Lit I think, if anything, Vector Prime should be the point of divergence from the sequel trilogy.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by IG_2000, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Condoning violence against the EU is against my principles. I only condone violence against those who would harm it. [face_cowboy]
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  2. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    the njo was awesome. TUF is where the old eu should end.
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  3. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Piffle to the thread OP. In preparation of the invasion, the Silentium have replaced Chewbacca with a droid replacement which is so advanced, it even has the Force presence of Chewbacca duplicated. When Chewbacca is destroyed they go into hiding because they assume the other heroes are all dead and so there is zero hope for the galaxy. They reappear two decades later and realise that they made a mistake and then hand the real Chewbacca over.

    Bang.

    Done painlessly.
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  4. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 8
    There is no version of the Star Wars universe where Star by Star didn't happen. Not for me, anyway.
  5. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    The EU has already been over-retconed
  6. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    The Star Wars Universe does not have a history of 'alternative universe' explanations for continuity the way Marvel, DC, Star Trek, and just about any fantasy or science fiction universe where the words 'time travel' are involved do.

    The EU, in its modern incarnation, has been held up as a single, uniform, coherent narrative, with anything not part of the canon explicitly labeled as such.

    Blowing that up is a huge move, as it annihilates the continuity not just of anything that might hypothetically threaten the ST, but everything in the Star Wars canon. That is particularly important considering the temporal breadth of the Star Wars Galaxy. That means something like TOR, and indeed everything in the way back time frame, is hacked off at the knees. I reference TOR in particular because that, economically, is a big deal. Video games have an ever-growing economic footprint, and while there were a number of reason why TOR failed to be the WoW-slayer Bioware dreamed it could be, it is worth considering what would have happened if it had - it could well have become the single highest-grossing actively issued piece of the Star Wars universe.

    Besides that issue, creating an ongoing split-universe scenario means Star Wars goes to war with itself, in much the same manner as Marvel's classic storylines compete with the Ultimates.

    Now, there is obvious harm to the EU by creating a break point at 25 ABY. It means excising from canon a vast quantity of material, presently about 50 novels and 1.5 comics series. That's an awful lot, no question, but it should be survivable for the continuity. The alternative is breaking up the universe into countless alternates based largely on past continuity errors. The total narrative of Star Wars would shrink to the point of uselessness.

    Indeed. To expand on this, we as fans of Star Wars, have already paid the retconning piper. We have accepted that the price of a single, overarching narrative is that it will be lumpy, occasionally twisted, and bear some oddly mutated fruit (hi Waru!) from time to time. This decision has been supported by the power that be, explicitly so in the case of herding the errant plot-points of TCW back into the fold.

    Blowing up the continuity is more or less guaranteed to anger a huge proportion of the hardcore, high-dollar Star Wars spending, EU fans. By contrast I think Disney can sell the fans on a break point at 25 ABY. That is admittedly an opinion with no non-anecdotal data to support it, but if I were a PR executive, I could make a coherent argument for setting the ST there. I can't think of any other point in the timeline where I could make that argument.
    Last edited by Mechalich, Apr 15, 2013
  7. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    fixed
  8. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    If I were a PR executive, upon finding out that SW fans expect all stories to conform to a unified and consistent narrative, I'd be flabbergasted. "These jokers actually expect these things to make sense?" I'd cry out in exasperation. Then, faced with a problem I frankly never expected to face, I'd make some phone calls and go through a pack of cigarettes (is tobacco still legal in Hollywood or does its use incur the death penalty?), and next time I showed up at Disney I'd propose that a company be hired to research the financial repercussions of angering the hardcore fans. We obviously want to maximize profits by selling as much crap as possible, but can we afford to lose the people who buy everything with SW on it so they can put it in chronological order on a shelf? Or do we have a product strong enough to make the money Lucas made through licensing without it being internally consistent? How many people buy the stuff just because it has that big "Star Wars" on the cover, and how many to specifically learn what these characters are doing after the cameras have stopped rolling?

