PT "Mourn them do not; Miss them do not."-Good advice or bad advice?

Kay so I guess I will have to say: Yes, I know Anakin is a man-a Jedi. But what I was doing there, was drawing a comparison/analogy in an effort to clarify the basic meaning of my point. That's what that was. Whether I'm talking about a child or an older man, the idea is the same.

So, what I mean is that being a man and a Jedi-especially a Jedi as emotionally obsessive and ambitious as Anakin-doesn't necessarily mean he can just flip a switch and simply make himself no longer care about what happens to Padme (the one in question in that conversation, though Yoda may not have known) and simply not worry about losing her to childbirth, just cos Yoda said "don't feel that way." It's much easer to be told not to DO something, than to be told not to FEEL something. IMO that's an unrealistic thing to ask of someone. Seems simple enough to me.


BTW Sorry about the sloppy quote. Thanks for bearing with all the blank layers!

 

Yoda isn't suggesting he flip a switch.

"Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose". That's him being told to do something. Train himself. It takes time and effort. Years. Decades, even. This is the life Anakin chose.

He also tells Anakin to be careful when sensing the future, which means not doing the crazy things Anakin did.

"Wait for us in the council chambers until we return". Another thing he was told to DO, or NOT DO (don't get involved with Palpatine's arrest), that he didn't listen to.

Anakin was so fearful that it didn't matter what the Jedi told him to feel or do or not do.

 

I get the "training yourself" factor. And as I said in my original post, it was wise of Yoda to tell him this in the context of the Jedi's teachings. The argument was never whether Yoda was right in telling him that. All I'm saying is that it's not all that easy for someone to make themselves not even feel a certain way. Yes I agree-it would take years of training-even for a Jedi-to get to the point where they don't even have that inkling of a feeling, it's essentially asking someone to change their nature. Imagine if you had a spouse, parent or child that was on their deathbed and someone came and told you that once they're gone your shouldn't miss or even mourn them. I think most people would have a ridiculously hard time doing that. Even with years and years of "training." And I know Anakin is a Jedi, but he's still just as obsessive and emotional as any one of us-which is IMO one of the reasons his turn to the darkside was believable IMO; the fact that we could relate to him from an emotional standpoint in what he's going thru during ROTS.

 

I'm getting tired of repeating this. Yes, he did say these things for a reason, but besides what is being said we also have to consider the context in which it is said. You do understand the meaning of "context"? Fiction or not, the characters are still human, and we expect them to have human emotions and flaws. Do YOU get it?? Obviously not, I'm wasting my time here.

I reserve the right to agree or disagree with any part of a movie or story I choose. Also I am taking the liberty to interpret certain aspects in a story my own way. I can still enjoy the story, just happen to not approve of certain elements, like some of the Jedi's methods and views. This is my right as a viewer, live with it.

 

But problems;

1) Anakin has been in Jedi training for over ten years now. This seems a pretty vital part of Jedi teaching, has he never heard of this before? Very unlikely.
So then he does know about this and has tried to train himself to do this but he has clearly failed.
So to someone that has failed to learn something for ten years, giving just the same lesson again is not likely to work.

2) If this takes years or even decades, if this person that Anakin fears to loose dies BEFORE Anakin has been able to train himself not to feel stuff, then what happens?
Well Anakin, not having time enough to not feel things, he will then feel those pesky emotions and bad things could then happen.
Consider Shmi, how much time passed between Anakin start having bad dreams and her death?
Weeks/months?
So here, it is quite likely that this death could happen sooner rather than later and Anakin's training will not be complete.

This is why I say this was not good advice, nor was it wise.
Because it did not take into account the circumstances and was instead Jedi dogma.

And the problem I tend to have with dogma is one, it "all-or-nothing" approach. You have to follow it to the letter, no variation, special cases or flexibility.
The second is it's rigid or inviolate nature, that it can not be discussed, questioned or challenged.

That Anakin was not learning vital pieces of Jedi teachings, either the Jedi were not aware of this, which either makes them clueless and does not fit with he films as they can see some of his behavior.
So then they know but don't care or make some extra effort to help him?
That is no better.

Obi-Wan does voice some concerns but is largely ignored.

Lastly, I don't subscribe to the idea that Anakin is doomed from birth, I do think that outside events did play a part and his choices might have been different.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The Sith wouldn't consider the idea of manipulating the Force that way to be unnatural, while the Jedi and the Dagoyan would soundly disagree. It was Palpatine's way of manipulating Anakin into joining the Sith. The Jedi and the Dagoyan knew better, which is why Qui-gon refutes the story of Darth Plagueis. As to the devil aspect, Lucas didn't write the story for you specifically. He wrote the story using all the myths and religions as a base.

