I guess SOME interference with "God's plan" couldn't hurt...

I just wanted to jump in and ask if the Crusades and the Inquisition were a part of God's plan. Anyone?

 

Puppet,

Why don't you tell us what you know about the crusades and the inquisitions so we can determine if it was God's plan or that of men?

 

I wanted to post a topic about the methods that doctors go to in order to "save someone's life", but since I saw this thread, I just decided to add to it.

I wonder how when a medical team should stop trying to save a person. Medicine resorts to drastic measures to keep a person alive: respirators, extensive surgeries for those who are severely burned. I know the Hippocratic Oath requires a doctor to go to any lengths necessary to save a life, but how much is too much?

If a Mod comes in and believes this would work better as a seperate topic, then I will create a new thread. Though I'll have to think of an interesting title.

 

God's plan...

yeah...

The 9/11 WTC attack was "God's Plan"

The terrorist God's plan!

Please, God...save me from your followers.



*the above post was in no way a slam against Islam. So be cool*

 

I'm sure it won't take you more than a minute to find something that changed for good as a result of 9/11 if you keep history. Besides, human history hasn't ended yet, and perhaps centuries from now what is essentially horrible mass-murder now will have become the event that triggered a chain of events that will better the fare of mankind as a whole.

EDIT - as proof such things can happen, take a look at how European settlers and their later US offspring essentially wiped American Indians off the maps when the land that eventually became the US was theirs in the first place. Since then, the US have grown strong and have played a critical role in stopping Hitler and Stalin's threats to the freedom of us all, and the millions murdered in the first place so became the fundations on which billions were spared suffering and death at the hands of insane dictators.

 

I just wanted to jump in and ask if the Crusades and the Inquisition were a part of God's plan. Anyone?

Depends on whether you think man has free will or not. Once you know that, the answer is pretty obvious.

 

If you trust the tenets of religion, God has chosen ot let men their free will and yet knows that evil will happen, thanks to Satan's actions. Still he chose not to interfere, because life wouldn't really be life if there was only good. Think of it again the next time you won't give a beggar who really needs them the two cents you don't want to bother to give him, whatever the reason behind the non-act.

 

Please, God...save me from your followers.



Reminds me of something Gandhi said:

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

 

God is, for all intents and purposes, an idea. And an idea is just a representation of something else, which may or may not exist. God is not a piece of land or a chest of gold or a million dollars (or maybe God is those things to you! That which you worship is your God). Point is, God is a construct, created by men to explain the unexplainable. That's not to say that the idea of God isn't a representation (however distorted) of something that does exist.

I'm a Christian, and I don't ever remember reading anywhere in the Bible that God is omnipotent or omniscient (sp?). True, the creation stories (plural is important because there were two creation stories), depict a powerful God, but not one that knows all and sees all (sounds like God has a lot in common with Sauron, huh?)

In light of all that, I don't prescribe to Predestination. I think that the only explanation to the world as it exists today and throughout history is FREE WILL (in the truest sense of the phrase). God, for whatever reason, doesn't know what path we will take, or what choices we will make. God may be able to see many futures or all the consequences of our decisions, but God doesn't know until we make them what they will be. I personally think that God adjusts to free will, I think God changes with us, adapting to an everchanging environment (even though our concepts of God rarely change). The biggest mistake people make (religious and non-religious) is putting God in a box. If you believe in God or if you don't, no one knows what God is like - omnipotent, omniscient (sp?), holding back power, choosing what and when to intervene, etc. No one, not even those who wrote the Bible ever sat down with God and said "Ok, so tell me about yourself: height, weight, powers, how often do you use them, hobbies, etc." There was no Q&A time with God.

So as far as God's plan:
A couple of theories - God doesn't have one!
God has plans but they adapt to our decisions - "well if he decides that, then i'll do this" This is what I actually think happened with Jesus. God sent Jesus to make people realize what God wanted. When they didn't, then the plan changed to "maybe you're going to have to take one for the team to make some of them realize what I'm saying." I dunno, just a thought.
Some people think we're God's entertainment, but I don't.

So maybe everything that transpires does so according to God's will and at the same time not according to God's will.

Those are just my 2 cents. Any questions?

EDIT:
Also, followers are what make up a religion, for it would not exist without them to worship the idea at its center. I find the idea that Christianity is not only one who follows Christ, but there is an inferred relationship that supersedes a religious connection. After all, how many of us (or you) were taught that Jesus is our best friend and our father and our brother? That qualifies a deity on a personal, relationship level more than an otherworldly, all powerful, unapproachable level. Besides, it's my opinion that all the stuff in the Hebrew Scriptures should be left to those who wrote it and its intended audience - the Hebrews or Jews. If you're not Jewish, it really wasn't meant for you to follow. Sure it makes for interesting reading, but that's about it. Didn't mean to get off topic, but it has been addressed previously and I thought I'd respond.

 

This is my opinion. Assuming there is a god, because you running the guy to the hospital is part of gods plan. If god wants a person to be saved, he can do that with divine intervention, or by doctors healing him.

The same logic can be applied to many things. God may have intended for a guy on death row to be killed, and god planed it in such a way that we and not him would throw the switch. The pro life argument from a religious standpoint can be argued in the same way. Maybe God wants the fetus to be killed and won?t do it through other means.

If God has a plan, then he wants his plan to work, otherwise, what is the point of having one? So, if God is all powerful, his plan should be succeeding, otherwise he would not be getting what he wants and he would use his power to make it work. So if God has a plan, it must be happening. So what is happening is happening according to Gods plan.

Unless there is something he wants more than his plan to succeed.

Or if he even has a plan.

My personal belief is that there is no God, but if there is, then what I said above is what I would think.


Didn?t God say he was a jealous god?

Now the debate at hand

Being perfect does not mean that you are incapable of making a wrong choice.

So that means God could also make the wrong choice. God for all we know (believe?) may have made many mistakes. Would that somehow violate the whole all powerful all knowing belief that many have of God?

A man gets prays before going to bed. "Oh God, were we a mistake."

God: "Oh no..."

Also, are we still perfect? I mean if things that are perfect can make mistakes, then how do we know that we are no longer perfect?

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Reminds me of a 'Paradise Lost' quote. Forget it exactly, but Satan said something like "better to be yourself in hell rather than a slave in heaven" or something to that very effect.

Sorry for the long post, but please tear it apart.

 

Oh bleep, please forgive me. I didnt see that there was more than 2 pages to this topic, so aww man, sorry guys. My last post probably makes little sense to the debate at hand then.