    I'm sure Disney has made the calculation already, and there are handy graphs ready for presentation. Unlike you, I'm not entirely certain about the results, but I think most people within Disney would prefer to just ignore the EU. The question is: can they afford to?
  9. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    They can afford to build the Death Star in real life.
  10. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Well, I wouldn't put it past them to employ slave labor.

    The thing is, Star Wars has made insane amounts of money through licensing. The current model of a consistent universe expanded throughout all possible media is the most successful licensing model of all. I'm not saying that the fact that it's consistent is the sole reason behind its success, but it certainly is a big factor. Perhaps it's the biggest factor. I have spent insane amounts of money on Star Wars, and I'm sure most people here have as well. I'm sure they wouldn't toss the "chronological-order-shelving" demographic lightly. They'd love to, but they have to think this through.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Apr 15, 2013
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  11. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Considering all the other stuff they've canceled...
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  12. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    True. The climate is certainly one of war drums getting nearer, sounding doom for all that came before so that a new, far more profitable kingdom can rise. But, as Mechalich said, The Old Republic is kind of a barometer in this case. It was very, very costly, it's tied to the EU, and has the prospect of making money for a long time to come. As long as that is around, I can't tell whether Disney will decide to press the reboot button. Perhaps the game hasn't made a return profit yet, and they'll kill it the moment it does? Perhaps now that the work has been completed it's cheaper to keep it going without regard to what sort of future it has? I just I don't know.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Apr 15, 2013
  13. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    fixed
  14. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Don't forget that The Old Republic is not, like The Clone Wars, something George Lucas did because he wanted to and because he could, something he financed himself, and something Disney was originally founded to do, namely animation. Obviously, there's Warner Brothers in there and all sorts of murkiness. I can see how numbers told Disney to get rid of the whole thing. It's not like they have to worry about coming up with animated series.

    Whatever the numbers tell Disney about the financial reality behind the current licensing model as a whole will definitely play a part on whether they restart the franchise. The Clone Wars was a very idiosyncratic part of that model; I believe The Old Republic plays a more important role in it as a barometer.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Apr 15, 2013
  15. MRCynical Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2008
    star 1
    I wonder if, given George Lucas's previously-expressed views on the 'finality' of the Emperor's death in ROTJ as far as the films are concerned, whether Dark Empire might be non-canoned prior to the new films?

    Plus from the money point of view, there's no reason why they couldn't keep selling the NJO books even if the breakpoint is 25ABY (which I think is most likely). Rebrand them as Star Wars: Infinities maybe? Have a book or whatever in the EU (set maybe 20 ABY) featuring some cataclysm that 'greatly alters the currents in the Force'?

    Also bear in mind that the original, official plan was to make 5 seasons of The Clone Wars which has now been done. I suspect they just wanted to move the marketing budget away from the prequels era as part of the longish preparation for the new films. I wouldn't be surprised to see the anniversary editions of the rest of the Thrawn Trilogy appear, backed with a marketing budget, to get the post-ROTJ era back in the public mind again.

