Discussion in 'Non Star Wars Fan Fiction' started by LilyHobbitJedi, Aug 11, 2008.
Has anyone come across any information stating why Riddle used the diary as a Horcrux?
No no no. The real question is HOW does he know he is the heir of Slytherin.
Did Morfin tell him when he framed him?
The years don't seem to match up. He created the diary in 1943 but he killed his father in the summer of 1943... so he had already opened the Chamber earlier that school year? Remember it is close to the end of the year because Dippet says Riddle will have to go back to the orphanage during the summer if the school has to close.
So he must have known before he went to Little Hangleton...
Anyone have any ideas how he researched the info? I need to know for a fic I want to write.
Anyone have any ideas how he researched the info? I need to know for a fic I want to write.
That's were I was heading.
I found on the Harry Potter wiki that it was opened 1942 and that his father was killed in '43.
Bella, simply by the fact that she has a lot more screen time. And she narrates. So we get internal whining as well as external. And Cho wasn't really "whiny" whiny, she was just very emotionally distraught (for reasons much better than Bella's - her boyfriend got viciously murdered and she felt like she was betraying his memory by going out with Harry).
I don't think Riddle was using the diary to open the Chamber, in the way Ginny was. He opened the chamber in the 1942-1943 year himself. I think he started researching Slytherin and the Chamber from the moment he was placed in Slytherin. I also think he did a lot of research during the summer holidays, when he was supposed to be at the orphanage (I think he just kept running away from the place; he hated it, so why not travel and research instead?). I think he discovered that he was the Heir of Slytherin on his own. Maybe he inferred it - it is said that only the Heir can open the Chamber, and if he found out how to open the Chamber (by trial and error, perhaps, and a few lucky guesses), then it's a "well, I guess that means I'm the heir" situation. He got actual confirmation that he was the heir of Slytherin after meeting Morfin in the summer of 1943.
The diary was then turned into a Horcrux after the Riddle murders in 1943. I think the ring was turned into a Horcrux as well around that time (because he acquired it from Morfin in 1943), but since he killed three people that summer, he had optioned to work from.
As for how he researched it... trial and error, lucky guesswork, talking to dark wizards in hiding, ransacking the Restricted Section (remember, info on the Chamber of Secrets and the Heir of Slytherin could have been there in the 1940s, only to be removed after the attacks Riddle caused in the 1942-1943 school year; or maybe Riddle was the one who removed them, if he never felt like returning the information, if he wanted to keep it hidden)... it could be a number of things.
I personally think that he used the diary to write down and chronicle any information he found regarding the Heir of Slytherin and the Chamber of Secrets (and he could have charmed it so no one but him could read it). That would have made it extremely important to him, and he only used important items as his Horcruxes. Dumbledore states at one point in HBP that "the diary contained the information that he was the Heir of Slytherin, therefore it was important to him and not just some random diary" (that's obviously not the right line, but it's something like that, I think). Because the only reason the diary had his soul in it was because it was turned into a Horcrux, I think the Chamber information was contained within the diaries pages in a different way before part of his soul got put into it.
yeah okay but still that means he opened the chamber (knowing he was the heir of slytherin) before he met Morfin.
So that means Morfin didn't divulge the info. Was there a family tree book in the library or something? Hmmm. I just don't want to write something different if there is canon out there.
edit: didn't see the other reply before I started typing.
I'm pretty sure Moaning Myrtle's death was used to create the diary horcrux, I think Jo has even said that in interviews after DH was released.
And from the wiki's he did use his father's death sometime after, maybe just before or just after he graduated.
Dumbledore is sure that he had already created a horcrux at the time he asks Slughorn about them. He just wants to know what would happen if you made more than 1, and was sure he already knew the process at that point.
But anyway, I think that he must have just found out he was the heir in some way that has not been canonized for sure yet.
Perhaps he found the entrance and already knowing he could speak parceltongue, told it to open up and when it did he had to assume that he was the heir.
Also I like the idea of there being a family tree somewhere but that would be a big freakin' tree to go back 1000 years
I forgot about that line Dumbledore said. That would make sense why he chose that item.
I think Bella - for the reasons Idri said, though I was just going to go with the fact that Cho lost the person she presumably loves, and thus has a reason to be upset, whereas Bella doesn't.
