Lit I think, if anything, Vector Prime should be the point of divergence from the sequel trilogy.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by IG_2000, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    If you admit that democracy is the best form of government we can practically have, then it makes no sense to say you're not a fan of democracy. At the very least that should be no reason for you to be defending portrayals of democracy that make dictatorship look like a superior alternative.
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  2. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Let's say I can only have nettle purée. That's all I have to eat. Day in and day out, I sustain myself solely on nettle purée. I'll eat it and be sick to death of it (most likely literally) if the only alternatives are poisonous mushrooms and thorny shrubs. Still, will I be a fan of nettle purée? No. I'll merely learn to stop worrying and accept it.

    I didn't say that democracy is the best we can practically have, just that this it shouldn't be abandoned. We live in a period where it's a best case scenario we must learn to embrace, but other circumstances would offer better scenarios. A tame representative democracy is what I believe most of the world needs at this moment. Any improvements are far from where we stand right now. And I am defending the portrayals on the basis of what I perceive as realism, not as tools to educate people about politics.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Apr 25, 2013
  3. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    1. The Senate spent said time period passing legislation to allow for the creation of new vessels, increased wartime powers, and general production. Thus the NR recovers from every single casualty it took during the whole war, a mere two years into said war. Their reaction wasn't unreasonable. It was callous, no doubt of that, but from a purely utilitarian perspective, the entire galaxy would have fell if they didn't withdraw into the Core.

    2. These are kids books? No. We have Kids books and Young Reader novels for them. These books are for adults. The issues raised within them, thus, at some point, have to engage adults. Bantam era novels, bar the X-Wing novels, perhaps, didn't do this and came off, eventually, as superficial arcs where nothing truly changed and consequentially popularity for Warlord of the Week faded. Kids, on the other hand, are likely to have been more than happy with those. So why shift to the NJO! Because the kids who had joined had became teenagers and adults, so the story evolved with them, and the EU diversified. These messages are particularly topical in a world which swings a little bit right wing every time something terrible happens. The prequels still gave us a message that democracy chose an Empire, remember. So we have to have a harmless environ in which we debate those things. Star Wars is more than diverse enough that there is something for everyone, so the NJO darkness hardly impacts upon the entirety of the franchise.
    Last edited by Sinrebirth, Apr 25, 2013
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  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    1)
    Where is the offense? How do you win a war without proper offense? Plus I didn't read much about "passing legislation to build military vessels" as you claim.
    I'm not criticizing the withdraw to the core much but the unwillingness to counter attack the Vong is as stupid as can be.

    2)
    These are pulp-SF novels, target group teenagers and beyond. And besides that, the EU exists to extend the universe created by the movies, and this universe stands on certain values. I say that drivel ala Heinlein has no place in this universe.
    Btw., if there was debate about the pros and cons of democracy I would be completely on board. Interesting topic. But democracy in the NJO is vilified as much as possible. There are only cons to see, no pros whatsoever. It is so bad that even Leia Organa, who is a very strong person, gives up on the Senate.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 26, 2013
  5. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    1. Agents of Chaos stated this.

    2. Such a discussion would be good fun, agreed. I have no idea what Heinlein is.
  6. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    You've heard of him, probably, even if its just through that song by Yes. Very influential sci-fi writer. Stranger in a Strange Land, the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Troopers...
  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Adult? Oh, if only. Sadly, lots of gore doesn't make a book adult, horror yes, but not adult. It was still kiddie fare with regard to consequences - politicians got away with it all, the Vong? All the bad ones neatly immolated themselves at the end. The Jedi? 50% attrition rate, but don't worry they'll be purged again soon for being stinking traitors. The Kyp-Luke schism? So lacking when it could have been so much more.

    I disagree that NJO and its successors hardly impact, though that effect may well have faded with time LOTF likely reinforced it. Frankly, I don't think SW EU should have gone in the direction it did, though NJO had its predecessors in BFC and XW3, both also guilty of excesses. Why? Because SW trying to do an adult SF epic is dumb, it isn't that and there limits to how far it can reinvent itself without losing much of what made it great in the first place. There's plenty of adult SF epics that can do this, why not read them instead? Personally, I'm just not a fan of the viciousness NJO et al inserted because it doesn't fit with the films, where there's a light tone to the violence, the most grisly bits are very brief - save for Vader's immolation and there I consider Lucas to have screwed up. SW violence is really just one-step up from A-Team violence, stormtroopers are shot once, they fall over and die painlessly. You want more realistic fare? There's no shortage of that, it just doesn't have the name Star Wars on it.

