Lucas and his right to make TPM (and the rest) his way.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Sep 10, 2002.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    If you don't mind having problems with the films, then there is no tragedy. I am just pointing out that not everyone has those problems.
  2. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    "It's sort of like when you get to the point where you stop blaming who you are on your parents. Sure they raised you, but that doesn't change the fact that you are the one controlling your own actions."

    Then, Go-Mer, under the logic of that analogy, wouldn't that make Anakin the one to blame? Is a parent who takes the blame for the actions of their adult child really being mature?

    But then again why am I asking you about maturity?

    "Well that's just too bad for you then isn't it?

    What's next? "I know you are but what am I?" If this place was your ball, I'm sure you would have taken it and gone home long ago.
  3. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Independence Day was a huge hit. (Made MORE money than AOTC...both adjusted and unadjusted.) But, people talk about it all the time as one of the biggest failures in recent times (from a writing standpoint). They like to make fun of the terrible dialogue, bad acting, and one dimesional silly characters. Sounds familiar, eh?

    What's interesting about that ferel, is that at the time, people ate up ID4. I remember loving the movie precisely because it was so cheesy. I didn't expect anything more than what I got.

    Some people think that it was somehow unfair to have gone into TPM or AOTC with expectations of greatness. Hell, many of us grew up with the OT, and having gotten older, realise that those films too have their flaws. Despite that, we still enjoy them, and were hoping to at least get something that was the equivalent of the OT. I and many others think that the PT falls short of this. I don't think this is anybody's "problem" per se, it's just that many of us see the flaws in the SW films widening - through plodding direction, shaky writing, mediocre acting, etc. Despite that, I personally find many things about TPM and (more with) AOTC to be extremely cool. However, those moments simply don't elevate the PT films to the level of the OT.

    I wasn't looking for a repeat of the OT, I was looking for something as well made, and I didn't get it. This isn't unreasonable. It's a hope that an artist and his vision remain consistent with his work, and hopefully, will improve with age. In my mind, the opposite has happened, and I find that to be a bummer.

    I'll still be one of the first in line for Episode III, though! :)
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Anakin is to blame for his own actions. Obi-Wan isn't trying to take the blame from him. He is taking the blame for HIS own action, which was to assume he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda.

    Also from where I sit, the prequels have been as well made or better than the classic trilogy. If you don't see it that way, it is only a problem if that bothers you.
  5. Menlu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2001
    star 2
    Menlu: "GL is not the one letting you down on the PT, you are."

    Stryphe: "OK, maybe Lucas isn't letting us down, but as to the later part of your statment: PPOR"

    Well as hawk said, it's ultimately all a matter of opinion (and I was never stating otherwise), and it is my opinion that you are the ultimate judge of whether a movie was good or bad.
    It's impossible to prove or disprove an opinion (which is why it is called an opinion), but look at any comment by a "Basher" or "Gusher," depending on how you define the terms.
    When a movie comes out, it is neutral. Then when a "Basher" responds to it, it will be negative. Likewise, when a "Gusher" responds to it, it will be positive. Thus, it all comes down to perception.
    How did you perceive the film? If you perceived it negatively, then the film was "bad" and flopped. If, however, you perceived it positively, then the film was "good," and it was a hit.

    JenX: "Then why didn't AOTC make more money then TPM?"

    Go-Mer: "For the same reason ESB made less than ANH and ROTJ made less than that.

    It's just the way sequels work."


    What Go-Mer said. When studying film series, the first installment will, statistically, be the strongest, and the proceeding will be the weakest.
    Part of TPM's success was because it was a novelty (i.e. the first SW film in sixteen years). AotC, however, is not really "new." It's basically thought of as the sequel to TPM.
    That being said, looking at IMDB.com's box office numbers, it appears AotC grossed about $600 million worldwide. I'd say that's a damned good return.

    Go-Mer: "Myself, I prefer to dwell on things I like, it makes me happier."