I'm not sure about Moaning Myrtle. I definitely have not heard that in any JKR interview that I know of. Myrtle's death was accidental - she was there at the wrong time. Plus, she was not an important target to Riddle; it seems to me that he only used important victims as his Horcruxes (like his relatives - plus he was planning to use Harry's death for one). Or at least he tried to make sure that each victim was "worthy" of their death causing a Horcrux to be created.
Plus, JKR hasn't said anything about the rules of killing people to create Horcruxes. We know that killing splits the soul, but what are the rules around that? Any kind of killing? If I accidentally drop a 16 ton weight on you, does that mean my soul is split? What if I am part of a group of people sending Stunning Spells at one target, and that target dies (think of McGonagall in OOTP - she almost died because she got hit by too many Stunning Spells)? Is my soul split because I "killed" someone? What if I stab you through the heart with Gryffindor's sword? Or stab you in the eye with a pointed stick, or kill you with a dagger in a completely non-magical way? Do Muggles have their souls split when they kill someone, or does that only happen if you use magic to kill?
This is just an opinion of mine, but it'll stick until it's canonically contradicted. We know you make Horcruxs by splitting your soul and the soul is split by killing another person. I think that only Avada Kedavra causes the soul to be split and therefore ready to be made into a Horcrux. The reasoning for this is that only Avada Kedavra is unavoidable, undetectable and unstoppable (unless you're Harry Potter ). There's no counter-curse against it, so if you cast it, the Universe or God (etc, etc) knows you really, really mean to kill someone and thus, your soul is split and ready to be made into a Horcrux. Also, we know that Voldemort has killed a lot of people... but it says that his soul has only been split eight times to make his seven Horcurxes + Harry. I do not believe for one second flat that he only killed eight people in the course of two wars (well, we already know that - three Riddles, two Potters and a hell of a lot of other people Voldemort decided were important enough to "kill personally"). So... does the act of making the Horcrux split your soul, or does the killing do that first?
And what about the Order - the good guys who have killed? Molly Weasley killed Bellatrix: does that mean her soul is split? Can she make a Horcrux? No, she wouldn't (obviously), but still, that question stands. Is it just killing anyone by any means that splits the soul, or using Avada Kedavra specifically to make sure that there is no way possible for your targeted victim to escape?
And I would think that Voldemort's used Avada Kedavra more than a half-dozen times, so I think it might be that plus something else that does the soul-splitting, or his would be in fragments.
That's a possibility!
But he is in fragments. Dumbledore says something about that in the Kings' Cross chapter in DH... can't remember what it is right now. I'll go look it up when I have a moment.
Or, he only used Avada Kedavra on people whose death's he wanted to turn into Horcruxes and used other, non-Avada Kedavra spells to kill others. After all, there is a Entrail-Expelling Curse that would certainly kill someone (if it's not blocked). The whole thing about Avada Kedavra being the Killing Curse is that it's unstoppable and unblockable and leaves no trace. There's a lot spells that can kill, but only the AV kills in that absolute way.
Very good point.
Eww, exactly, but you see my point.
Thankfully not used on any character we know (... I hope... JKR didn't exactly tell us how some characters were killed off in DH). Check the St Mungo's scenes in OOTP if you want to know where the Entrail-Expelling Curse came from.
According to the first listing in "Behind the Scenes" on the Harry Potter [link=http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Horcrux]wiki[/link], JKR is going to put in the encyclopedia the Horcrux process. So if this ever gets done, we'll know.
The interview was a big huge long one she did like just weeks after DH was released. I don't know if I can find the link or not but I'll try. If you look here.. [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horcrux]Horcruxes[/link] it attributes the diary horcrux to Moaning Myrtle. It is wikipedia but take it for what you will.
And Moaning Myrtle was a mudblood. Riddle's target back in 1942. [link=http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Myrtle]Myrtle[/link]
They say it was an accident back in 1942 but that isn't the truth. I don't think any death that Voldemort was involved with was on accident, except maybe his own in Godric's Hollow. The wiki itself also says he was killed by Tom's orders.
