How important to your enjoyment of EU is a single, consistent continuity?

"If someone were to write a novel that contradicted the classic trilogy, that novel would be "wrong" and would belong in an Alternate Universe.
If things in Ep 2 contradict parts of the EU (such as Uncle Owen NOT being Obi-Wan's brother) it is the movie that is an alternate universe and the screen writer would be disregarding continuity.

If the novel writers are expected to work from what has been created before, then the screen writers (even if it is the guy who authorized the EU in the first place) should show the same courtesy to previously published material.

If LFL allows the next movie to seriously conflict with the Bantam, Del Rey and Scholastic novels and tosses them out of the mainstream as they did to much of the Marvel line and (deservedly in this case) the GoDV books, I will continue to consider the books the "real" Star Wars and not bother with Ep 3 at all.
If Ep 2 and 3 contradict the 60 or 70 novels, then the movies are ?wrong" and I will consider them an Alternate Universe."


This is incredible. I can't believe there are some people out there that actually think like this.
I sincerely hope that EU gets contradicted wholesale in EPII and III, just to see the look on your face when it does.

 

Dewlanna...
"...and tosses them out of the mainstream as they did to much of the Marvel line and (deservedly in this case) the GoDV books..."

Actually that's really not true at all. The "mainstream" of Star Wars has always included the comic books, the novels and the action figures. Those three items have always been key to Lucas goal for Star Wars.

Later on, one could add the games as well - both RPG and electronic.

However, to think that LFL "tossed" Marvel out in any segments greater than incidental ones is in error - they haven't done anything of the sort. Quite the contrary, a flagship general purpose Star Wars magazine, Star Wars Gamer magazine has drawn heavily from Marvel.

 

Sorry, guys, this is my opinion.

I like the books better than I do the movies, I consider the books a far better value (amount of money spent vs. amount of entertainment enjoyed) than the movies. I think they're better story telling, more lovingly crafted, and, in many cases, more original.

I really don't give a flying freel if Lucas started the whole thing, he authorized the novels, he ought to stick by what was written in them.
If he didn't want to say when the Clone Wars took place, he shouldn't have let Zahn write about them. There are plenty of other things he didn't let Zahn do. His allowing Zahn to place the Clone Wars when he did should have been adhered to all down the line, including the prequel movies. If he was going to give Jabba a feminine Hutt girlfriend, he should not have given Crispin free reign in developing Hutt sexuality.
Ya know, generally when someone creates things out of sequence, they don't change or ignore the published material to fit a new reality. If items need to be changed, most writers would use a little creativity to make the new fit with the old, they wouldn't just ignore the old.

I can understand the problems with the Marvel comics, the storyline wasn't going in a direction that LFL felt it should. Things needed to be changed. And they were with a minimum of fan disruption. Most of us have no idea what took place in the Marvel comics and the changes went unnoticed by most. The differences between the prequels and the EU will be noticed by many vocal fans.
SW material that was published during the first run of the Original Trilogy was blithely contradicted when GL made changes. This should not have happened, but it did. And we make the best of it. What I'm saying is that it should not happen again. It was wrong the first time, it would still be wrong today. The novels published after RotJ conform to the new reality of Jabba being a slug and Leia being Luke's twin sister and such.
And all that was contradicted was a small amount of material, published over a small amount of time, and read by a small amount of fans. Now Ep. 2 and 3 are probably going to contradict a large body of work, published over the course of a decade, and read by a large number of fans. I suspect there was only a handful of people who, when viewing RotJ in the 80s, expected Jabba to be a man. There will be a much large group of people expecting the Clone Wars and Ben and Owen to be brothers and other parts of the EU to be as they were written.
It's a matter of scope more than anything.
And the fan expectation that the continuity we've enjoyed in the novels for 10 years would naturally extend to the new movies. Guess we were wrong.

The question asked was, "How important to your enjoyment of EU is a single, consistent continuity?"
My answer is VERY, and I expect the prequel movies to conform to the established continuity. If they don't, my enjoyment of the movies will be greatly diminished. My enjoyment of the published EU books will not be changed at all by whatever GL does in the movies.


Blackadder: I sincerely hope that EU gets contradicted wholesale in EPII and III, just to see the look on your face when it does.

