Mara Jade Critics Club

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by JediJSolo, Nov 5, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bardan_Jusik, Sinrebirth
  1. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    Yeah, what the heck is going on? We're discussing how to nitpick characters and then we're suddenly on the topic of showers.
  2. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I'm highly critical of these showers, and since Mara takes them, it's on topic! :p
  3. Coota Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, might as well work from the bottom up. Eventually someone will find something about Mara that someone can't come up with some crazy explanation for.

    I actually have a question for all the Mara Jade fans, since this is the Mara Jade criticism thread, not the Mara Jade defense thread: What faults do *you* think Mara has? Obviously, she has to have *some* faults, even in the eyes of her fans. Otherwise she'd be a pretty one-dimensional character.

    Tell us what you think are Mara's faults, in either how she's written or her actual character!

    And if anyone says "She has none," I'm taking that as an automatic vote for "She's an awful, one dimensional character." Not that I think anyone would say that, of course. No ones that obssessed.
  4. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I actually have a question for all the Mara Jade fans, since this is the Mara Jade criticism thread, not the Mara Jade defense thread: What faults do *you* think Mara has?

    I think that she's pretty dang arrogant. She does think that she has all of the answers. Yes, she's often right, but that isn't an excuse.

    I also think that she becomes angry too easily. That's a fault for anyone, especially a Force user.
  5. Jedi_Sha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2002
    star 5
    she gets mad waaay to easily.
    she is a bit arrogant.
    she is to independent and untrusting. i know it's her upbringing but she should be past this by now. *rolls eyes* stupid authors...
  6. Elori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2002
    star 4
    8-} I agree with Sha:

    she is to independent and untrusting. i know it's her upbringing but she should be past this by now. *rolls eyes* stupid authors...
  7. Devi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 4
    I'd pretty much say the same things - too easily angered, esp. for a Jedi; and too much stubborn independance.

    Especially considering that at the end of VOTF, Mara explicitly said that she wanted to learn to open herself more to other people on an emotional level. But the (NJO) authors that came in after that totally ignored that and gave Mara (almost) zero emotional growth. :(

    Also, she wasn't there for her Jaina when she would have needed her most (when one of her brothers was dead and the other one missing and she had fallen to the Dark Side). I think that was a great omission/fault on the part of the authors - to not show Mara as being there for Jaina in that situation. I don't understand why Elaine Cunningham had to bring in Kyp to do what would have been Mara's job (IMHO) - help Jaina to return from the Dark Side. (Can you tell I'm not too fond of the NJO? ;) )
  8. Jedi_Liz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    arrogant and some stubborness, and mostly what the others have said. And, its partially the fault of the NJO authors as to why her emotional growth is not there. She should have been there for Jaina when she was struggling with the dark side,too.
  9. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Mara is a taker, not a giver. That's why she seldom shows support for people who have supported her. Luke's become that way too since he married her.
  10. Falcon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 8
    hmmm after reading your arguments and now that I think about it I like Mara less and less.




    Edit: I'm in the middle, I like her in some ways but there are some things I don't like about her.
  11. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    We're only pointing out her faults, you know. She has good points also.

    I don't like the way authors try to make her a tough cool character, but end up turning her into someone who's hard as a nail. If you know what I mean. Or when they try to give her a sense of humor but it turns out as sarcasm and nothing else. :mad:

    Um, I don't think Luke has become a "taker" since he's married Mara. I've read the books; I know. He's always seemed pretty selfless.
  12. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Well, then why do you all argue with us for saying the same things? This proves we're right and think the same thoughts about the character.

    What I can't stand: No recipriocity.

    Everyone treats Mara with a respect and kindess I find so unearned. And she treats everyone but Luke like scum on her shoe, telling people off, and being an overall pain in the butt. Being all short tempered and nasty almost all the time, unless Luke is there in her presence, or she is the center of attention.

