Dorkman has a pretty good handle on this issue as well. Snape, whilst responsible for killing Dumbledore, was clearly not interested in killing Harry, but training him to do what he needs to do in the future. He could have killed Harry easily in the running battle to escape, but he made every effort to give him further training.

Dumbledore is dead, I think. Not only was there no way he could have survived the Avada Kadavra curse, but his painting was already hung in the headmaster's office at the end of the book, with Dumbledore in it but asleep. For this very reason I don't think Dumbledore is "gone" even though he is dead. I think that his painting will have information for Harry, especially information regarding Snape, in the next book.

 

I think that Dumbledore had to die in order for Harry to step out of his shadow and become his own person, even if he is still loyal to Dumbledore. As for Snape, I believe that he is evil. I'm not sure why, but it's just a gut feeling. For 5 books, we've been thinking "he's bad!!" only to be told that he's good. So when he is reveal to be bad, I think that he's bad for good. Or else, Snape would've tried to explain things to the Order.

 

I've long since given up deciding whether Snape is good or bad. First reading I was flat out convinced that he was still working w/ Dumbledore and that it was Harry's usual prejudice getting in the way from understanding what happened.

Second reading of the book, I decided that Snape was loyal to Voldermort all along.

Curse JK for leaving us w/ such a grey subject to debate about for years while we wait for the next book

I do believe that Dumbledore is dead. She's been very good about following traditional mythology which always makes sure that the hero must ultimately face his mortal enemy alone w/o the assistance of his great master/teacher.

I think Dumbledore might still be available to talk to through his portrait in the headmaster's office, but other than that - he's not coming back.

 

Well after reading that part I had no idea what to think. He might be evil and he might not be.

 

I've said since literally hours after the book came out that Snape is still a good guy. In fact, this is what I posted at the COS forums from right after I finished reading the book:


Is Snape evil, or was that scene a setup with Dumbledore?

I think it was definitely a setup. There are too many clues that Snape is a ?good guy? for him to have killed Dumbledore out of hatred.

Snape had no choice but to kill Dumbledore because of the Unbreakable Vow. Say what you will, but I don't think that he would have done this had he not already had it in the back of his mind that he had to kill Dumbledore. He said that he would protect Draco and only complete Draco's task if Draco was going to fail and/or was in danger. Neither was the case at that moment. He was not in danger - Harry was inaminate, Dumbledore was disarmed, and only Death Eaters could climb the stairs.

Dumbledore clearly trusted Snape with his life. It also seems likely, then that he would trust Snape to take his life it meant the Death Eaters or even Voldemort himself would not have the pleasure of doing so. His last words of "Severus... please..." could have been him pleading to kill him, not to save him. Snape's look of revulsion, of course, could be for what he had to do.

Snape would have then "proven" his allegiances to Voldemort. By killing Dumbledore, Snape has destroyed "the only one he ever feared." This would make Snape very trusted by Voldemort - perhaps even enough to be trusted with the knowledge of the Hocruxess. This could be valuable knowledge to Harry in his quest to discover the remaining four.

Also note that Snape attempted to help Harry prepare for battle with the Death Eaters by stressing the importance of nonverbal spells. Then, when Harry was being attacked, Snape yelled "blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" Clearly, he was warning Harry to shut off his mind from any attempts at Legilimens/Occulemency (sp?) and also stressing the importance of nonverbal spells.

How can Snape prove his loyalty to Dumbledore without Harry going ballistic? Simple. The pensive. The book stated that Dumbledore's office was the same as it was before his death - meaning it is likely that the pensive was still there. Surely Dumbledore would have recorded any memories of telling Snape to kill him, which the rest could then watch and learn the truth.

Also note that Snape outright lied in Chapter 2. He said that he believed Harry could be the next Dark Lord, which, of course, was totally untrue. He always treated Harry like crap. There's also the issue of the conversation Hagrid overheard in which Snape didn't want to follow Dumbledore's orders - perhaps he did not want to kill the only one who ever trusted him.

What's interesting is that I always believed Snape to be evil UNTIL I read this book. Dumbledore's unwavering faith in him mixed with the fact that Dumbledore made Harry promise to abandom him if it meant saving his own life convinced me that Snape did it because Dumledore wanted him to. This shows not only that Dumbledore has great faith in those close to him, but that Snape was unwavering in his allegiance to Dumbledore.

This could definitely set up a situation in which Harry is once again slapped in the face with the fact that Snape is a good guy, and it could force them to work together to find the remaining Horcruxes. It would force Harry to show the type of faith in people that Dumbledore often showed. In a sense, Harry would take Dumbledore's place as the one who stands against the Ministry's ideals yet is on the same side, and who is the only one the wizarding community believes is great enough to confront and defeat Voldemort.

