Discussion Luke Skywalker's New (or Old) Jedi Order?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Dra---, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. newdawn12 Force Ghost

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    Feb 9, 2013
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    Last edited by newdawn12, Jan 4, 2014
  2. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
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    Last week @rezpen brought up the possibility (a rumor) that the Jedi Order will not be rebuilt by the time of 7. When I originally created this thread, such a thing never struck me as a possibility. Then again, if true, it does allow the ST to be about creating the Order.

    So assuming the rumor is true, let's discuss the most likely reasons the Order isn't rebuilt.

    Here are a few that come to mind:

    1) The Republic forbids it. People are scared of force users (Vader and Palp's legacy), or we have enemies that are working against the Jedi. Or both. I'm still not convinced Luke wouldn't train Jedi secretly.

    2) Luke decides not to rebuild. I don't really like this option. Doesn't make much sense to me.

    3) The Republic isn't rebuilt yet, so neither is the Order. I don't really understand this option. Why would Luke need the Republic to train Jedi?

    4) Only a few Jedi are trained and so the Order isn't an Order. I don't understand this option either. Maybe this is a fledgling or pathetic Order, but it's still technically a group of Jedi, which to me is an Order. The beginning of an Order is still an Order.

    5) What else?
  3. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

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    Aug 5, 2001
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    - There's been constant war with the Remnant & so no time to rebuild anything

    - He hasn't found any suitable candidates (Leia says thanks but no thanks)
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  4. Thrawn082 Jedi Master

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    Jan 11, 2014
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    It's been over THIRTY YEARS since ROTJ. If Luke hasn't had any success by now, then maybe he's not the right guy for the job.
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  5. Dra--- Chosen One

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    Dec 30, 2012
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    To me the most likely option is that the Republic forbids it. At least this option creates some tension between Luke and the Republic. It gives us a sort of X-Men situation where Luke is like Charles Xavier training students secretly. This is a strength and also a weakness.

    Personally, what would make this option interesting for me is if Leia is sort of in the middle on the issue. She would be ok with a Jedi Order, although she's aware of the potential dangers (Vader), but decides to vote against the Order (to Luke's frustration) because it helps bring peace.

    Maybe the Imperial Remnant agrees to a peace treaty if and only if the Republic refuses to rebuild the Jedi?
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  6. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Luke enjoys his golf retreats far too much to be troubled with rebuilding the Jedi. You're welcome. :p
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  7. Dra--- Chosen One

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    Dec 30, 2012
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    Once again, golf ruins the galaxy.
  8. Darth Archimage Jedi Grand Master

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    May 28, 2013
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    For some reason, I have always liked the idea of the ST starting with the the Jedi Order in it's infancy. I like the idea of having just a handful of Jedi (more than the OT, but much less than the PT).

    Here are some more reasons and possible examples of why the Order may not be started (or just starting).

    - Luke is missing, no one can find him.
    Maybe he left one morning in his X-Wing to never return or crash landed on some unknown Planet, found a wife, started a family and assumed all was well with the Republic since he left. Just gets caught up in life like we all do. (Not really responsible, but a possibility)

    - Luke has been captured / imprisoned.
    This could be combined with the above or it may could even be made public that he has been imprisoned because he is a Jedi and they are the ones responsible for the Empire in the first place (as some may see) -- or he's been connected to Darth Vader and imprisoned "just in case".

    - Luke is being blackmailed into not training.
    Someone finds out the connection between Luke and Leia and threatens to sabotage Leia's political career if Luke is found training Jedi. So Luke delays his training.

    - Luke can't find any Force Sensitives
    Maybe Since the destruction of the Emperor and Death of Vader Force sensitives (or the Force itself) is/are hard to find.
  9. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
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    If the Republic hasn't been rebuilt and the Empire is still effectively in control, then the Jedi Order wouldn't be able to exist as an institution. I would draw a distinction between that and Luke training a few students in hiding. If he's only in the process of rebuilding the Order then it wouldn't actually be rebuilt yet.
  10. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
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    Really? I'm pretty sure I mentioned this possibility in the thread.