    Friend of mine once made an excellent point concerning personal preferences.
    He said that those who are content with something tend to be silent about it, while those who are displeased tend to be more vocal.
    That, I think, explains the Basher:Gusher ratio on this board. It's not that more people disliked TPM, just that more of those who disliked it are being vocal about it, while a majority of those who liked it are sitting back and enjoying the movie instead of talking about it on message boards.
    That being said, does this make any party more correct than the other? No.

    TradjiStation: "I personally find many things about TPM and (more with) AOTC to be extremely cool. However, those moments simply don't elevate the PT films to the level of the OT."

    There's the OT trump card again. Why does everything concerning the PT have to be compared to the OT? Why can't one judge the PT on its own merit?

    "I wasn't looking for a repeat of the OT, I was looking for something as well made, and I didn't get it."

    Maybe it's just the way you worded that sentence, but it sounds to me like you contradicted yourself there.
    On one hand you are saying you didn't want to see a repeat of the OT, but on the other, you want to see something as well-made. So by that reasoning, you do want something like the OT in terms of quality.
    Or do you mean you don't want something similar content-wise?

    Go-Mer: "Also from where I sit, the prequels have been as well made or better than the classic trilogy."

    I agree that they were well made.
    I did not go into TPM expecting the OT; I judged it on its own merit. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it more.



  6. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    OK, I'll catch up with everyone's comments a bit later, but for now, the following reply on earlier comments:


    Obi-Wan is trying to get Luke to Yoda, it not the right time to go telling him the past.

    He spends a good ammount of time talking about the past, referring to Yoda as his teacher, even after Luke is there. Never gives a dime's credit to anyone but Yoda. Lucas will change this, though, he'll add dialog about QGJ in the OT, and it will make more sense. He knows that as it stands, it doesn't make much sense. Mark my words, the OT will not be QGJ-less in 2006.

    To better understand my frustration, let me ask you a question -- what would you say if in Episode 3: A Big Explosion, Obi-wan reveals that Anakin spent his entire training time from TPM to about a year before AOTC training as Yoda's padawan?


    Their objective is to justify their petty complaints any way they can, reason and logic be damned.

    I don't have 'petty' complaints. Had TPM impressed me like ROJ or FOTR, I wouldn't complain.


    For every single fan who can't stand a new SW movie, 2 more new fans are born to take their place.

    AOTC box office receipts sure didn't reflect that. Smallest profit margain for a SW movie yet.


    For the same reason ESB made less than ANH and ROTJ made less than that.

    I read a recent quote from Lucas saying that ESB made less than ROJ (TV Guide, the week that had the R2 under the dome article).
  7. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    He spends a good ammount of time talking about the past, referring to Yoda as his teacher, even after Luke is there. Never gives a dime's credit to anyone but Yoda. Lucas will change this, though, he'll add dialog about QGJ in the OT, and it will make more sense. He knows that as it stands, it doesn't make much sense. Mark my words, the OT will not be QGJ-less in 2006.

    Oh yeah let me see
    Obi-Wan: "There you will learn from Yoda. The Jedi Master who taught me."
    Forgive but thats hardly going over much of the past is it. Thats hardly a good amount of time.
    Again you forget the situation. He had to be brief. Not be over explanatory.

    And I doubt he will change anything there is no need to. You should use logic intead of looking for problems that you know can be simply fixed.

    [inappropriate flaming comment removed]
  8. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I'd love to call you an idiot but its flaming.


    So is that. Is it sufficient for me to remind you to be civil, or would you prefer I contact a moderator?
  9. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    TadjiStation: "I personally find many things about TPM and (more with) AOTC to be extremely cool. However, those moments simply don't elevate the PT films to the level of the OT."

    There's the OT trump card again. Why does everything concerning the PT have to be compared to the OT? Why can't one judge the PT on its own merit?

    Well, there was a greater context to what I was saying in the previous post, Menlu, and that was that an artist should always try to better himself or herself in terms of artistic expression. As I debate from a filmic perspective (and this is the way I judge ANY movie, including SW) it's my humble opinion that Lucas has stepped backwards as a filmmaker.