    She should have been there for Jaina, but it's so obvious she never gave a crap about her. Did she even say hi to the beleaguered child on Mon Calamari? No, too busy laying around the luxury hotel with you-know-who, doing you-know-what. What a great "Master" she is.
    At least Kyp sits there and gives the girl the time of day.
  13. Jedi_Sha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2002
    star 5
    yeah, but you have to admit that was the fault of the authors. they always screw up her character.
    and i know exactly what you mean dejade_vu... [face_annoyed]
    she was starting to grow throughout votf and she should have grown a lot in the following books but the authors haven't given her the opportunity. sometimes i feel like they're trying to make people hate her. :mad:
  14. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Again, you can't argue that the authors are the ones screwing Mara up, because her character exists only at the tip of the pen. I have to admit that she was an interesting character with a lot of potential (along with arrogance) in her in the Thrawn trilogy. I didn't like her character in the Dualogy, and I further disliked her in the NJO.

    Yes, finally I've gotten Destiny's Way. :D :D I think fate smiled upon me or something. Now, if only I can find time to read the book.

    Aunecah
  15. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Well, then why do you all argue with us for saying the same things? This proves we're right and think the same thoughts about the character.

    Because, while we admit she has some faults, we don't condemn her whole being.

    Again, you can't argue that the authors are the ones screwing Mara up, because her character exists only at the tip of the pen.

    Well, I've heard some people on the Mara-hating side say that they don't take the author's word for it that she's remorseful.


    Aunecah: I hope you find time to read it. It really is a good book.


    -ph33r the pooduck
  16. Coota Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, I thought Destiny's Way was a step back. I thought every other NJO book up to that one had been doing a great job, and then that one really seemed to go in all the wrong directions. The treatment of the 'superweapon', the treatment of the major bad guy(who went from an exceptionally interesting character to a mindless zealot who the author needed to get rid of quickly), the treatment of Jacen, who doesn't seem nearly as changed as he was in Traitor, the treatment of the mission to Imperial Space, which just seemed like a way to bring us into the action, without having any actual bearing on the story, everythng just left a bad taste in my mouth except for the excellent battle scenes. They were probably the best written battle scenes in a long while. Certainly better than the awful Dark Journey battle scenes.

    But this isn't NJO criticism(and I actually really love NJO as a whole: Destiny's Way has been my only problem book so far, though some others were slightly off-the mark, though not too badly).

    ----

    As for Mara, I think that a lot of the Mara fans *do* agree with Mara haters in a lot of ways, Tiershon, but they don't want to give Mara haters even an inch because if they did, then the Mara haters would be more than willing to take the entire foot, and say Mara's a bad character overall. The same is true in the other direction; most Mara haters are afraid that if they admit Mara has good points, the Mara fans will jump on that as an admission that they think she's a good character.

    I think there's more common ground than anyone wants to admit, as in the case of most fandoms. Nobody can really give any ground, though, for fear of showing signs of weakness.

    And it really does come down to the fact that the fans, no matter what Mara's faults, love her unconditionally and don't know exactly why(though they come up with plenty of reason to explain it) and the haters, no matter Mara's good points, hate her unconditionally and don't know exactly why(though they come up with plenty of reasons to explain *that*). It's just a 'feeling' that each side gets from the character: whereas you get the feeling that Mara is a taker and a generally bad person, the fans get the 'feeling' that there's a good person under that exterior.

    And both sides are willing to admit that she hasn't been written well lately(though most haters will assert that she's *never* been written well).
  17. Jedi_Sha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2002
    star 5
    i don't know what to make of you coota. :p

    except that that was an awesome post and i think that's absolutely true! so, good job expressing my feelings.

    i've never been good at analyzing junk like "why do you like the color green" i don't know! i just do! :p i feel the same way about mara. i don't know why i like her! i just do!
  18. Coota Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2002
    star 4
    Like I've said before, I have no opinions on Mara Jade one way or the other.