 

Excellent points, mousley. Agreed on all of them. (Don't you love how the people who insist Snape is evil never have any sort of logical argument to back it up while we have this entire mountain of evidence?) A few more points I can think of:

- Dumbledore would never plead for his own life. He doesn't fear death. He is on record as having said in one of the earlier books that he sees death as "the next great adventure."

- Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore arguing in the forest and said it sounded like Snape was feeling "overworked." Now what might Dumbledore have ordered him to do that he would want to refuse, eh? Also note that he never would have argued with Dumbledore if he truly were evil and intended to betray him on the tower - Severus Snape is not a stupid man, and if were a sleeper agent seeking to maintain Dumbledore's complete trust until the end, he would never give these sorts of signs of wavering loyalty. His arguing with Dumbledore can only demonstrate that he's on Dumbledore's side.

- The book explicitly mentions that Snape's hand shakes when Narcissa asks him to agree to complete Draco's mission, then reminds us (and Snape) that Bellatrix is still watching. He has no choice but to agree to this vow whether he wants to or not. I have a suspicion he may not have known what the mission was at all - notice that he never says anything explicit about it, merely suggests that he's already in on it and then waits for the women to provide more information? Classic spy tactic. "Oh, yeah, of course I'm in on the plan. Um, what's the plan again?"

- It was only one chapter earlier that Harry was hating himself for what he was doing to Dumbledore, and yet he can't comprehend that perhaps Snape's reason for being angry is he's been put in a similar position of being ordered to hurt someone he cares about? Besides, we all know that even if one's heart isn't in it, one must be 100% emotionally invested in the outcome of an unforgiveable curse for it to work. Bellatrix said as much in OotP.

 

Yep, I agree with Ousley and Mara. I don't think Snape is evil, there's definitely something deeper to this whole situation. And Dumbledore is most likely dead. There's a definite parallel to Star Wars here, that didn't immediately reveal itself, Dumbledore being the Obi-Wan character who sacrifices himself so the hero will step up, Snape being the Vader character who on the surface seems evil, but hides a goodness within. Of course these are old character archetypes used for centuries, not just with Star Wars. But it's interesting to think about.

 

Count me in on the group that thinks Snape isn't really evil. If there's one thing that's obvious in Rowling's books it's that not everything is as it appears. In every book there's been a character or characters who we think one thing of at the begining of the book and by the end we see them in a completely different light. Think about it:

Sorcerer's Stone-- Quirrel we think is an incompetent coward at the begining of the book but by the end he turns out to be the villan all along, with Voldemort sticking out the back of his head to boot.

Chamber of Secrets-- Professor Lockheart we just think is a self-absorbed nincompoop but turns out to be far more clever than he lets on.

Prisoner of Azkaban-- Obviously Sirius is a murdering lunatic bent at the begining but by the end we know he's been wrongly accused and really is a good guy.

Goblet of Fire-- Moody the ex-Auorer isn't really moody at all but Barty Crouch Jr. a convicted Death Eater, and really is the one behind Harry's name being put in the Goblet.

Order of the Phoenix-- Umbridge we learn isn't exactly evil but just seriously misguided and afraid of everything that's happening around her, which paints her in a more sympathetic light. Even Grawp turns out to be a good guy by the end.

Half-Blood Prince-- Draco Malfoy, who we all know is a major bully, in the end can't bring himself to kill Dumbledore. Then there's that whole scene with Moaning Myrtle with him crying and worrying about Voldemort killing him. And don't forget his reaction when Dumbledore comments about Greyback being let loose on the school, and his friends.

book seven-- so what character will we think one thing of at the begining and think something completely different of at the end? Me thinks it'll be Snape considering we are all predisposed to hate him now. But what will it be that changes our opinion of him? Now THAT's the real question.

 

I'm in the Dumbledore = dead, Snape = good camp. In fact, I found that I liked Snape MORE after HBP than I did in the other books. I truly think he had to do something he wanted no part of, but in loyalty to Dumbledore, did so.

IMO, Harry, Ron, and Hermione HAVE to learn that not all Slytherin's are evil. They are really bent towards Slytherin in that way...in fact, I was hoping one the of the Maurader's (sp?) would have been in Slytherin, and not all in Gryffindor, just to show the kids that their view is off. (Well, not Pettigrew, but you see what I'm saying, I hope?)

Slytherin house is towards ambition, but that's not always a bad thing. I wonder if Snape will be the one to help them realize that?

 

Me too. I believe Dumbledore is gone and that Snape is really good.

For instance, The Elf Tales Chapter in HBP has Hagrid overhearing a conversation between Dumbledore and Snape inside the Forest. Snape is continually saying that he doesn't want to do it, but Dumledore insists upon it. Could this be the events that happened at the end of HBP? Is that why Snape took great offense to Potter's "coward" comments? Because Snape really wants to help Potter, but this is the only way to help. I mean, I would hate that position too.

