Lit JTTLJ: The Legends of Luke Skywalker

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Todd the Jedi, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. tatooinesandworm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2015
    star 2
    Show Spoiler
    What are we talking about
    Show Spoiler
    replicants
    here?


    ^seriously don’t open if you haven’t seen BR2049.


    Sent from my Ornithopter using The Force
  2. EmperorHorus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2016
    star 2
    Me neither. It's really dumb IMO.
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  3. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    For me it comes back to that sequence in I, Jedi. The book gets a lot of well-deserved crap thrown at it but it has some absolute gens in it too and this is one: Horn sims against Tycho, has the advantage of the Force to read Tycho's mind - and still only just wins! The way Stackpole describes how Tycho's mind works is just great.
  4. kalzeth Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2017
    star 1
    I can’t find it but I believe Pablo posted something about varying levels of latent sensitivity being responsible for genius in certain areas like luck and piloting.

    I don’t like it either but seems to have some backing by the powers that be


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  5. EmperorHorus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2016
    star 2
    Nah that's a completely different kettle of fish. It does seem as though the concept of "force sensitivity" has been complicated significantly in the new canon though. As in people can be "force sensitive" but not be able to affect or use the force.

    Back in the old canon you were either force-sensitive or you weren't, though some could be more force-sensitive than other. New canon at times seems to imply as though almost everyone is "force sensitive" to some extent, and how it manifests and to what extent is what varies.
    kalzeth likes this.
  6. BeesInABar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2015
    star 1
    I can kind of get behind that. It gives the Force a more egalitarian, less blood-aristocracy icky impact on the galaxy. Maybe someone like Poe or Chirrut can’t directly manipulate the Force, but it’s totally with them.


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  7. SateleNovelist11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2015
    star 4
    There's an argument to be made that the way they portray Luke, and many of the characters, in the Disney EU and the new films is all just a bunch of ripoff from the original, pure EU. That is not to say that all EU stories were good, but the majority were, IMO.

    The way we see Luke in the trailers for the upcoming film. He is jaded. He never wanted to have a life analogous to what Yoda suffered in Dagobah. We get that. But it's similar to the Luke of the Expanded Universe post-Mara's death. Having lost his wife, who taught him to be stronger in some ways, to his nephew, having survived the Imperial resurgence (wave after wave, Thrawn and petty successors), having survived the returned Emperor and the Yuuzhan Vong, having lost so much and now only having his son (albeit with Ben more mature and wiser than he once was), Luke is very different toward the end of the EU. Before his descendant, Cade arose, he was quite pessimistic. Some have described him as too harsh, too conservative, or too immersed in Jedi dogma. (I'm not saying I agree with Vergere and Lumiya, but I think they make a lot of good points. This is the authors speaking through the characters. Much like Sidious makes a lot of good points in certain, but not all, novels, the author points out the flaws of the so-called heroes.)

    So, Luke in the upcoming film looks like they are ripping him off from the latter EU. I'm not saying he's like the Force ghost of Luke that we view with Cade in that story. More like he was when he interacted with the Lost Tribe, Darth Krayt, Ben, Jaina, and Abeloth. Again, I'm not defending the Disney EU or the new films. I just look at them as alternative history from another dimension compared to the original EU. I think they rip off a lot of EU material for the Disney/Marvel comics and films. However, having said that, I would rather them make the attempt to do something original, even if it's good or bad, than incessantly rip off the old EU. I am fond, however, of how Vader is portrayed in the Disney comics, stories, etc. That's fairly consistent with the old EU, if not very. I don't think they translate Thrawn, Ventress, and other characters well. But I'm willing to forgive it, since I liked Ventress and Ahsoka kicking posterior together. ;)

    The Force is viewed as a living entity, and whether it has two sides is irrelevant. Darth Traya hated it and longed to destroy it. While Luke didn't come to that position late in the EU, he came to believe that the Jedi and Sith were bound by a mystical energy field that was not always benevolent. So, misotheism made its way into SW. Well, I think that's why we prefer existential individualism, whether it is absurd or not, over petty notions of ethical nihilism and ethical absurdism.
    Last edited by SateleNovelist11, Nov 12, 2017
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  8. Stymi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2002
    star 4
    Sure, but it's an extremely weak argument.

