Is there a 'Separation of Church and State' in the Old Republic?

I couldn?t help but notice that there were several references of the Jedi Order being a religion of sorts. If so, how does it affect the Old Republic?

Palpatine in ROTS: If one is to understand the great mystery, one must know all aspects. Not just the narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi.

One simple word is what intensified my curiosity of the relationship between the Republic and the Jedi Order: dogma.

A dogma is an undisputable doctrine or belief held by a religion or organization.

Admiral Motti in ANH: Don?t try to frighten us with your sorcerer?s ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to? (and you know the rest)

Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that the Jedi/Sith orders are indeed a form of religious practice. If this is true, then do the Jedi simply serve below the Old Republic as a ?church? of crusaders that follow the Chancellor?s every command? Or is it that the Jedi Council is directly ingrained into the law and politics of the Old Republic in so much that the Chancellor and the head members of the Council work side by side?

Some might say that this discussion is another way of ?reading too much into the movies?. However, it seems to pose a major problem in the plot of Revenge of the Sith.

When Mace Windu tells Anakin that the Chancellor is not to ?meddle in Jedi affairs? this is a sign of a ?separation of Jedi and Repubic?. Why then does the Republic have such a hold on the Jedi that it can literally put any Jedi Knight in charge of a squadron of troops but cannot dictate what goes on within the council?

I just thought this to be a very interesting theory because it has so may implications to America and the debated ?wall of separation of church and state? and how both continue to play off of each other in politics.

Whatever you do, don?t turn this into a discussion about American politics but rather just about Star Wars. Thanks!

 

Well considering that the dictatorial head of the state (Palpatine)
is a Sith Master of long practice, off the top of my head, I'd say no.

 

But nobody knew that Palpatine was a Sith during the time of his election. Not even the Jedi.

 

There is in theory a seperation of church and state, however the Sith seized power and don't exactly care about what's legal. The Jedi Order lead the troops of Clones out of necessity and because the Jedi Order had been the ones that created the army in the first place as far as they know.

The Jedi Order feels, correctly in my mind that the Chancellor shouldn't be able to have a say in Jedi affairs because the Jedi have to deal with matters that are far greater than those the Chancellor as far as they know, can understand.

 

I think if you look into the pre-PT era...the 4000+ or so years BBY, it always describes how it's the Jedi and the Republic that fought the Sith. It goes to show there was a mutual trust between the Republic government and the Jedi Order. The Jedi would keep their hands out of Senate affairs, and the Senate would respect the Jedi. If there's trouble that goes on, the Jedi would usually take the initiative to resolve it, and the Senate would allow that.

But by the time of the PT, there's all that stuff with the Clone Wars and emergency powers going on. The Jedi don't like what's going on in the Senate, but keep their hands off, hoping it'll settle down after a while. When things get worse and worse however, they decide that Palpatine has to go.

 

Since the Senate seems to be based on the United States Senate and the old Roman Senate, I would assume that there would be a two party system with agendas and corruption. Hence there would be a conservative party equivilant to the Republicans and a liberal party equivilant to the Democrats. I would further argue that many of the same debates would exist in that Senate as it would in Washington, including seperation of Church and State.

 

so what you mean is that in order to become a leader in a goverment that seperates church and state, you can't openly belong to any religion somebody better tell Bush

 

I don't think many people in the Republic saw the Jedi as people devoted to an "ancient religion"

Religion is based on FAITH, or belief in one thing. The Force was something that existed and was hard to dispute against

By the time of ANH the Empire had run a good propaganda campaign and changed the people of the galaxies perception on this

 

It doesn?t matter if it can be proved or not. The Bible, the Torah and the Koran are believed to be proven true through archaeology and historical events. This is also true with the force; it is proven that midichlorians reside within the cells of many living creatures, but it is still sometimes regarded as fake and is played off as luck.

Several people in ANH say that anyone who was still a practitioner of the force is involved with a ?religion?.

Moff Tarkin: ?? you are all that is left of their religion.?

Han Solo: ?Hokey religions and ancient weapons ain?t no match for a good blaster at your side.?

Even the Jedi?s main place of practice is called a ?Temple?.

While it might not be a religion per se, it still is an organized group of practitioners who hold a belief that something higher than themselves dictates the way of all things. Close enough.

 

What defines a religion? From Dictionary.com...

n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

This seems to me to equate to the force. The "Will of the Force" is believed by the jedi to govern the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

The Jedi clealry fit this definition.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

Again, pretty much all Jedi had the same life and conditions.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

The Jedi code was a serious of beliefs that helped them be the Servents of the light side of the Force.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

The Jedi pursued their cause with much Zeal and unconditional Devotion


Jedi certainly are religious in every sense of the literal definition. The problem is, they serve the Republic. This brings the problem of the gaurdians of peace and justice of the republic being a very strong Religious Organization. Seperation of Church and state is indeed not solid.

Carnage

 

There wasn't a separation of church and state. The Jedi had decided to serve the senate and the republic as peace keepers. In order to be able to regularily collect blood samples of millions of infants on thousands of planets they had to have use of resources other than their own, a few thousand Jedi couldn't do that on their own. Most likely public sources of the member governments of the republic. What is more, their funding had to come from somewhere - since they are not allowed possessions and the order doesn't appear to be a mendicant order but rather seems to be quite well-off, it's very likely that they are tax funded. No involvement in government affairs, financial and personal independence are a however a prerequisite for a real separation of church and state.

They were in charge of the republic's armed forces - and you are telling me that the government shouldn't have a say in what they are doing with the republic's army? Is there any country at all in world in which the government does not have control over the army, not even a say in matters like that?

 

The Jedi did have unilateral authority over the army, at least until ROTS. They worked pretty cloesly with Palps regarding what to do with said army.

 

That's the thing about the Republic. Throughout its history, and throughout all the conflicts it has been through, the Republic could always count on the Jedi Order to come through on its commitment to peace. It was a trust that the Jedi earned throughout the millenia. The reason the Empire came to power is because Palpatine was able to manipulate events to erode that public trust in the Jedi, so that when Order 66 came around, relatively few people objected.

 

I think you are missing a detail here. Throughout the millenium, the Republic never before had an army, much less was there a war. Therefore there was no need for the government to have a say in Jedi affairs.

 

The Jedi's primary Oath was to serve the Force. This is their "religion" per se, the higher power which allows the Universe to remain balanced.

The Jedi also made a Pledge to serve the Republic. By the time of the Clone wars, the Jedi were caught between two evils - the Confederacy and a corrupt Republic.

They were caught in the ultimate "Jedi trap" by Palpatine and put their Pledge to serve the Republic above their Oath to serve the Force.

...be mindful of the currents of the living Force: to do one's duty is not always to do right. Concern yourself with right action. Let duty take care of itself.

Anakin recalling Qui Gon's instructions to Obi-Wan. ROTS Novelization p. 242

 

I have to agree with Dark_Jedi_Order, the separation of 'Jedi and Republic' is undefined. GL should shed more light on this subject.

 

I would think that the lack of denotative explanation
in the films lends itself to the idea
that it wasn't a major issue, given the thousands
and thousands of diverse worlds and their diverse
religions found in the senate.

 

Very true, but none of the other religions are as conformed (militarily speaking) to the Republic as the Jedi are. The Jedi Order is the only 'religion' that serves to defend the Republic.

My only question is; where is the line drawn between religion and government? Does the Republic fund the Jedi's food, housing, education, and transportation? Do the Jedi have a rightful legislative power in the Senate, and if not, why? These are questions that seem to arise, especially in ROTS. I'm just open to any ideas and rational thoughts that might explain this.