    1) Depends on what kind of relationship LUke has with Leia and the new government. Training Jedi in secret isn't a good way to prove to people you're good and can be trusted.

    2) He might not be confident enough in his abilities to teach someone else. He might not feel he knows enough to teach someone having never finished his own training. The task of "rebuilding the Jedi Order" is HUGE and it might be too much for him. It would be/could be almost Dune like, Paul was able to over throw the Emperor and take control Dune, but he didn't have the strength and confidence to secure the future of humanity, it was up to his son Leto to do that.

    3) He could be too busy working to get the Empire gone and a government set up

    4) I think this makes the most sense. Luke is going to find o ut about the old Order from Obi-wan, Yoda, maybe records etc.... so why wouldn't he train people one at a time the way the PT Jedi did, and if he does there wouldn't be time for more then a handful of Jedi to be trained/in training. If it takes 10-15 years to go through Padawan training in the 30 years or between movies Luke would/could really only train 2 maybe 3 Jedi (maybe 2 and have a Padawan?), and those Jedi may not be ready to train someone else right away. So say Luke 1st Student is training his first Padawan. So you'd have Luke and Padawan #3. Student #1 and his Padawan and Student #2. 5 Jedi........
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Jan 21, 2014
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  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    He might train people the same way he was trained by Yoda- very fast- if he thinks the Rebellion really needs Jedi.

    Yoda told him "Pass on what you have learned" after all.

    And it seems pretty clear that he planned to train Leia if he survived RoTJ:

    "You have that power, too. In time, you will learn to use it as I have."
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  12. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    Luke missing - even more Dune influence.
  13. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
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    He might, but int he situation of "no Jedi Order" he hasn't.

    And Luke was trained fast (and didn't complete his training) out of need and poor planing by Obi-wan and Yoda. When it comes to Luke having to train the generation of Jedi the new order will be built on I don't think its out of the question that he'd take his time and really do it right. Any advice he gets from Obi-wan and Yoda will probably be to take his time, any records will indicate how long Padawans were Padawans etc....

    Pass on what you have learned doesn't = train as many people as quickly as you can.
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  14. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

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    Jun 15, 2011
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    I'd rather Leia not turn down the Jedi lessons. Would be nice if she became some Jedi Chancellor.
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    I think a Leia with force powers is more interesting than a Leia without, especially if the powers she has differ a bit from the standard repertoire. Maybe the force helps her influence and persuade people.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jan 21, 2014
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  16. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
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    Make the new government a Theocracy? I hope they stay away from that.

    Plus a Chancellor who mind trick people........
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  17. Dra--- Chosen One

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    Dec 30, 2012
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    I find it hard to believe the Republic would be happy about someone with Force powers in charge again.

    Lot of interesting points you're all bringing up. I like the idea of Luke being blackmailed into not rebuilding the Order. But I think the Republic forbidding it still makes the most sense. Although @sluggo1313 raises a key question that I'm not sure we've debated much on the board: how quickly will Luke try to train Jedi? We have a lot of people who assume a PT Jedi trained their whole life amounts to pretty much the same thing as a quickly trained Luke in the OT. I think that's pretty illogical, and the only way people can get around the problem is to say Luke (and Leia) are the children of the Chosen One. That may be true, but it just seems like such a artificial plot device to me. But anyway, let's go ahead and assume Luke and Leia are unique cases -- the new Jedi Luke will be training won't be unique cases. So how long does it take to train them properly?

    If it takes a long time, then this is one of the most organic reasons the Order hasn't been sufficiently rebuilt yet. Although I disagree with the idea that 4-5 Jedi isn't an Order. It's a small Order, and I also don't agree that a Jedi Order needs any sort of government endorsement to be a real Order.

    So maybe it's not that the Order isn't rebuilt at all by the time of the ST, but simply that's it's too small and vulnerable? That could create good tension. Especially if Luke dies or is incapacitated.
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  18. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

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    Nov 6, 2013
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    What if, for the sake of argument, someone manages to trap Luke in carbonite? I'll concede that it's unlikely since Vader couldn't do it when Luke's training wasn't 100% complete but what if someone presents him with the "You'll go into carbonite or I'll kill your sister and/or her children!" dilemma?