    Sent from my Moto X-Wing
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  9. Rogue Seven Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 2

    Sigh.

    I'm surprised why I need to break this down for you, but okay.

    No one at the Jedi temple in the Old Republic KNEW what the effects of a tree surrounded by so much force energy for years would/could do. It's WHY the Emperor took the damned thing when he conquered...he sent it to a LAB for experimentation...Luke find it in said lab....and decides to utilize it for a *gasp* experiment involving a pilot friend and her infant son...to see what it does. That the Old Republic Jedi DIDN'T know/realize is the bloody point man. The Emperor was always seeking ways to manipulate the force in strange ways to see what he could get it to do for him. The Jedi would never have done that.

    Yes. Exactly. That's why he took the thing to begin with. Why keep branches of a tree otherwise?

    These elements don't exist in a vacuum. They exist to serve a larger narrative. They don't just happen for no reason. They are written to serve a purpose. Like a Chekov's Gun, they are introduced so they can be referred to/used later.

    Successfully? If by that you mean they "didn't die", then sure...but also that his ship was so damaged that it needed repairs before the plot could move on? Also that. That's not remotely the same as what Poe can do and did do.

    You didn't get this line? It's a boast. It's an exaggerated story to make him sound better/cooler. It's not remotely true. It's like the Kobayashi Maru for Kirk. He can say he beat it...but he cheated to make that happen. Same thing here. Whatever happened at Kessel, is not that he simply ran it in 12 parsecs. It's something much more convoluted that allows him to tell the story that way. I assume we'll find out in Solo...but yeah, it's not just a cut and dried "he's just that good". The line is written as a boast.

    What Wedge can do and what Poe can do are in two totally different arena's of skill. Wedge is a methodical, and excellent pilot who, through years of experience, is the best pilot the Rebellion had. Poe's skill is on a totally other level. There has to be a reason for that.

    No one said there didn't need to be confirmation. But that confirmation doesn't need to exists to see the writing on the wall currently.

    And no one seems to want to answer the question of why Luke would give Poe's mother a force tree macguffin from a narrative standpoint. What reason is there to do that....bearing in mind that none of this story canon group stuff happens in a vacuum.
  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Rey references it too:

    Rey: "...The ship that did the Kessel run in less than fourteen parsecs!"
    Han: "TWELVE!" (shakes head in exasperation) "Fourteen (!)"

    Here, it's suggested that Han is boasting about his ship's ability to withstand short, dangerous routes:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Parsec

    Newcanon is contradictory on how honest Han's boast is:


    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kessel_Run
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  11. JediMara77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    So...the Legends of Luke Skywalker was a good book.
  12. unlimitedpower Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2014
    star 3
    Sure you can argue that the Jedi don't know about it, I give you that. But I was meaning to point out more on how absurd it will be for the Star Wars franchise/universe if all it takes to be a Force sensitive is to be born and raised near a Force tree. Suddenly, you can easily produce Force sensitives by making a nursery/hatchery around the tree. The Galaxy can then be populated with Force sensitives of the Jedi/Sith kind (to contrast with the more faith-like Chirrut kind). Same reason why the movies never talk about cloning a Force sensitive and when it did occurred in Legends it was treated as something extremely difficult to get right. Simply put, your hypothesis and cloning, applied without elaborating further limitation will "break" the Star Wars universe.

    For why Palpatine took the branches, you yourself said that he was always seeking ways to manipulate the Force and yes I agree. But that doesn't mean anything at all for the confirmation of your hypothesis that Force tree can induce Force sensitivity. Palpatine is a hoarder (as can be seen from the Dr. Aphra comic) that would experiment with any interesting Force-related objects even if those objects turn out to be useless in the end.