What look do you expect that to be?
Surprise?
Hardly, from what I've seen so far, GL cares even less about continuity with the novels that he does continuity with his own movies.
Anger?
No, I used up all my anger with GL when he made a 2-hour toy commercial instead of a movie when he made TPM
Sadness? No, all that has been used up on the NJO.

No, the look will be one of disdain for the product, disgust with the creator who just wants more and more money, and an "I told you so" look for the fans when they realize that GL doesn't care about their beloved characters one iota.

 

<<<I Agree Mr. Skysolo. In fact I think GL royal guard is already fixing things that may come up. Reading the questions asked at comic con, notice how the one on Boba Fett is answered. I think it shows they are thinking about it at least.>>>

Didn't Sansweet use the same explanation in a Ask the Jedi Council question on the official site a while ago? They've definitely made preparations for certain changes, so I doubt we'll ever see anything that will majorly harm the EU. LFL knows that it isn't wise to alienate a large number of SW fans.

Dewlanna Solo<<<What look do you expect that to be?
Surprise?
Hardly, from what I've seen so far, GL cares even less about continuity with the novels that he does continuity with his own movies.
Anger?
No, I used up all my anger with GL when he made a 2-hour toy commercial instead of a movie when he made TPM
Sadness? No, all that has been used up on the NJO.>>>

Hmmm, it certainly seems that you haven't been happy with Star Wars in general for a couple years. Also, concerning your comment on the Ben being Owen's brother issue, I guarantee that that will NOT be contradicted in the movies. That issue hadn't been addressed in years until it was mentioned in one of the Jedi Apprentice books. LFL wouldn't remind fans of it just in time for Lucas to contradict it. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Obi-Wan mentions it in Episode 3 or if it's even a plot point considering the twins have to be delivered to their respective guardians at some point.

 

I agree with Dewlanna.

 

What Mastadge said.

 

uhm...Hutts can change sex...and they do get married...

I mean before TPM ever came out,two Hutts(a male and a female) were depicted getting married in one of Dark Horse's Boba Fett comics.The Phantom Menace contradicted nothing in the area of Hutt sexuality.

Some Hutts prefer to be male,and some prefer to be females.That's it.Some don't care.

As for Owen being Obi Wan's brother...well the Jedi Apprentice book never says Owen Lars is Obi Wan's brother.It just says Owen.I'm sure there are many humans named Owen in the Galaxy.

So far everything has gone just fine if you ask me.

(The books better then the movies?hmm I don't think either one is better then the other.Cheap fun popcorn entertainment.That's all you're watching and reading.)

 

"I consider the books....better story telling, more lovingly crafted, and, in many cases, more original."

Lemme see....
Lots of stories about the Empire and Alliance after ROTJ? A tired, unoriginal, un Star Wars series of books?
Do you really think so? Tell me what EU creation compares to Vader? X-wings? Star Destroyers?


"I really don't give a flying freel if Lucas started the whole thing, he authorized the novels, he ought to stick by what was written in them."

He doesn't and why the hell should he? It's not his story, it's only something he allows for people who aren't satisfied with the things he's already given us.


"No, the look will be one of disdain for the product, disgust with the creator who just wants more and more money, and an "I told you so" look for the fans when they realize that GL doesn't care about their beloved characters one iota."


Disdain for the product because you attack Lucas with the same old tired "TPM=toy commercial" stick that was used right back for Jedi? Because you cannot appreciate the impact, depth, and storytelling of the saga?
I hate to tell you this, but EU is just a nice little money making spinoff for Lucas too. He's not exactly doing it out of the goodness of his heart.
GL cares about HIS characters, all right. He just doesn't care about the ones dreamt up by EU authors? And really, who else are they scared for but Boba Fett, Mara Jade, and Thrawn?

 

What Dew said. And its sad to see Lucas contradicting his own movies.

 

"Because you cannot appreciate the impact, depth, and storytelling of the saga? "

Yes there is some depth in the saga...

But if you ask me alot of the depth is put in there by fans with way too much time on their hands...

I've seen alot crazy stuff put forward by fans...

stuff like:

GL has some kind of hidden symbolism in the lightsabres.There will only ever be blue,green,and red.

so much for that...

to

GL has had this whole thing planned out from the beginning.yadda yadda yadda

uh huh...