BILL MOYERS: Joseph Campbell once said all the great myths, the ancient great stories, have to be regenerated in every generation. He said that's what you are doing with Star Wars. You are taking these old stories and putting them into the most modern of idioms, the cinema. Are you conscious of doing that? Or are you just setting out to make a good action-movie adventure?

GEORGE LUCAS: With Star Wars I consciously set about to re-create myths and the classic mythological motifs. I wanted to use those motifs to deal with issues that exist today. The more research I did, the more I realized that the issues are the same ones that existed 3,000 years ago. That we haven't come very far emotionally.

MOYERS: The mesmerizing figure in The Phantom Menace to me is Darth Maul. When I saw him, I thought of Lucifer in Paradise Lost or the devil in Dante's Inferno. He's the Evil Other--but with powerful human traits.

LUCAS: Yes, I was trying to find somebody who could compete with Darth Vader, who is now one of the most famous evil characters. So we went back into representations of evil. Not only the Christian, but also Hindu and other religious icons, as well as the monsters in Greek mythology.

MOYERS: What did you find in all these representations?

LUCAS: A lot of evil characters have horns. [Laughs.]

MOYERS: And does your use of red suggest the flames of hell?

LUCAS: Yes. It's a motif that I've been using with the Emperor and the Emperor's minions. I mean, red is an aggressive color. Evil is aggressive.

MOYERS: Is Darth Maul just a composite of what you found in your research, or are we seeing something from your own imagination and experience?

LUCAS: If you're trying to build an icon of evil, you have to go down into the subconscious of the human race over a period of time and pull out the images that equate to the emotion you are trying to project.


MOYERS: What do you make of the fact that so many people have interpreted your work as being profoundly religious?

LUCAS: I don't see Star Wars as profoundly religious. I see Star Wars as taking all the issues that religion represents and trying to distill them down into a more modern and easily accessible construct--that there is a greater mystery out there. I remember when I was 10 years old, I asked my mother, "If there's only one God, why are there so many religions?" I've been pondering that question ever since, and the conclusion I've come to is that all the religions are true.

MOYERS: Is one religion as good as another?

LUCAS: I would say so. Religion is basically a container for faith. And faith in our culture, our world and on a larger issue, the mystical level--which is God, what one might describe as a supernatural, or the things that we can't explain--is a very important part of what allows us to remain stable, remain balanced.

MOYERS: One explanation for the popularity of Star Wars when it appeared is that by the end of the 1970s, the hunger for spiritual experience was no longer being satisfied sufficiently by the traditional vessels of faith.

LUCAS: I put the Force into the movie in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people--more a belief in God than a belief in any particular religious system. I wanted to make it so that young people would begin to ask questions about the mystery. Not having enough interest in the mysteries of life to ask the question, "Is there a God or is there not a God?"--that is for me the worst thing that can happen. I think you should have an opinion about that. Or you should be saying, "I'm looking. I'm very curious about this, and I am going to continue to look until I can find an answer, and if I can't find an answer, then I'll die trying." I think it's important to have a belief system and to have faith.


MOYERS: When Darth Vader tempts Luke to come over to the Empire side, offering him all that the Empire has to offer, I am taken back to the story of Satan taking Christ to the mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world, if only he will turn away from his mission. Was that conscious in your mind?

LUCAS: Yes. That story also has been retold. Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. The gods are constantly tempting. Everybody and everything. So the idea of temptation is one of the things we struggle against, and the temptation obviously is the temptation to go to the dark side.

--Of Myth And Men, Time Magazine interview, 1999.

Being a Jedi is a difficult life as Qui-gon told Anakin. It isn't meant to be easy. That is why it takes time, patience and training to be the best Jedi that one can be. Anakin's problem is that he's been twisted by Sidious for thirteen years, the same way Snoke spent even longer on Ben. The things that Yoda says isn't meant for every person, but what it is meant to convey is that people need not take a self-destructive path to deal with grief. Anakin chooses the quick and easy path to deal with his problem, which is self-destructive. It is no more different from the person who turns to drugs and alcohol, or to violence in order to deal with their own grief. And in Anakin's case, he is filled with a great power that can be easily used to do terrible things. Because of his attachment, because of his growing greed and selfish desires, he chooses to betray everyone that he cares for, in order to hold onto Padme.