    Sure elements of story could serve a larger narrative but not all elements will or must. The Force tree branches from the comic could serve a larger narrative in the end or it could not. And how large will the connection be if there's a connection? Doesn't necessarily have to be a major connection, could be just "Nice to know".

    Why Luke would give Poe's mother a Force tree sapling? For me, I see no problem for it to simply be a sincere gift from Luke to Bey who is going to start a new life. It also nicely symbolizes Poe's parents start of new life. Of course, I can imagine this won't sit well with you who wants a more major/grand reason behind it.

    Now how about you explain why the possible clues in this book on Luke's viewpoint in TLJ are not good enough for you?
    Last edited by unlimitedpower, Nov 13, 2017
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  13. Wolfpack5 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I don't mind the "Journey to..." label when it involves actions leading up to the movie. In other words, "Journey to the Force Awakens" was OK when describing events which took place after E6 (such as the comic) but should not have been used for the pre-E6 stories. Similarly, "Journey to the Last Jedi" is OK in the comic, and I even don't mind it in the Phasma novel because that gives details and backstory of a prominent E8 character we know little about.

    But yes, the label is over-used.
  14. Wolfpack5 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I considered that story so important to the overall narrative that I was disappointed it didn't get mentioned in E7, and I hope it gets mentioned in E8.
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  15. TheAvengerButton Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 4

    On the matter of using the label, I think that's a big issue I have with the marketing. I personally think that all three Aftermath books should have had that label smacked on there, as ultimately the second and third books spent a lot more time tying the universe after ROTJ into the place it was at in TFA.

    I feel like this discussion probably warrants its own thread, since it has kind of overtaken this one.

    I think my favorite stories to come out of The Legends of Luke Skywalker are I, Droid (great title, by the way) and The Starship Graveyard. I, Droid in particular is a story I've been wanting to see for a long time in this new canon.
  16. Rogue Seven Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 2
    This assumes it can be any tree at any time, when this is clearly not the case. Remember that we are talking about a tree that sat at the heart of the Jedi Temple for 1000's of years...and that deep below said temple was ALSO a Sith temple/well of darkness. This particular tree was the epicentre of a very specific set of circumstances.

    -At the heart of a Jedi Temple for thousands of years of "force training/use"
    -Also located above a dark side Sith temple for those thousands of years

    These two branches are the last remaining aspects of what is likely a one-time special circumstance. To create another one would require all those criteria to be met...for another few thousand years.

    So no, they don't just get to plant a tree and have force users grow up around it. That's not how this is being posited to work at all.

    See above. No. A one time special situation that can't be easily replicated...is fine and breaks nothing. And unless someone more nefarious than Luke finds out about the two branches/trees and what they may have produced in Poe...they are safe in that specialness as a one time experiment.

    The Doctor Aphra comic proves my point. His hoarding shows how special he thought the trees were, as he kept them locked under such secrecy and guarding...it took Luke to get them out. They were important to him on a level that is not the same as everything else he collected.

    Nice to know is bad writing. You don't introduce things like this just as a "that's nice". You simply don't. If you do, you are a hack writer who doesn't understand storytelling.

    Yeah, this doesn't wash. It's like him giving away Vader's Helmet or lightsaber to a random friend. It makes ZERO narrative sense. Again, if this was just a "nice gift"...then I call bull...but then I've read Greg Rucka's work for years and he RARELY screws up narratives with one-off crap like that. So I feel there is more to it. I'll come back and admit I'm wrong if Poe ends up not as a force sensitive...but if he is, I expect the same quarter from you lot.