    Lucas established a level of quality with the OT that helped cement its monetary, social and artistic success. It follows then that he should be able to improve upon this with age and experience. What I find when I look at TPM is even worse acting than the OT, sloppy editing and pacing and an overall sense that Lucas is essentially painting by the numbers. With AOTC, I see an artist who has overcompensated for those flaws in TPM with a rapid fire pace that doesn't let the characters (Better acted this time around) develop into real people. This is especially true of the budding romance intercut with Obi-Wan's journey to Kamino. We're not allowed to truly share in the love that Anakin and Padme are falling into because we don't focus on it long enough. Obi-Wan's discovery of the clone army on Kamino loses it's impact because the sequences are generally rushed so we can get to the inevitable Obi-Wan / Jango Fett fight. Despite the fact that I really enjoyed AOTC, I would have been more satisfied if Lucas let it run on for three hours to flesh characters and events out more.

    "I wasn't looking for a repeat of the OT, I was looking for something as well made, and I didn't get it."

    Maybe it's just the way you worded that sentence, but it sounds to me like you contradicted yourself there.
    On one hand you are saying you didn't want to see a repeat of the OT, but on the other, you want to see something as well-made. So by that reasoning, you do want something like the OT in terms of quality.
    Or do you mean you don't want something similar content-wise?


    I wanted something similar in terms of filmmaking quality and character development. I've not seen that so far. The PT has either focused too much on the incidental (Anakin's early childhood, Jar Jar Binks) or not enough on the important (The real strength or presence of the Sith, Obi-Wan's and Anakin's "friendship", Shmi's death and it's impact, the love story of Anakin and Padme, etc.)


    I agree that they were well made.
    I did not go into TPM expecting the OT; I judged it on its own merit. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it more.


    I certainly understand this position. We just critique these films based upon a different set of values and tools.

    :)
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No, it is just that we have different findings based on the same criteria.

    The prequels so far have had acting that I would say is at the very least on par with the classic trilogy.

    Ian McDiarmid, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGreggor, Hayden Christiensen and Natalie Portman all gave great performances that made up for Jake Lloyd, the guy who played Ric Olie, and the guy who played Panaka.

    When you say you aren't allowed to feel the emotion between Padme and Anakin, I suggest you aren't allowing yourself to feel it, because I had no problem with it myself.

    When you get right down to it, most of the backlash that pretends to be holding the prequels up to the same standard as the classic trilogy is really holding it up to a higher standard that even the classic trilogy wouldn't pass.

    Call it losing your inner child, call it growing more cynical, call it being better versed in the way movies are made, but the bottom line is we didn't get hung up on every little thing in the classic trilogy and so we accepted it into our hearts and never asked it to leave. Since then, our "better taste" went on duty, and now some of us can't get into a new SW movie if our very lives depended on it.

    To tell you the truth, I don't think there are very many people on this planet who can think on the level George Lucas does, and at least from my perspective you guys sound like a bunch of second rate amatures when you act like you could correct what he is trying to do.

    I know I couldn't.
  11. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Ian McDiarmid, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGreggor, Hayden Christiensen and Natalie Portman all gave great performances that made up for Jake Lloyd, the guy who played Ric Olie, and the guy who played Panaka."

    when episode III comes out you will be saying the actors in it gave great performances that made up for natalie portman, hayden christiensen, etc.

    by the way gomer i think you just bashed TPM!

    i knew you couldnt hide your dislike of jake lloyd forever.

    what else was bad about TPM that AOTC made up for? (a list would be nice)


    "from my perspective you guys sound like a bunch of second rate amatures when you act like you could correct what he is trying to do."

    a bunch of second rate amateurs COULD correct what he is trying to do. they could also probably make better films than TPM.
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Like -you- know what you are talking about in this instance.

    I have always contended that if Jake Lloyd had acted any better, I would never believe his character fathers Mark Hamil's character.

  13. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    I doubt it DrE.

    And anyway you can't make it better. Because that is the story, whether you like it or not.