    Remember that it isn't just the US they have to worry about: Europe doesn't even have a release date for the Season 5 dvds yet, so if they made a season six it wouldn't be hitting the shops here until mid-late 2014. That puts it too close to Episode VII's 2015 release for Disney marketing people's comfort.
    Last edited by MRCynical, Apr 15, 2013
  16. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    Just because there hasn't been a "Crisis" style retconing crossover style event in Star Wars (and that a parallel reality was shot down by Lucasfilm recently) doesn't mean that it can't be pulled off. Star Trek managed to do that beautifully, something I wouldn't think was possible. I think it's the easiest way to make Dark Nest Trilogy or whathaveyou still "count" because it did exist at a certain point. Like all of the TOS episodes & onward are still canon in Star Trek (oddly, Enterprise is canon in both universes, an interesting quirk but you could apply that same thing to pre-ROTJ timeline) because when you watch "I Borg" or whatever, it's set before the point in the timeline where Romulus blows up. I will admit to being a big fan of these type of event comic-book retconning madness. And I'm not talking about something where it's mentioned in an aside in a conversation or clarified in a sourcebook to retcon something but a really big plot-specific threat, Anti-Monitor in Crisis or whatever. That would make whatever the Star Wars Retcon Bomb story a big frakkin' deal to check out, a tour of the post ROTJ EU as it blows it up and pieces it back together so we can happily sit down and watch Episode 7, continuity having been hammered and straightened back out again for the adventure that is about to play in the big screen. I'm not opposed to time travel or parallel realities being used in Star Wars, basically because we haven't seen that happen before. I do believe a time travel story (which would have the advantage of retconning the EU into Ep 7) would be able to fit more into the Star Wars thematic mold than other things that have popped up (like Ben and that gal who got all touchy-touchy with him in that novel or something). And I wouldn't want a branch off in two different directions because it would lead to one being more "real" than the other, and just flat-out severing the timeline at a certain point doesn't appeal to me as much as the potential for wacky retcon adventure craziness. I think it'd be a good way if not to keep everyone happy but to make everything still "happened". And then it didn't. Because of that... thing that happened! Remember that thing? That was quite the thing!
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Apr 15, 2013
  17. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    No. Every Star Wars fan has been exposed to retconning, because it's in the movies. Famously: Greedo shoots first. Any fan who watched the prequels old enough to be aware of special edition changes accepted retconning to some degree.
  18. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    True
  19. Amon_Amarth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2005
    star 6
    I don't know, it's true that the quality of this material is disputable, I still really enjoyed the NJO era. So hopefully, they will keep some of it intact. I don't think many people are disputing that Chewie will show up, but I don't find it very important. I just wish they would keep some EU characters: Mara, Jacen, Jaina and Anakin, the Fels...

    I admire this spirit a million! ;)
  20. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I hope we at least see one Vong and one of their ships. Hope to see Nom Anor. Anakin, Jaina, Jacen, Mara, Jag etc are needed.
  21. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Any kind of "Crisis of Infinite Coruscants", where we have time travel or parallel dimension hopping to explain a shifting continuity would be the greatest turn off for me I can imagine.

    That kind of barminess is perfectly acceptable to me in a franchise like Doctor Who, but to completely alter the way the SW franchise works for the sake of being able to say "Hey, it still happened before it was unhappened, we didn't get rid of anytying" is just.. urgh. You're perfectly entitled to your preferences, of course, but I sincerely hope they're only shared by a minority and that Disney/LFL never consider anything like what you suggest. Sorry. :p

    I'd much rather they just let the current cycle of SW EU retire with some dignity, if it comes to that.
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  22. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Multiple Continuities isn't Star Wars to me. That's the Superhero DC/Marvel stuff. Since Star Wars started the EU has pretty much been one continuity. Some stuff has been rendered lower cannon or non-cannon but no multiple cannons. I hope we get an answer to this question soon. If we get a whole timeline of books I hope they are all one timeline and don't split off in a thousand ways.
  23. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Hehehe.

    Cannon go boom.
  24. Random Comments Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2012
    star 5
    No. Heck, no.
    That's just...no.




    Getting rid of Vector Prime on would probably be the most logical decision (besides trashing everything, which Disney may well do. *shudder*)


    That's "canon".
    That goes for everyone.
    /grammar nazi
    Last edited by Random Comments, Apr 16, 2013
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  25. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Canon doesn't go "boom", you silly sausage. :p

    Show Spoiler
    Context: When someone misspells "canon" as "cannon" the only acceptable response in Lit is to draw attention to it by saying "CANNON GO BOOM", rather than actually correcting it.

    Last edited by Ulicus, Apr 16, 2013