Anywho..to me Star Wars is just a simple tale of redemption.It's about a man that took a wrong turn in life,and got lost in his own hate,and self-loathing only to be redeemed by the simple love of his son.

It's about love,hope,fear,anger..tragic endings,hopeful beginnings.

It is not a story about Chosen Ones,Sith,Balance yadda,yadda ,blah,blah ,blah...

Even GL said one time, that his views are only his own... we should each interpret the saga for ourselves...not take his word...

Damn it Valiento...where are you?

I wish I had that interview with me right now.

 

"Tell me what EU creation compares to Vader?"

Thrawn.

 

I don't know of the actual interview, but I do remember something along those lines. I will be very upset if GL contradicts the EU in the prequals. But I don't believe he will. Why would he have a whole company who approves what goes on in the EU and watches for continuity if he's just going to violate it himself? If he makes rules that the EU can't tread on the Prequal's grounds, then he must have done them with the purpose in mind that most anything published prior to the prequals would fit with what he has planned. Otherwise, he wouldn't have approved it, right?

 

"Tell me what EU creation compares to Vader?"

Is that really a point?

But if you must know my opinion.... non.

But that's my opinion.

I'm sure there are many who disagree with me.

But let me ask you this...if I did say that a certain EU character was better then Vader ...what would your reaction have been?You'd vehemently disagree of course.So what's the point of asking that question?

You know I wouldn't be able to convince you that the EU and the movies are equal that way...

 

While non top Vader...there are a few that are equal to him IMO.

Ulic Qel Droma..I can honestly say I shed a tear when I finshed Redemption.KJA had finally managed to bring some life to his characters,and he succeeded marvelousy.(Dark Lords,and the Sith War series are both very entertaining,but I really couldn't feel anything for the characters.,..that all changed with Redemption)

In the looks and just plain nasty category...

Darth Bane.He's one bad-ass villain.

 

i agree with the wookiee. her reasoning IS that good. heh.

i wish sometimes that LFL and the authors would kriffing look at the existing canon, infinities, et-al. and, in the case of the clone wars for example, keep vague the topics that are potential future plot foci.

 

Continuity is the best part of SW

 

Dewlanna--

I like the books better than I do the movies...I think they're better story telling, more lovingly crafted, and, in many cases, more original.

More original??? More lovingly crafted??? Your opinion, of course...but the universe, the characters, and even many of the plot elements that run through Star Wars fiction were CREATED by George Lucas. As part of their writing tasks, authors strive to match the look and feel of his movies (all of them, not just the original trilogy). I'm somewhat dubious that it's even possible for authors to be "more original" than Lucas when they are writing in his universe.

As for "lovingly crafted"...Sheesh. The guy will end up devoting about two decades of his life to making these six films and attending to every small detail to make sure the story flows. I enjoy the Star Wars novels immensely, but they just can't compare with the movies in terms of being "lovingly crafted," if only because no author has devoted as much of his life and time attending to his Star Wars stories as George Lucas has.

I really don't give a flying freel if Lucas started the whole thing, he authorized the novels, he ought to stick by what was written in them.

But that's trying to change the rules after the fact, Dewlanna. When authors are invited to write in the Star Wars universe--that is, to play in George Lucas's sandbox--they understand that they play according to George's rules. One of those rules is that Lucas, through the movies and their adaptations, has the final word regarding continuity. As Tim Zahn, Mike Stackpole, Rebecca Moesta, Kevin Anderson, and Michael Reaves demonstrated at the ComicCon last week, the authors understand the rules of the game and accept them with grace, style, and maturity. If they've complained, I haven't seen it.

If he didn't want to say when the Clone Wars took place, he shouldn't have let Zahn write about them. There are plenty of other things he didn't let Zahn do. His allowing Zahn to place the Clone Wars when he did should have been adhered to all down the line, including the prequel movies.

There was no reason for GL to do that. George Lucas didn't simply create Star Wars sometime in the past, he's still in the process of creating it. Star Wars is a six film production that won't be complete until 2005, and may still undergo tweaking after Episode III's release. Star Wars is GL's creative baby. He should have the freedom to change the details as he sees fit for the purpose of formulating the story he wants to tell.