 

I think that Dumbledore saw death coming, either as an inevitable end of his part in the war or as a sacrifice he would have to make. (Perhaps he read Joseph Campbell.) I think he knew that, since Snape had been a Death Eater and the price at which Snape had come back, he knew that the best way for Snape to be on the inner circle when the time came to move against Voldemort, he encouraged Snape's "defection." This is probably why he was involved with the Order of the Phoenix.

 

Dumbledore is dead. The Body-Bind curse on Harry lifted, we saw the green light and everything. Only one person has ever lived through the Avada Kedavra and it isn't Dumbledore.

Snape is good. Why? All the reasons mentioned above, but one thing in particular gets me. It's in the book that Snape and Dumbledore look at one another for a long moment (can't remember the exact quote) between Dumbledore's "Please . . ." and Snape's "Avada Kedavra."

Can two of the greatest Legilimens in the wizarding world can look at one another for that long and nothing pass between them? Maybe.

Would Dumbledore take the opportunity to show Snape his mind? Possibly, even probably.

Is there any mileage in Dumbledore's blowing Snape's cover and endangering Harry in order to live? Probably not - he's just drunk a potion that cripples him almost to the point of death, and might not have lived long anyway.

Why does Snape have a look of hatred and revulsion on his face? Because he's being forced to kill the one man who believed in him, believed in his repentance, for the sake of a boy he hates.

Snape is a good guy. He may have to die in Book 7 to prove this to the world in general, but he is on the side of the angels.

 

Great points Ousely! I thought much the same as you after my first reading. Also, the scene where Harry hexes the hell out of Malfoy is VITALLY important in the grand scheme of things to determining if Snape is bad or not.

I think that if you look back on Snape's character and how he behaves towards Harry throughout the series you'll see that he spends his time trying his hardest to get Harry to live up to his (Snape's) expectations. We see the books through Harry's eyes. The eyes of adolescence fail to see and understand the real motives of adults and if someone mistreats them or does something contrary to how they believe an adult should behave towards them - they tend to think that adult is "out-to-get-them."

Snape is, by all means, the most disagreeable fellow out there.

But if you look at his potions book, you'll see that when it comes to his subject that Snape was a genius at figuring out how to see "beyond" the conventional methods of teaching. His notations in the sides of the book w/ extra churns, etc prove that even though he may have been socially inept as a student at Hogwarts, Snape was/is very intelligent.

His own intellect is what he compares w/ Harry and when Harry fails to show any true genius of going beyond spells, or potions, etc - he sees him as being average and nothing remarkable.

Then he cursed Malfoy w/ one of Snape's own spells.

How much you want to bet that's a spell that Snape spent a lifetime wanting to use on someone. Seeing Harry cast it properly made him realize that perhaps the boy DOES have talent. He wasn't angry at Harry when he attacked Malfoy, infact he mutters something that vaguely resembles awe.

Even as he was fleeing, Snape was still trying to issue some last words of advice to Harry before leaving w/ the Death Eaters.

By killing Dumbledore, there will be no way that Voldermort won't trust him. I strongly believe that IF Snape turns out to be the good guy that Dumbledore knew him to be, he will find ways to help Harry locate the last Horcruxes, and he will ultimately become Harry's biggest ally. ..whether Harry would ever believe it or not.

 

How much you want to bet that's a spell that Snape spent a lifetime wanting to use on someone. Seeing Harry cast it properly made him realize that perhaps the boy DOES have talent.

I hadn't thought of that. "For Enemies"? Wonder if young Severus spent lessons itching to rip holes in James Potter?

Mind you, it's a destructive spell. It's not a defensive spell, like Stupefy, Impedimenta or Petrificus Totalus. Malfoy is left bleeding, and this little encounter could well be the genesis of Snape's actions on the tower. Malfoy gets his junior Death Eater butt kicked by Harry, who although he can't keep his mouth shut does have the sense to use a spell Malfoy isn't prepared for. And Malfoy's been entrusted with killing Dumbledore, when Harry Potter can take him off guard like that?

I'd say this is a final confirmation to Snape that Malfoy is going to need his help, and thus that a long talk with Dumbledore is required.

And also a hint that Harry is perhaps more dangerous than he looks - he could come out with anything, and crucially tends not to think before casting a spell he's unsure of the effects of. Dangerous opponent.

 

That is a contraversial topic. Snape *is* evil when it comes to the way how he treats other people, how he thinks of others... He had shown this many times; from not trusting Sirious, being rude to Harry, being rude to Harry, by suspecting everything... He is not really a very god person.
But when it comes to wheather he actualy betrayed Dumbledore or not, I am not sure. A feeling tells me he is, but so many things are left unsaid after HBP. There are some details that describe Snape's character, but those details can be differently interpretated (sp?). For example, that Dumbledore's "severus, please" can mean both a cry for help, or an order to a member of the OOTP. We cannot be sure til Book 7.

What do you all think of Sectumsempra spell?