    And Gomer i agree with you. Somehow some of the fans have lost how to appreciate George Lucas' Star Wars. Its no longer good enough for them. They've moved on but havent recognised it and clinged on to the OT.
    The PT may not be what they wanted but then again it not important about their wants, nor my wants or anyone elses wants except of course for George Lucas.
    Its funny how the people disappointed with the prequels bash Lucas, the actors and anything to do with the film. Thats right external attacks, blame everything on the outside for your disappointment.
    But what about your expectations? Your ideas? And how you viewed what exactly the prequels would be when you awaited TPM?
    You yourself are the reason for disappointment. Internally it was your thoughts, ideas, "theories" and expectations that ruined TPM for you.
    I no doubt reckon some you will say that isn't true that you had your expectations but they were hardly the source of diappointment then go on to say Jar Jar was the problem, George Lucas was the problem. All nice external complaints but not the core source of things.

    Maybe I'm reading it wrong but alot of factors lead to some fans disappointment. Nostalgia, the time between trilogies, the SW books which spoke of the past, fans own ideals and expectations.
    How could George Lucas' tale, yes GEORGE LUCAS' tale compete with those problems?
    Simply put. It could not. His story was always going to disappoint some.
    You could blame everyting that went ito TPM and AOTC but they aren't the reasons some fns were upset and seemed to think Lucas, who didnt create Star Wars for anyone else but himself, betrayed them.
  14. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    No, it is just that we have different findings based on the same criteria.

    Fair enough.

    The prequels so far have had acting that I would say is at the very least on par with the classic trilogy.

    I'd say the OT eeks out ahead. We can agree to disagree. :)

    Ian McDiarmid, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGreggor, Hayden Christiensen and Natalie Portman all gave great performances that made up for Jake Lloyd, the guy who played Ric Olie, and the guy who played Panaka.

    It's hard to go wrong with Ian McDiarmid. He's extremely natural, and probably doesn't require much direction. As for the rest, I just can't swallow their performances. Natalie Portman's performance was poor, by her own admission, and it's not her fault. She's a very good actress, but most likely requires a director to engage her into giving a performance. She's a bit freer andmore natural in AOTC (thank God), but still looks like she's really searching for the larger meaning behind all of what she's talking about. Hayden Christiansen and Ewan McGregor were okay. Serviceable, but not great.

    When you say you aren't allowed to feel the emotion between Padme and Anakin, I suggest you aren't allowing yourself to feel it, because I had no problem with it myself.

    I'm not sure how to answer that except to say: "No. That's not it at all" Were you to know me personally, Gomer, you would know that I get quite emotional at movies. Yes, LOTR make me misty after Gandalf's death. Yes, I cried during Titanic. That's because these movies made me feel certain things. They conveyed emotions clearly, and yes even manipulatively (but that's what movies essentially do anyway). SW has never effected me in this fashion. It should also be noted that I'm a lover of film in general, and, from a critical standpoint, that's quite a bit different than being a SW fan.

    When you get right down to it, most of the backlash that pretends to be holding the prequels up to the same standard as the classic trilogy is really holding it up to a higher standard that even the classic trilogy wouldn't pass.

    If you're suggesting that my childhood memories of SW have somehow clouded my judgement as a film lover and maker, then you're sorely mistaken. I judge any SW film based upon how I see it now, not how it made me feel 25 years ago as a child. Further, by making this statement, you're basically saying that Lucas couldn't go beyond himself artistically with the PT. To which I say, nonsense.

    Call it losing your inner child, call it growing more cynical, call it being better versed in the way movies are made, but the bottom line is we didn't get hung up on every little thing in the classic trilogy and so we accepted it into our hearts and never asked it to leave. Since then, our "better taste" went on duty, and now some of us can't get into a new SW movie if our very lives depended on it.