Here's also something else
. It's an editorial on mugglenet, still searching for the link. [link=http://18.104.22.168/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=jk+rowling+on+the+diary+horcrux&fr=yfp-t-701&u=www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-peter04.shtml&w=jk+rowling+diary+diaries+horcrux&d=V5HlOrZfVCgA&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=_W2dthKXXMnmSsKzpb.MRA--]Mugglenet Editoral[/link]
Also is there any evidence he caused anyone's death before Moaning Myrtle's? If he told the basilisk to look at her to kill her and it was his first death he had created, that would be pretty special for him. "His first time"
I know there is official word somewhere out there where she said who Luna Lovegood ended up marrying and all sorts of other questions. I can't find the interview for the life of me but I know it exists. And all the wiki's say that she was murdered, not by accident, and was used to create the diary horcrux.
Also remember, Lord Voldemort did not kill Cedric Diggory. Wormtail did on his orders but the murder is almost always attributed to Voldemort in both the books and movies afterwards.
Anyway a bit off the subject at hand but thought I'd throw this out there.
Edit: FOUND IT
This was done like a week or two after DH was released. If you are wondering about the legitamacy of this interview, it was a web chat hosted on Bloomsbury's official website. As you can see in the link it was fan questions, over 120,000 were sent in.
Ah, okay then, thanks for the links!
Anyway, didn't mean to get off on a whole tangent there. But that transcript is really interesting.
I think somewhere in there it even says that George and Angelina got married and named their kid Fred. Lots of interesting stuff that one might forget even if they have read it before.
On the topic of the heir of slytherin, which is what we were discussing. I did like your idea that it was just research and educated guesses on his part that led him to the knowledge.
If I do get around to writing that fic that is probably the direction I will go in. I'm just wondering if I should write any love interests for him and how he would deal with that? Would he just play the girl and ignore her when he's done with her or would he just not be interested at all and be all business?
I really don't think Riddle understood love - at all. Given what we know of him from HBP... he was so cruel, callous and domineering since he was a child, that I don't think the concept of love is one he would ever think about as being something real. That point of view may stem from the circumstances surrounding his mother's death, especially after he found out that he was a wizard and she was a witch. After all, when he was a kid he said that he didn't think his mother was a witch because why didn't she just "magic" herself out of illness? Instead, she went and died on him, despite having a newborn son who needed her. I get the feeling that he developed reasoning that love didn't exist and couldn't exist because he felt his own mother didn't love him enough to stay alive for him. Instead, she died and dropped him into a pretty terrible orphanage, securing a horrible childhood for him.
I don't think it's actually possibly to have a love interest for him, in the traditional manner of love interests. If it was advantageous to have Girl XYZ hanging around him, then he'd probably allow it and fake his way through the relationship.
Though speaking of Riddle in romance stories -- there is a pretty good time travel fic on ff.net called [link=http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2406786/1/Have_You_Ever]Have You Ever[/link]. The writing could be better, but the concept is neat and it's a pretty enjoyable light read. Anyway, it features a Hermione, Ron, Harry, Ginny, Draco and Lavender (don't ask, just go with it) team who are sent back in time to the 1940s to stop Riddle before he becomes Voldemort. Because this was written (I think) between the publication of OOTP and HBP, it has nothing to do with Horcruxes and that whole shebang, but the main idea is that Riddle inherited a curse from his mother: if he were ever to fall in love, he would die. Naturally, he and Hermione develop a relationship (much to the despair of Harry, who is admittedly very OTC, but it's forgivable given the AUness of the entire thing) and she has to find a way to break the curse before he dies. It's a decent fic, if you like drama/romance. And Hermione/Riddle, apparently. Strange as it is, a pre-Voldemort/homicidal maniac... er... Voldemort goes pretty well with Hermione.
I actually read a rather adult oriented Hermione/Voldemort fic the other day. Ron and Harry were dead and just about everyone else except Ginny who was given to Draco to marry since she was pure blood.
Voldemort actually convinces her to come to the dark side (i think he had a lot of cookies)
Anyway, it's out of character for him because she is a mudblood but to even make it possible the author does a respectable job of making it believable and the way she breaks Hermione is actually somewhat believable.
It's a really long one shot and I forget the name of it but I'm sure you could find it on FF.net if you searched Hermione Voldemort as the tag.
Anyway I thought it was as well done as you could do something like that.
They ended up making it that the pain became pleasure and once you were a Death Eater and had his mark it was like life was so much better. Now that I think of it, it reminds me of the "necromongers" (sp?) from that horrible movie, The Chronicles of Riddick. Like if you join their religion and convert your pain goes away and you feel nothing but good things or something along those lines.