    As for other reasons, I don't buy into the premise that the war ends at the end of ROTJ and so Luke is going to be helping the Alliance finish off the Empire for a few years at least. After that he's going to have to split his time between looking for force sensitive potential-Jedi and training them.
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  19. Darth Archimage Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2013
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    I would think Leia is the the type that would want to be open to her following, but having the Force may be too much for them to handle. This certainly would bring her great conflict. This leads me to believe that if Leia intends to have a political career, no matter how much she is trained, she will most likely have to keep it a secret. Either way, the Force could ruin her career. This choice may be enough for her to drop politics and choose to live her life as a Jedi.


    But is Luke the type of person who would settle for this? In his eyes, I would think Yoda’s mandate “to pass on what he has learned” would trump any government law. Even if the Republic did forbid it, I’m sure he could find a way to train in secret on Dagobah, some unknown Planet or even outside the Galaxy borders -- Empire territory.

    Very interesting topics - I think the ST is going to be full of conflict.
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  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
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    Not so sure. The rebels were into the force religion, they used greetings like "may the force be with you" and happily accepted Jedi into their ranks, while the imperials were more atheist. Secondly I doubt the populace knew that Palpatine was a Sith. Luke didn't seem to know either, otherwise there wouldn't have been a need to warn him of the Emperor's power.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jan 21, 2014
  21. Lee_ Force Ghost

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    Nov 3, 2012
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    How would the people of the Republic even know Leia had Jedi power? She could be the secret good Jedi Chancellor, like Palp was the secret bad Sith Chancellor.
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  22. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
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    Very true. But I think things would change for the Rebel leadership once the Republic formed and politics in the Senate started up. You'd have lots of planets and individuals vying for power, and some of these people would try to exploit the issue of Force power for their own ends. The EU depicted this, and it's one the more believable aspects of EU, imo. A few things to consider: the Jedi have enemies prior to the Empire, like the Mandalorians and organizations like the Trade Federation. Also some Republic military people will probably not want to be put under the control of Jedi, now that they have a power base. But we also have Palpatine's speech declaring the Jedi traitors, which should have fooled at least a few people.

    Also, I don't see why Palpatine's identity as a Sith would remain secret forever. Eventually that information will leak and people will wonder if the Jedi are simply too dangerous.

    EDIT: @Lee_

    How do people know that Senators and Presidents have affairs or do illegal things? Rivals and enemies spy on them, people pay for dirt, including the media, or selfish individuals release the info for their own ends. Also: people who think they're doing the right thing leak information.
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 21, 2014
  23. TheBBP Chosen One

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    Nov 6, 2012
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    I would hope that we would get to witness the rebuilding of the order.
  24. Darth Archimage Jedi Grand Master

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    May 28, 2013
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    It's quite likely the majority of Senators who allowed Palpatine to create the Empire, (after he blamed the Jedi for plotting against them) would change their vote after 20 years of the Emperor's oppression. Though, it may never have been realized that the Jedi were innocent. History might just be reason enough for the voters to pick the non force wielding candidate. A Jedi would however, make a perfect spiritual/religious leader for the Republic.
    Last edited by Darth Archimage, Jan 22, 2014
  25. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    True, but I'm pretty sure Luke (who would be the only one that would need to know really) isn't going to do any "good intention" leaks. If her training was done intermittently over a long period of time, she could even hide it from her family, especially since she is a politician with a lot of potential excuses for that sort of thing, "I need to be gone for a while for a diplomatic mission." Palp seemed to do a pretty good job of hiding it, I don't see why Leia couldn't. Affairs and dirty politician moves necessarily require involvement of other, where being a Jedi really doesn't (aside from Luke); Jedi training doesn't involve doing kinky things with cigars with naïve young interns that shoot their mouth off.

    Rebel leaders have a way of being wildly popular with the populace (George Washington?) when their leadership brought freedom to the masses out of what was severe oppression. I'm thinking Leia would get elected.
    Last edited by Lee_, Jan 22, 2014