    This is simply not true. For me, SW was not something that represented perfection of any kind, either as a film or a story. I didn't grab onto the OT as the penultimate filmic expressions, by which every other movie I'd ever see would be measured. Far from it. To suggest otherwise is to lend SW far to great a positive spin in my own experience. The OT were a series of good movies. That's all. I found then entertaining as a child, but nothing so special that it monopolized my world. I had Star Trek for that. :p

    I know that SW movies are nothing more than candy coated space western fluff. The earlier ones are executed with better command of the medium of film, IMHO. My enjoyment of these movies has as much to do with how well they're made as it does their content. I love the universe that Lucas has set up. It's a lot of fun. However, I'm immediately removed from it when I'm subjected to editorial sloppiness or the occasional scatalogical or pop culture reference, opr anything else that points to the here and the now. This is not "my problem" Gomer. As an artist, I see this as an observable trait that Lucas is currently displaying. He's gotten older
  15. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Tadji, you took the words out of my mouth. Bravissimo!
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Go-Mer (before): No, it is just that we have different findings based on the same criteria.

    TadjiStation: Fair enough.

    Go-Mer (before): The prequels so far have had acting that I would say is at the very least on par with the classic trilogy.

    TadjiStation: I'd say the OT eeks out ahead. We can agree to disagree. :)
    />
    Go-Mer (before): Ian McDiarmid, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGreggor, Hayden Christiensen and Natalie Portman all gave great performances that made up for Jake Lloyd, the guy who played Ric Olie, and the guy who played Panaka.

    TadjiStation: It's hard to go wrong with Ian McDiarmid. He's extremely natural, and probably doesn't require much direction. As for the rest, I just can't swallow their performances. Natalie Portman's performance was poor, by her own admission, and it's not her fault. She's a very good actress, but most likely requires a director to engage her into giving a performance. She's a bit freer and more natural in AOTC (thank God), but still looks like she's really searching for the larger meaning behind all of what she's talking about. Hayden Christiansen and Ewan McGregor were okay. Serviceable, but not great.
    />
    Go-Mer (before): When you say you aren't allowed to feel the emotion between Padme and Anakin, I suggest you aren't allowing yourself to feel it, because I had no problem with it myself.

    TadjiStation: I'm not sure how to answer that except to say: "No. That's not it at all" Were you to know me personally, Gomer, you would know that I get quite emotional at movies. Yes, LOTR make me misty after Gandalf's death. Yes, I cried during Titanic. That's because these movies made me feel certain things. They conveyed emotions clearly, and yes even manipulatively (but that's what movies essentially do anyway). SW has never effected me in this fashion. It should also be noted that I'm a lover of film in general, and, from a critical standpoint, that's quite a bit different than being a SW fan.
    />
    Go-Mer (before): When you get right down to it, most of the backlash that pretends to be holding the prequels up to the same standard as the classic trilogy is really holding it up to a higher standard that even the classic trilogy wouldn't pass.

    TadjiStation: If you're suggesting that my childhood memories of SW have somehow clouded my judgement as a film lover and maker, then you're sorely mistaken. I judge any SW film based upon how I see it now, not how it made me feel 25 years ago as a child. Further, by making this statement, you're basically saying that Lucas couldn't go beyond himself artistically with the PT. To which I say, nonsense.
    />
Go-Mer (before): Call it losing your inner child, call it growing more cynical, call it being better versed in the way movies are made, but the bottom line is we didn't get hung up on every little thing in the classic trilogy and so we accepted it into our hearts and never asked it to leave. Since then, our "better taste" went on duty, and now some of us can't get into a new SW movie if our very lives depended on it. />
/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>
  • hoth-nudist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2000
    star 3
    Menlu, Gomer, I understand you all(PT gushers) think that these views are our (PT bashers/frusterated fans) opinions of GL's directorial skills. But they are becoming very POPULAR opinions....fast. I am totally dissatisfied with the PT thus far but I was hoping my 12y.o. brother would enjoy it so I could possibly enjoy vicariously thru him. He was 9 at the time of TPM. To this day even he detests the PT and loves the OT and no I did not influence his decision. He also told me his friends also disliked TPM, some like AOTC but not all. This is really depressing that this is going on in my area. I havent heard many positive reviews from people about the PT. I remember telling people at my workplace that I was going to see AOTC again and most of them asked me "What do you see in that s#$%!" and "just wait to see it at the dollar theater, it aint worth it." These are remarks from casual fans and non-fans that were curious. I think GL was lucky for AOTC to barely reach 300 mil. I also believe that if you took out the numerous times gushers went to see this film, it would have been lucky to clear 175-200 mil. Yes people saw the OT movies over and over, but if you apply the inflation rate/movie price increase since 1983, Im sure the OT would have made almost twice as much as it had today.
    Yes I agree with the acting flaws. Im just glad princess leia didnt inherit her mothers monotone and lack of enthusiasm and intensity. But yeah tadji's right its not natalie's fault, its George Luca$$$$'$!
  • DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Somehow some of the fans have lost how to appreciate George Lucas' Star Wars. Its no longer good enough for them."