If you were told that you could save your loved ones, but must kill someone else to get it, would you do it. A life for a life. That is what Sidious offered Anakin.

Yes, having emotions is one thing. Carrying out those emotions as Anakin does, is another. Anakin was not talking off the cuff in the garage and at Shmi's grave. He was making a vow, right then and there to not fail again. This is a movie. This is a fictional story with fictional characters.



Lucas was foreshadowing ROTS.

This assumes that Anakin even bothers to try, which is evident in the fact that he lashes out as many times as he does until he turns. The teacher can teach, but the student has to be willing to learn.

In the case of Shmi, it was one month and came at a dangerous time for him, when he would be tempted by the dark side of the Force. His problem is that he did not have Obi-wan at his side to keep him on the straight and narrow. Had he been there, or had he not act emotionally, he would not have gone down the path that he did.

Considering how many successes there have been and how even his own son starts to get it, says that it isn't the teachings, but the student who fails to understand. He only does at the end because he sees himself in Luke and sees where he went wrong.

Anakin did learn these lessons, but he chooses to ignore them in favor of teachings from someone else who told him what he wanted to hear and not what he needed to know.

 

I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but I wonder; did they Jedi at least express some sympathy to Ani for the loss of his mother? Her death was an awful one, and I don't see how a quick "Mourn her not, miss her not," would've been appropriate. I like to think at least Kenobi would've said, "I'm sorry for your loss, Anakin." At some point, simple compassion should overrule non-attachment.

And I don't buy that they wouldn't find out Shmi was dead. Ani would have to account for his trip to Tatooine, and it makes no sense the Jedi wouldn't check on this. They might not know about the Tuskens, but I figure they'd know the rest.

 

I'm sure they would have, especially kenobi. I've said this before: Jedi aren't Vulcans. The Jedi in Luke's order(Old canon) married, had kids, grieved over loss, etc, but still had the same practices/teachings on attachments as Yoda's order.

 

Actually, Vulcans are shown to have compassion in such situations. Spock offers his condolences to Kirk when Matt Decker dies in "The Doomsday Machine", and when Kirk is seemingly killed in "Amok Time", T'Pau says a sincere, "I grieve with thee." But would the PT Jedi do that?

 

Well...other Vulcans then, like non main character ones that train to suppress all emotion.

 

Yes, some simple human compassion and sympathy might have gone a long way to prevent Anakin from distancing himself more and more from the Jedi. All they achieve with their aloofness and detachment is alienate their "chosen one". The only one who shows some understanding at all is Kenobi, but even he pretty much ignores what Anakin tells him. When your student keeps having nightmares you should feel something is seriously wrong as a master. But the best he could do is "dreams pass in time", a totally meaningless phrase. And then Anakin takes it a step further by saying he would rather dream about Padmé. He is openly telling his master about his feelings and again is completely ignored. This is as close as a Jedi would get to admitting he is in love and asking for some advice about it. An institution that is so strictly against attachment should have noticed immediately that attachment is already there, have the master sit down with his Padawan and have a long talk, maybe teach him a few friendly lessons about how best to deal with emotions. But what do they do, they arrange for Anakin to spend even more time with the person he obviously has feelings for. What did they expect? Had the Jedi not been so hopelessly out of touch with human nature, they would have known those emotions for what they were. But the Jedi order in the PT comes across as detached, preachy, all about dogma and rules. And this is coming from someone who likes the prequels.

As part of human nature, yes, as a separate independent outside force, no.

 

Well, they probably do know that Shmi died and that the loss was deeply painful for Anakin ("Young Skywalker is in pain, terrible pain"). However, it's also made pretty clear (in TCW) that it's a touchy subject that he hasn't been willing to discuss with anyone except Padmé and Palpatine.
He is, understandably, afraid of trusting a Jedi with that information.

Perhaps people like Obi-Wan and Yoda can sense that something went horribly wrong on Tatooine, but they may also have decided to simply let the matter rest until Anakin felt ready to talk about it.
...but they may still have offered their condolences and reminded him that as his Masters, they were there to listen and help him deal with these things should he choose to open up.

They might be ill-equipped to do so in this particular instance, though.

 

An organization always reflects their leader, so maybe Yoda, being so old is what cause the Jedi to become so detatched. It probably happened over a long period of time. Yoda admits as much at the end of the RotS novelization. Maybe Yoda should have held a different position in the order like "grand vizier" or something.

 

I cannot recall if it was addressed in TCW. But I do believe that it was expressed. At least by Obi-wan.

Yeah, they knew. Just not everything.