    Oh and Sinny what are you doing not seeing the glorious military porn come satire that is Starship Troopers? That's Heinlein right there, except he really took it deadly seriously and Verhoeven took the mick!
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  8. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    I never understood the difference between adult and young adult books. Of course, books intended for 7-year-olds are very different, but a young adult book only seems to be differentiated by POV (teenaged narrators), larger typeface, and maybe illustrations. When I was 12, all I wanted from a book was an illustration or two; that's what differentiated "adult" books from the stuff I read. Now, when an author describes a sex scene instead of implying one, I think: "Oh, he wants to make sure we know this is ADULT FICTION...." Other than that, I read some books supposedly intended for teenagers, and I wonder why they are supposed to be intended for teenagers when most people who read them are adults. Star Wars books fit that category, I guess.

    By the way, Heinlein submitted Starship Troopers to his juveniles publisher, but it wasn't accepted, so it was published as an "adult" novel. [face_peace]
  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Sadly, that does tend to be the mark of demarcation doesn't it? Oh look - shagging!
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  10. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Didn't you know it?

    sex = evil
    having your guts ripped out by a Yuuzhan Vong = okay
  11. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    There is the small matter of the Empire controlling the galaxy and its populace, anybody who did look into either? Likely would have been disappeared, ah no, wait, what is the modern term? Ah yes, extraordinarily renditioned!
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  12. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    with the right checks and balances democracy can work. problem is nobody had the right checks and balances. thye all have weak loopholes that corruption can take advantage of.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    nvm
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 28, 2013
  14. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
  15. Grand Admiral Crumb Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2013
    star 1
    What if checks and balances were your pocketbook? Can't have corrupt government if they can't get any funding! Though I have doubts a galactic "government" run entirely off voluntary contributions except of all of the planetary governments were as laissez-faire as that. Certainly you would need at least some sort of interstellar defense force at least, but who knows, maybe that could be comprised of planetary fleets. At least we don't have to deal with problems that large in the real world, we seem to have enough trouble not killing inordinate amounts of people on our own planet.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    nvm = never mind
  17. Crimson Zephyr Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2013
    "Personally, I think dictatorship is a better form of government in a time of crisis and/or war. Which doesn't make me a nutter, btw. Parts of democracy are suspended in war. The British Government suspended democracy for the entirety of the Second World War. The Jedi suspended democracy during the last four centuries of the New Sith War. So in that respect, the Empire probably looks like a great option. We're have decades of warfare on the cards. The Republic makes a royal mess from the Mandalorian Civil War onwards. I would be inclined to side with the Empire, to be honest... And then the Empire loses the plot, and the people decide they prefer democracy, now the crisis is over. Then another crisis occurs, and the Empire comes off smelling of roses again. The Alliance ends up influenced by those pressures, and it isn't until Daala that the mentality is completely torn apart once again (I hope)."

    This is completely ridiculous. Even at the best of times, the Empire was an autocratic and kleptocratic mess ruled by a military junta, most of whom were out of touch and unaccountable to the people they served. At the worst of times, they were a brutal terror state that responded to even peaceful dissent with planetary destruction, mass murder, and extralegal imprisonment. I wouldn't put a system like that in power, even with the hint of a possibility of a crisis because a government like that will not simply go away and relinquish power. The entire system is based on the accrual and concentration of power. And more to the point, in a crisis, or invasion, a tyrannical system like that would be fractured because of that tyranny. The Empire wouldn't have done any better against the Vong, or the Mandalorians, because the Empire treats its people worse than crap. The Vong (at least in the beginning) and certainly the Mandalorians, would have been seen (wrongly, but still) as liberators. Look at how large swaths of territory in the USSR willingly assisted the Nazis because they had been so abused by Stalin.

    Also, the UK wasn't nearly as anti-democratic during WWII as you make it out to be. Churchill replaced Chamberlain, and Attlee replaced Churchill while the war was still going on. In fact, the timeline of the war fit almost perfectly with the election cycle, so they didn't actually need to suspend regular elections. And despite leading the UK through its darkest hour, the British public still booted his party out of power once the war was winding down. They didn't need to turn their country into a skullcracking police state to win the war.
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