    no. its just no longer good. period.

    Its funny how the people disappointed with the prequels bash Lucas, the actors and anything to do with the film. Thats right external attacks, blame everything on the outside for your disappointment."

    on the outside? so now the director and actors have nothing to do with what is good or bad about a film? criticizing those essential parts of the films is hardly grabbing at straws.

    "But what about your expectations? Your ideas? And how you viewed what exactly the prequels would be when you awaited TPM?
    You yourself are the reason for disappointment. Internally it was your thoughts, ideas, "theories" and expectations that ruined TPM for you."

    wrong again, actually it was the unispired nature and clumsy execution of just about every important element of filmmaking that ruined TPM for me.

    "I no doubt reckon some you will say that isn't true that you had your expectations but they were hardly the source of diappointment then go on to say Jar Jar was the problem, George Lucas was the problem. All nice external complaints but not the core source of things."

    hello? how are complaints about the director and a main character "external complaints"?

    "How could George Lucas' tale, yes GEORGE LUCAS' tale compete with those problems?
    Simply put. It could not. His story was always going to disappoint some."

    some maybe, but not as many as he ended up dissappointing. maybe if he took some time in the 16 years he had to think about TPM, to actually work on it, he could have avoided many of his mistakes.

    "You could blame everyting that went ito TPM and AOTC but they aren't the reasons some fns were upset and seemed to think Lucas, who didnt create Star Wars for anyone else but himself, betrayed them."

    i dont think lucas betrayed anyone, i think he made two crappy movies that could have so easily been great, with very little effort. again we get the "lucas raped my childhood" style arguments from the same people who fabricated the comment in the first place.


  • hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I think some people can't handle the fact that SW is no longer as good as it was. I can't! That's why I am here. But I can't kid myself and pretend that this tripe is good. I sort of did that after seeing TPM the first time. I walked out a little shocked. I told my sister it was "good" but I had this pit in my stomach swimming with despair. I eventually admitted it to myself and I am happy that there are others who feel the same way. I now know it isn't 'me'. I have heard too many of the same stories in my own life of people really turned off by this movie.

    Some people find it too hard to admit it to themselves that this movie is no good. I do think there are some who geniunely like it. But those who are still posting here after two years defending the film are more than likely still trying to convince themselves. It's wasted time. I just wonder if one day, when they are older and don't care as much, they will chuckle at how they devoted all this energy into a film that is sub-par. I know I think everyday I am wasting my time bagging the film here but it is fun here sometimes especially in the Basher's Sanctuary where I feel like I am talking to rational, open-minded people.
  • hoth-nudist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2000
    star 3
    I agree with what Darth Stryphe said a few page back:
    "The only bad choice I see a jedi master make in AOTC(regarding Anakins training) is to send an ill-prepared student off with a woman he's got a crush on. Who's idea was that? Palps? yoda and mace. who objected? ben."
    What doesnt make any sense is that masters obi-wan, yoda and mace discuss anakins arrogance and flaws together and obiwan senses Anakins feelings toward padme in the first part.....Later Yoda can sense Anakins intense feelings of anger(the tusken raider slaughter) light years away while meditating but cant seem to sense anakins intense feelings for padme(shmoozing on Naboo). The council has expressed reservations about anakins progress toward becoming a knoght, yet they send him alone on an important mission to escort padme back to naboo to hide(Gee the assassins would never look there, its only her home planet!)
    That script needed much proofreading! I cant believe (well, now I can) GL allows these heinous things slide in his stories, especially while butchering away in his beloved editing room.
  • Menlu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2001
    star 2
    Go-Mer: "When you get right down to it, most of the backlash that pretends to be holding the prequels up to the same standard as the classic trilogy is really holding it up to a higher standard that even the classic trilogy wouldn't pass."