    I never said or implied they weren't. I said that the framing device didn't work in concert with the main stories to present me with anything worthwhile with regards to Luke going into this film.
    Last edited by Rogue Seven, Nov 14, 2017
  17. robotical712 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2017
    star 2
  18. unlimitedpower Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2014
    star 3
    Look, I really don't have time to reply to you with detailed arguments. Suffice to say that I found possible hints of Luke's worldviews/motivations in this book much more of a worthwhile connection than your hypothesis of Force sensitive inducing tree. The former is just way simpler, the latter requires conjectures upon SW lore and rules. Also, if you read Wookieepedia's Great Tree (Coruscant) Behind the Scenes section (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Tree_(Coruscant)), the tree saplings were originally going to be simply holocrons. Greg Rucka thought that would be boring so the Story Group gave him suggestion of using the tree. Rucka loved the idea because it is a metaphor for rebuilding the Galaxy. That suggest that the actual objects don't really matter for the story. Before you point out that the Story Group giving the idea means there is a grander plan, keep in mind that the SG function is not to lay out plots for authors/directors to follow like some grand architects (Pablo Hidalgo has emphasized this a number of times). Also, making Poe a Force sensitive actually takes away from his character imo because part of his appeal is because he is a top shot normal pilot like Wedge, Han, Hera*.

    *Funnily enough in the latest Rebels Recon, people think that Hera is an even better pilot than Poe.

    Ultimately, I just you think you're seeing too much into those tree saplings. I might be wrong of course but experience with the new canon so far suggest they're not going to be some major game changer for the ST. That any connection if any will be of the "nice to know" kind. And no, "nice to know" info especially in an expanded universes story doesn't mean bad writing/storytelling at all. What's bad storytelling is if the EU stories are required to understand the movies.
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  19. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Now... I wish to get back to the content of the book for a moment. I know that we should take anything we're told with a grain of salt, but didn't you find
    Show Spoiler
    all the Mist-Weavers business most intriguing? I mean, if it's true, these guys knew how to "weave" some sort of silk from the normally intangible strings of the Force. That's impressive on its own, but it seems they even managed to create a cocoon with time-altering properties. Surely the Emperor would have loved to know about that.
  20. Rogue Seven Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 2
    Oh look, the weakest and most baseless argument used at this site over the years....again....and again...and again...

    Just because the genesis of something happens in the EU, does NOT mean that it can't be introduced/touched on in the main movies and need some massive explanation for audiences to get it.

    The movies can just say Poe is a force sensitive. Those who don't know the EU info about the tree...don't need to. They have just been told Poe has the force, they don't need a convoluted explanation for why to be presented to buy that.

    That the genesis of why exists in the EU is the entire point. Anyone who digs a bit, will find out about it. Anyone else, will just accept it.
  21. unlimitedpower Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2014
    star 3
    Maybe the movies simply stating Poe is a force sensitive is enough. But I still don't see the point and purpose of making him one.
  22. JediMara77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    So about that Luke Skywalker, eh????

    What were everyone's favorite stories in this book?

    I'm torn between "Big Inside" and "Fishing in the Deluge." "Deluge" is what I imagined a typical Luke post-Endor story to be like. It could have come straight from Legends. "Big Inside" is more fantastical, but the stuff with the Mist-Weavers was really great, especially Luke's realization about people who make sacrifices. Plus, it had one of my favorite lines of the book: "I was once a moisture farmer. I can get water out of anything."
  23. Rogue Seven Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 2
    Because Star Wars.

    And because when (whomever do so), rebuilds the new Jedi order....we need some mains to be those Jedi.

    Unless the future of Star Wars is Rey is a Jedi, and no one else. Least of all anyone we know.

    That's a tad silly when they freely have such a badass older character to be trained as one.
    Last edited by Rogue Seven, Nov 16, 2017
  24. masterskywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2001
    star 5
    I have come to the conclusion, that due to my exceptional typing skills, I am in fact, force sensitive.
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  25. unlimitedpower Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2014
    star 3
    Here's something on-topic because I've been guilty of derailing the thread.

    I've found it interesting that the Force religions followers like Chirrut, Lyra, etc have exactly that trust of the Force that Luke find hard to obtain.

    Luke catching (letting it come) a big golden fish and forced to let it go: A metaphor for Rey?