Ya know, generally when someone creates things out of sequence, they don't change or ignore the published material to fit a new reality.

LOL! Now that's truly funny! That happens all the time.

Example: DC Comics. In 1938, they introduced this character called Superman. Action Comics #1 depicted his first super-heroic adventure. Less than seven years later, in 1945, DC changed continuity. More Fun Comics #101 depicted the first adventure of Superboy, which, of course, was Superman as a kid. Suddenly, Superman had a dozen or so years of super-heroics behind him before his original 1938 debut.

With Superboy/Superman, we aren't simply talking about a corporate property. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster invented BOTH characters. When they wrote/drew their first Superboy stories, in effect they ignored their own published continuity.

That's merely one example out of hundreds that I could draw from DC's stable. Indeed, DC and Marvel both habitually ignore existing continuity, reinventing it as they see fit to meet current storytelling.

Star Trek provides another example, and a recent one. In the Comic Con last week, Michael Jan Friedman said that one of his novels, which describes the early days of Star Fleet, is being published in an omnibus volume. According to him, that book is already out of date, superceded by the new Star Trek: Enterprise series. Again, I'm rather sure I could pull dozens of e

 

How much you enjoy the EU is exclusive from what you think of its importance in the Star Wars hierarchy. Jades Fire described this commendably well above.

The quality of the EU is not a quantifiable constant, and really depends on how much you enjoy it. You can say that you enjoy the books more than the movies, and while I would disagree quite vehemently, as long as you justify your stance it is a perfectly valid argument.

However, the general structure of the hierarchy - movies above all else - is an undeniable structure. An argument that the continuity is established chronologically would be flat-out wrong.

Dewlanna in particular: I don't deny you to view the Prequels as being secondary to the books in the case of a contradiction, for the same reason I don't deny people their right to believe the world is flat. You can believe it all you want, but this is ignoring the one case in the canon-EU dichotomy that is an established truth.

It is called the Expanded Universe for a reason: it is built around the movies. Not through, not beside, but around them.

Take the number of people that have watched the Star Wars movies, but have not read the books. They are, to understate, numerous. Don't for an instance try to convince me that TPM made $430 million in tickets bought by fans who also read the books. That would be blatantly untrue.

Now, compare that to the number of people who have read EU, but have not watched the movies. Almost zip. Why? Because the EU builds upon the foundation set by the movies. The movies are prerequisite knowledge.

However, EU is in no way a prerequisite for the Prequel Trilogy just because it came first. This would be disrespectful to the legions of Star Wars fans and casual movie-goers out there who only follow the films. It is more important for the six films to flow with each other cohesively than to have them developed under "restrictions" set by existing expansion material.

Let us compare this to the other big franchise - yes, that's right, Star Trek.

After the release of Star Trek: Generations in which Kirk dies, William Shatner wrote several Star Trek Expanded Universe novels where Kirk is resurrected and assists Picard in saving the galaxy a few more times. Of course, this material is entirely contradicted later on by the release of First Contact and Resurrection. Hmm, I wonder which one takes precedence? Of course, Star Trek was already so rife with contradictions that this is all a moot point.

Let us look at another example: 2001: A Space Odyssey. Arthur C. Clarke developed his novel as a novelization of the script he worked on with Stanley Kubrick, based on his 1940s short story The Sentinel. The book predated the movie by a bit, and it is still commonly thought that the movie is based on the book, though the simultaneous development of the story leads to a lot of confusion regarding this. In the novel, the finale takes place in orbit around Saturn. In the film, it occurs amongst the moons of Jupiter.

Clarke decided to follow the continuity set by the film in the construction of the three sequels - 2010, 2061 and 3001. There was also a film based on 2010, but it was not part of the continuity set by 2001 "canon": the 2001 movie, and the novels of 2010, 2061 and 3001.

What is the important underlying concept here? Author's license. In this case, Clarke's. In Star Wars' case, Lucas.

If the Prequels really do continue to totally disregard the EU, the only valid solution for those who want to continue perceiving EU as an equal part of the continuity is to continue coming up with fixes and "patches". This will inevitably require dishing out little chunks altogether - something that has already been done with apocryphal works such as The Glove Of Darth Vader, and the "Infinities" labeling of some of the Tales. That would be the "lazy" way to do it, as many of you have pointed out.