    The only thing I can really say about her is that, for me, she's utterly forgettable. I just personally don't get anything out of the scenes with her. I'll remember a Han Solo scene, or a Wedge scene, and even sometimes Jacen and Jaina scenes, but Mara just really doesn't do anything for me. The main reason I don't really argue specific points about her is that I can't *remember* anything about her. And I've read every Star Wars related EU thing from the very beginning. Nothing about her has ever been very compelling for me, personally, or caused me to really just grin and say "Darn, that's interesting." I mean, recently, even a completely uninteresting character inspired that reaction from me: Ganner Rhysode, in Traitor. Even Kyp at least gets a dull hatred out of me ;)

    Of course, she *does* inspire other people, and does compell other people. Just not me.

    Why am I even in this thread? Because something just really bugged me, but it's become a moot point, because I've just accepted that there's no way to change it. It'll keep on bugging me, but, short of a superlaser, it's not going to change.
  19. DeJade_Vu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 4

    Again, you can't argue that the authors are the ones screwing Mara up, because her character exists only at the tip of the pen.


    The authors are the ones holding the pen...why they aren't at least partially responsible (I'm being diplomatic) for screwing up a character whose every move comes from their minds, I don't know.

    Everyone treats Mara with a respect and kindess I find so unearned. And she treats everyone but Luke like scum on her shoe...She should have been there for Jaina, but it's so obvious she never gave a crap about her.

    You keep saying how everyone in the books "worships" Mara but you never give specific instances, minus the Jaina one above. Could you give some actual, real, whole quotes to prove what you are saying? Because as far as I know, none of the characters in NJO seem to have been treating any one character in a worshipful manner...they all seem to treat each other normally as far as I've seen.

    Well, then why do you all argue with us for saying the same things? This proves we're right and think the same thoughts about the character.

    The thing is, haters condemn everything about the character, not just the faults.
  20. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Well, I've heard some people on the Mara-hating side say that they don't take the author's word for it that she's remorseful.

    Because we see no evidence of it. We've seen one reference to her feeling regret, followed by a reference to her crashing her ship, which enabled her to "make peace." But mostly we've seen her skip along merrily, totally unaffected by the atrocities she committed, feeling free to judge and condemn other people for lesser wrongs.

    By the way, this is a Critics' Club. So it is perfectly reasonable to bring up her faults without having to balance them out with her good points, although IMO she has so few good points that they're scarcely worth mentioning.

    Besides which, there's no balance in the books. Mara is never, ever criticized in any of the books. So why should there be balance here, in a Critics' Club?
  21. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    The authors are the ones holding the pen...why they aren't at least partially responsible (I'm being diplomatic) for screwing up a character whose every move comes from their minds, I don't know.

    IMO, Mara was screwed up to begin with, but at least when she was first introduced she had potential to be interesting.

    You keep saying how everyone in the books "worships" Mara

    Read what Tiershon_Fett said. She didn't say "worships." She said:

    Everyone treats Mara with a respect and kindess I find so unearned. And she treats everyone but Luke like scum on her shoe...She should have been there for Jaina, but it's so obvious she never gave a crap about her.


    but you never give specific instances, minus the Jaina one above. Could you give some actual, real, whole quotes to prove what you are saying?

    T_F and many Mara haters have given quotes, repeatedly, only to have them ignored or to be told that we're "misinterpreting" it when Leia tells Mara she's braver, or when Anakin wishes his dad was "strong like Aunt Mara."

    No one is treated with as much respect, awe, and adoration as Mara, even though of all the "good guy" characters she's probably the least deserving of it.

    Because as far as I know, none of the characters in NJO seem to have been treating any one character in a worshipful manner...they all seem to treat each other normally as far as I've seen.

    You mean aside from the derision Leia regularly received throughout most of the NJO? You mean aside from practically everyone going on about how brave, strong, and beautiful Mara is?

    The thing is, haters condemn everything about the character, not just the faults.

    And fans love everything about Mara, not just her good points. When a hater points out one of her faults, a fan steps in and says that we're misunderstanding her, or else blames it on another character -- or the author who happened to be writing Mara during that particular instance.

    Considering that most of the NJO authors are huge Mara fans, and more than one has said that none of the EU authors dare harm a hair on her head for fear of her fans, I wonder why it is that they've all "gotten her so wrong."
  22. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Um, I don't think Luke has become a "taker" since he's married Mara. I've read the books; I know. He's always seemed pretty selfless.