Sounds rather Jacqueline Carey-eque, if you ask me. (What with feeling pain as pleasure, etc).
Voldemort actually convinces her to come to the dark side (i think he had a lot of cookies)
That's how the dark side rolls, my Slytherin friend and compatriot.
So has anyone ever discussed, as powerful as Voldemort is... would he have been capable of producing a patronus charm. Obviously if he could it would be a snake, no doubt.
But I wonder if he could. I mean he's so powerful but if he has no positive memories... But then again you could argue he can be happy even if it as at the expense of others. Perhaps he thinks about his first kill or killing his father and then a white transparent snake pops out.
Also he has some/a lot control over the dementors.
He could probably experience joy of some type from his activities.
When did you first discover HP?
The first time was when I was in third grade. I asked my mom to order the box set of the first three novels (all that had been released at that time) through a Scholastic Book Club's catalogue that had been distributed to my class. I loved them, identified strongly with the characters, and remember believing that Harry and Hermione would end up together eventually.
Then my mom decided, after about a year, that I wasn't allowed to read Harry Potter anymore because it was about magic and witchcraft. She had never read them but a friend of hers noticed that I owned them and told her they were inappropriate for the aforementioned reasons so ... I hid them behind the couch and read them one more time, before I had to say goodbye to them.
I ended up rediscovering Harry Potter last summer. I had moved out of my parents' home -- and actually into another country, briefly -- and my boyfriend owns the series and is an avid fan. I re-read the first three, and then was finally able to finish the entire series. My favorite novel is still the Prisoner of Azkaban.
Have you written HP fanfic?
No, but I've read a couple. I found a Draco/Ginny fic that I surprisingly loved; the author made the characterizations work incredibly well, they complemented each other and were equals, and it didn't feel strained.
Who is your favorite character?
Such a hard question, they are all wonderful in their own ways. I do love Fred and George's sense of humor and liveliness and identified with Hermione when she was younger (with the first three novels).
What are your favorite 'ships'?
My boyfriend loves Harry/Hermione and Harry/Tonks. I've never been incredibly interested in the romantic elements of Harry Potter, but I did enjoy that Ginny/Draco story. The only pairing I struggle to understand is Ron/Hermione; they get along fine, but it's not a relationship I admire or would want to emulate.
Now that the series is over, what are you happy about or regret about the conclusion?
I didn't enjoy the last few novels as much as I did the beginning of the series. I need to re-read them, but my first impression was that their characterizations seemed off. It was understandable, as it became more plot-driven and the resolution needed to come without making it any longer than it already was ...
That's pretty much it. I have no complaints about the action, or how Voldemort was defeated.
ah yes, Riddle and romance, that's a hard one. I can see a young, pre-Voldemort Riddle playing girls to get what he wants from them, as he seemed to be extremely good at manipulating people into liking him when he was a kid at Hogwarts. I mean, how else did he become prefect?? As for the current Voldemort, that's where I'm struggling, too.
I've had this plot bunny for a romance between him and a female version of Draco in an AU where Malfoy was a girl. It's abusive, based on threats to kill Lucius and Narcissa if she didn't give him whatever he wanted, twisted to the point where this little girl is manipulated into torturing the hell out of Lucius, and even with that, it's still very hard to write.
Yeah, Voldemort is hard to grasp because he is so evil it's hard to imagine.
There aren't too many characters out there like him where he is just completely void of positive feelings towards anyone.
But I tend to think he was getting something from Bellatrix towards the end. Just his reaction to her death, he did care for her on some level, even if he did beat her into the ground with his words when she is easily the most loyal of his subjects.
I just wonder if Rodolphus was approving?
Speaking of Rodolphus, he almost wasn't in the books at all. I almost feel that it would have been more interesting for Bellatrix to not have been married at all (maybe she'd have some anti-marriage implications or something), especially since being married to Rodolphus didn't really do anything for her character in the books.
Voldemort being a representation of pure evil is something I struggle a lot with in the books (and even moreso in the films). I like my villains to be shaded in grey and I keep going back and forth on the topic of "just how dimensional a villain is Voldemort really?". I can't say that he's my favourite villain ever. Umbridge, on the other hand, is one of my favourite villains because, unlike Voldemort, JKR managed to get me to love hating her. I think Umbridge is a little more multi-dimensional than Voldemort, villain wise...