    Agreed. There's no way any film could have stood up to the ungodly hype placed upon TPM.

    DrE: "a bunch of second rate amateurs COULD correct what he is trying to do. they could also probably make better films than TPM."

    Pure opinion. And if "a bunch of second rate amateurs" could make a better film than the PT ones out now, then let's see it.

    DarthTerrious: "The PT may not be what they wanted but then again it not important about their wants, nor my wants or anyone elses wants except of course for George Lucas."

    Well said. I have my problems with TPM, but it's not my or anyone else's place to tell GL how he should make (or remake) his films.

    "You yourself are the reason for disappointment. Internally it was your thoughts, ideas, "theories" and expectations that ruined TPM for you."

    Thank you! This is exactly what I have been trying to say.

    TadjiStation: "you're basically saying that Lucas couldn't go beyond himself artistically with the PT. To which I say, nonsense."

    Perhaps, but the only one who can truly know this is GL himself.

    Go-Mer: "What are these pop culture references and 'editorial sloppiness' you say you were 'subjected' to?"

    The only pop culture reference I can think of is Jar Jar's "Exqueeeeeze me" line. While I didn't care for it one way or the other, I remember people laughing in the theaters when he said it, so obviously some people enjoyed it.

    hoth-nudist: "Menlu, Gomer, I understand you all(PT gushers)"

    Well, I cannot speak for Go-Mer, but as I have said many times, I am not a Gusher. As I said earlier in this same reply, I have my problems with TPM and SW. And when I see someone commenting on those problems I will agree with them. By the same token, when I share a positive opinion about TPM and SW, I will agree with them as well. In this thread, there are things said by those you call "Gushers" that I both agree and disagree with, and I comment on them accordingly.

    "think that these views are our (PT bashers/frusterated fans) opinions of GL's directorial skills. But they are becoming very POPULAR opinions....fast."

    As I stated earlier (in this thead, I believe), I think that those dissatisfied with something tend to be more vocal than those that are content. What you call an opinion that is quickly becoming popular, may just be those who were dissatisfied but silent beginning to speak out.

    "I havent heard many positive reviews from people about the PT. I remember telling people at my workplace that I was going to see AOTC again and most of them asked me "What do you see in that s#$%!" and "just wait to see it at the dollar theater, it aint worth it." These are remarks from casual fans and non-fans that were curious."

    Hmm, guess it's just where I live and whom I associate with, but I have heard few (if any) negative reviews of TPM or AotC.

    DrE: "no. its just no longer good. period."

    DrE, you have a knack for twisting opinions into facts. An opinion is neither right nor wrong. Just because you no longer think it is good does not make it a universal truth.

    "on the outside? so now the director and actors have nothing to do with what is good or bad about a film? criticizing those essential parts of the films is hardly grabbing at straws."

    No, his point (and mine) is that the film that the people directly involved in making is put out there as a neutral entity. How it is ultimately judged, is a matter of individual opinion.

    "wrong again, actually it was the unispired nature and clumsy execution of just about every important element of filmmaking that ruined TPM for me."

    You just proved his point, DrE. You said those things ruined it for you
  • DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    I don't believe I'm in denial.
    The prequels are fantastic (I say that with enthusiasm, you might not recognise that :p ) and as I've explained in many a post are why I became a fan.
    So you think that me as a new fan is in denial? That I'm not really a Star wars fan, that I'm just liking the prequels because I can't find anything else to like. [face_laugh] totally laughable.