    Yep. He basically handed over his entire "self" to Mara once he married her. Now he is truly "self"-less; his mind is melded to Mara's, as we're reminded ad nauseum, and it's her "self" that dominates them both.

    Luke doesn't defend his sister when Mara criticizes or cruelly teases her, and sometimes joins in; meanwhile, Leia defends him to Kyp. Luke shrugs it off when his sister is near death; he freaks out when Mara is. Luke offers no condolences to his sister or brother-in-law when their son dies; he envelopes Mara in his love when their son is briefly kidnapped.
  23. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    But mostly we've seen her skip along merrily, totally unaffected by the atrocities she committed

    What atrocities? She was a soldier in a war. She wasn't a mass-murderer, she didn't use WMD, she didn't kill innocents.

    Mara is never, ever criticized in any of the books. So why should there be balance here, in a Critics' Club?

    But some of her most loyal fans have come in here and said she has faults. Obviously the books are saying something.

    By the way, this is a Critics' Club. So it is perfectly reasonable to bring up her faults without having to balance them out with her good points, although IMO she has so few good points that they're scarcely worth mentioning.

    But, as you said, this is a Critics club, not a haters club. When you critique something or someone, you acknowledge the good and the bad.

    You mean aside from practically everyone going on about how brave, strong, and beautiful Mara is?

    Yeah, because Wedge, Wes, Tycho, Iella, all the Rogues, Wraiths, and every other single inhabitant of the GFFA who have never seen her, let alone met her, all bow down to her image.

    And fans love everything about Mara, not just her good points. When a hater points out one of her faults, a fan steps in and says that we're misunderstanding her, or else blames it on another character -- or the author who happened to be writing Mara during that particular instance.

    And when a fan points out one of her good points, a hater is there to bring up a non-issue or bad quotes and say everyone is worshiping her.

    Yep. He basically handed over his entire "self" to Mara once he married her. Now he is truly "self"-less; his mind is melded to Mara's, as we're reminded ad nauseum, and it's her "self" that dominates them both.

    Nice word play. The only ones I've seen stripping Luke of his soul is you and some of the other haters.
  24. Devi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 4
    JFT: Yeah, because Wedge, Wes, Tycho, Iella, all the Rogues, Wraiths, and every other single inhabitant of the GFFA who have never seen her, let alone met her, all bow down to her image.

    Actually, Wedge, Tycho and Iella have met Mara, as have some other Rogues and Wraiths. (We saw Iella hanging out with her in Union; Corran made friends with her (sort of) in I, Jedi; and Face, Elassar, Kell & Bhindi went on that mission w/ Luke & Mara in RS). But they do not bow down to her image, exactly.
  25. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    What atrocities? She was a soldier in a war. She wasn't a mass-murderer, she didn't use WMD, she didn't kill innocents.

    Yes she did. She was not a soldier in a war. She was an assassin for a dictator. She did kill innocents, and she felt no regret.

    But some of her most loyal fans have come in here and said she has faults. Obviously the books are saying something.

    Like what? When is Mara criticized in the books?

    But, as you said, this is a Critics club, not a haters club. When you critique something or someone, you acknowledge the good and the bad.

    Not always.

    Yeah, because Wedge, Wes, Tycho, Iella, all the Rogues, Wraiths, and every other single inhabitant of the GFFA who have never seen her, let alone met her, all bow down to her image.

    I said "practically" everyone. ;)

    And when a fan points out one of her good points, a hater is there to bring up a non-issue or bad quotes and say everyone is worshiping her.

    There you go, dismissing evidence haters bring up.

    Nice word play. The only ones I've seen stripping Luke of his soul is you and some of the other haters.

    Even if we wanted to, the EU authors already have. The moment he married Mara, he began to lose his soul.

    But they do not bow down to her image, exactly.

    Give them time. The Solo kids didn't start to bow down to her image until the NJO.
Moderators: Bardan_Jusik, Sinrebirth
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.