And I'd like to say this: mak

 

Iron Parrot...
"And it's the value of the continuity that we are supposed to be debating here."

I will submit that outside of personal "enjoyment," the only value of continuity exists in a common benchmark for comparison. It is required in a franchise for the franchise's owner to decide several important items - neither of which are "right" or "wrong."

1. The first is whether or not there is to be continuity. There have been many successful franchises which do not follow an established continuity. For its entire life-span, Lucasfilm has chosen to have a set continuity.

2. If the owner has chosen to follow continuity, they must decide what is to be included. They have done so. In the beginning, prior to the creation of the Expanded Universe as its own franchise, things were much easier. Marvel was meant to continue the stories of the movies. The novels - Han Solo, Lando & SotME - all meant to fill in the before and after of the movies. There was no Expanded Universe, there was the Star Wars universe.

But, it all gets back down to a benchmark - What IS Star Wars. Well, Star Wars is the movies. No question about that. The Star Wars Expanded Universe is everything else not Infinities - no question about that. Infinities is everything marked with the symbol. No question about that.

There is great value in such benchmarks - now there is no confusion whether the Corporate Sector has any bearing on the saga. It's meaningless in the Star Wars saga. However, in the Expanded Universe, it accounts for some important events in Han's life. Same thing for Jaxxon. He's meaningless to the Star Wars saga. However, he teamed with Han, Chewie & Co. on several occasions. Does it matter how Vader found out Luke's identity in the Star Wars saga? Nope. However, in the Expanded Universe, both the Hunter and a disgruntled Rebel pilot were instrumental to that. What about the events after the movies. Those are meaningless to the Star Wars saga. However, there's a lot that's important in the Expanded Universe saga - Supreme Prophet Kadann's plot, Palaptine's son, the marriage of Han and Leia, etc.

That's the value of continuity - so we all know what has happened in the respective sagas - the Star Wars saga, the Star Wars Expanded Universe saga, and the Star Wars Infinities sagas.

 

Well said.

 

"apocryphal works such as The Glove Of Darth Vader"

*cough*

That's not considered to be apocryphal.

 

I agree with Dewlanna, but not necessarily to the same extent. I believe that since Lucas authorized all this stuff, that he should stick to it. I could personally really care less if little details are contradicted in the sake of a good movie, because those can usually be patched over fairly easily, and besides, such mistakes are made in the novels.

Example: MPKM's Black Fleet trilogy stated many times that Daala was still a big threat out there, and then the subsequently published Callista trilogy obviously disregarded that.

However, big stuff that will be noticed -- for example I've heard rumors that contradict fett and the mandalorian stuff -- that just shouldn't be. Ive gotta get off the computer now, don't have time to elaborate further this mintue.

 

"Example: MPKM's Black Fleet trilogy stated many times that Daala was still a big threat out there, and then the subsequently published Callista trilogy obviously disregarded that. "

Well accoding to the EC Daala decided to come out of retirement and she attacked the New Republic yet again,AFTER the Callista trilogy.

So that's why Ackbar still considered her a threat.

(Basically she decided that retirement wasn't a great idea after all,went to the Core,united the warlords there,and ruled over them.After the BFC she she attacked the NR once again...)

 

People have to remember...Lucas is busy just *making* his movies. He doesn't have some continuity expert sitting on his shoulder 24 hours a day. If he contradicts anything, he won't even know it. And even then, it would just bog him down if he paid attention to every little continuity detail. He can't have that. Not with the kind of flowing schedule he needs to get these movies out every 3 years. Star Wars movies take a lot of time, effort, and care. Sometimes, small things have to be skipped.

I can dig up my post from the Episode II forums if anyone wants to see it, but I pointed out that there was only about 6-7 "possible" continuity errors in The Phantom Menace ( and possibly the upcoming II and III ), and all of them -- with the exception of Clone Wars dating at this point in time -- can be easily fixed for the most part. Most already were, in the Ongoing comics.

 

unless he makes Mara Jade a male wookie I am willing to cut GL some slack on this subject.


???? I wonder if wookies have red hair..