    The reason the prequels aren't as popular and to people's tastes is because they have moved on and you got used to the original trilogy and all its quirks & nuisances. Nevermind the bad dialogue, some bad acting etc. You grew up loving it and convincing yourself that Star Wars was higher than it actually was. Now you have seen 2 prequels and are bought back down to earth to view what Star Wars really is. Bad dialogue, bad acting etc. And you don't like it. Thats too bad.

    Like you were with the original trilogy I don't see the bad dialogue and bad acting, I see Star Wars, I see fun encapsulated in a 2 hour movie. I don't care or all the problems you just have to moan about.
    The prequels are my Star Wars, as the originals were yours.

    The only problem some fans have today is that they continue to compare 2 trilogies of the same damn thng. All 5 (soon to be 6) episodes are of the same quality and the same brilliance.

    At least there is one very happy man out there, one that matters. George Lucas. He is creating the saga the way he has always done and he is doing exactly what he wants. Great for him, he has no stupid movie executives on his back and he can do the story as he wants to do it.


  • hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Menlu,

    You are suffering from the same illness DrE is, hawk. You are trying to take your opinions and apply them as universal truths.
    I am not in any kind of so-called "denial" about TPM.
    My reasons for enjoying it are just as legit as your reasons for disliking it.


    I didn't say you were in denial. I suggested that there were people out there who perhaps can't accept that they don't like TPM. If you want to lump yourself in with these people, it is you who is doing this not myself.

    So those who are not Bashers are being irrational and closed-minded? I believe I made a similar comment about the opposite being true and I was called for trolling. Guess that makes you a troll in this case, as well.

    I never said this. I just pointed out that the people in the Sanctuary are open-minded. I did not make any assumptions about any members or groups outside the Sanctuary. Once again, if you want to put yourself in this category, it is you who is doing this not me. And you were called a troll because you 'are' a troll Menlu but we still like you because of our open-minded nature. And I was even trying to get along with you until you made it clear that you can't manage to be civil.



  • hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    DarthTerrious

    The reason the prequels aren't as popular and to people's tastes is because they have moved on and you got used to the original trilogy and all its quirks & nuisances. Nevermind the bad dialogue, some bad acting etc. You grew up loving it and convincing yourself that Star Wars was higher than it actually was. Now you have seen 2 prequels and are bought back down to earth to view what Star Wars really is. Bad dialogue, bad acting etc. And you don't like it. Thats too bad.

    The OT was far superior. I'm sorry I don't prefer films with full blown cartoon characters, poop and fart jokes, two-headed aliens, boring scenes and terrible dialogue. And the OT does have flaws but nothing like we have seen in the PT.

    Like you were with the original trilogy I don't see the bad dialogue and bad acting, I see Star Wars, I see fun encapsulated in a 2 hour movie. I don't care or all the problems you just have to moan about.
    The prequels are my Star Wars, as the originals were yours.


    I don't see all those flaws in the OT because they simply are not there.

    At least there is one very happy man out there, one that matters. George Lucas. He is creating the saga the way he has always done and he is doing exactly what he wants. Great for him, he has no stupid movie executives on his back and he can do the story as he wants to do it.

    Yeah, when they were around, he could never make a blockbuster. Wait, wasn't the original "Star Wars" nominated for an Academy award?! Damn those stupid movie executives! They ruined SW!




  • DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Yeah right the OT is far superior.
    The OT suffers from the same problems the PT has.
    You know what I thought of ANH when I saw it for the first time? I thought it was awful, terrible and I couldnt believe my dad had brought me to see it (this was the special edition in 97 i saw).
    I couldnt connect to the characters and I thought everything was boring.

    What a difference 2 years and TPM made. I fell in love with Star Wars right then and there. Now I watch ANH wih a new appreciation for Star Wars. Sure I probably cringed a few times because Luke was way too whiny and well it just wasn't that great as many of you think it is. But now I'm indifferent to those problems. In fact I realise how ignorant my first view of ANH was.

    But still the problems in ANH are the same with TPM and all the SW movies. But Idont let that cloud my judgement of what a great saga GL is producing.

    Live in your cuckoo land, I dont care.
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