Spock was at war with his dual heritage the same way that Anakin was at war with his dual upbringings. Spock was capable of grief, he just didn't surrender to it. He reacted the same way to Sarek's death that Leia reacts after Alderaan is destroyed. He only reacts violently with Amanda's death in the alternate timeline, because he was younger and goaded by Kirk on purpose. The Vulcan race understood the dangers in their emotions, which was why many adopted the teachings of Surok, while the rest went on to become the Romulans.

He distances himself because he's hiding the truth from them about what happened with the Tuskens and his marriage to Padme. It has nothing to do with a possible lack of compassion.

 

The Jedi didn't show compassion or any interest in Anakins situation long before Shmi's death. As I said an attentive and mindful master should be more sensitive to his student's words. Not only is Anakin Obi-Wan's ONLY student, he is also the Jedi Order's "chosen one". And no one cares how he feels?
Also the marriage didn't happen until the end of the movie. Kenobi's alarm bells should have gone off right when Anakin talks about dreaming of Padmé. But he totally ignores all that.

 

To be fair to the Jedi:

• They didn’t know the exact circumstances behind Anakin’s ‘terrible pain’. In the novelization, it’s revealed he told them his mom died and that was it. To them, they probably concluded that this was the source of Anakin’s pain, but now that it is passed, he can have an easier time moving on. How could they know that Anakin wen there, found his mother tortured to death, snapped, and slaughtered an entire village?

• Anakin didn’t tell Yoda the full story during their meeting. All he tells him is that he’s having visions of someone he knows dying in pain. For all Yoda knows, Anakin is speaking of Obi-Wan and responded accordingly. True, his advice could’ve been better worded so it didn’t come off as cold-hearted, but again, how is he to know without Anakin telling him? To Yoda’s credit, he did tell Anakin to train himself, in that he isn’t expecting Anakin to just blink and be all, “Hey, I’m OK with people I care about dying!”

 

In what way were the Jedi not compassionate towards Anakin? Obi-wan shows compassion when he notices his exhaustion and engages him about it. As to caring about how he feels, show me where that is the case? Yoda wouldn't have talked to him at all, much less had given him a Padawan before then. And Mace wouldn't have noted that he can sense confusion in Anakin, if he didn't care.

He is aware of the danger in those feelings which is why he tells Anakin to be mindful of them. And it is why he confronts him about them later on, when Rush Clovis had re-entered the picture.

OBI-WAN: "Anakin, I understand to a degree what is going on. You've met Satine. You know I once harbored feelings for her. It's not that we're not allowed to have these feelings. It's natural."

ANAKIN: "Senator Amidala and I are simply friends."

OBI-WAN: "And friends you must remain. As a Jedi, it is essential you make the right choice, Anakin, for the Order."

ANAKIN: "I understand my responsibilities."

OBI-WAN: "Responsibilities that must be observed whatever relationship develops between Clovis and Senator Amidala."

 

But consider what the Jedi know.
Anakin had nightmares about his mother to the point where he had trouble sleeping.
They know he went to Tatooine and that he was in great pain. And if we assume that he told them that she died. So he could sense a death coming and it was a violent and unnatural death and afterwards he was in great pain.

So the Jedi would have reason to think that the same thing will happen here, Anakin is seeing a death coming, it is likely violent and unnatural.
And since his visions came true the last time, there is no reason to assume it won't now. Unless someone acts. Shmi might have been saved if Anakin had acted sooner.
Esp Anakin would have no reason to assume that it would not happen unless he acted.
And if nothing changes, Anakin will feel as bad or worse than before.

So how much help is there to tell Anakin to train?
The time involved is likely short, weeks at most. Will that be enough for him to train himself not to care if people die?
Plus, Anakin has been a Jedi for over ten years and he has not managed to learn this in ten years of trying, why would he suddenly be able to now?

So the likely outcome, as far as the jedi go, is that this person will die, Anakin will again be in great pain and feel terrible. And would very likely be angry at the Jedi. He did nothing to help his mother until it was too late, she died and felt terrible. He again does nothing, a person dies and he again feels terrible.

No the advice was bad and came across as cold and uncaring.
Yoda did not take into account all the details and outside factors and simply repeated Jedi dogma.
If Yoda feels he has not gotten enough facts, tell Anakin "I need to know more if I am to help you."
Giving advice based on partial info can be worse than giving no advice at all.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

We don't know that the Jedi Council was ever told that Anakin was having nightmares about Shmi. Only Obi-wan knows and based on what we know, he didn't consider it to be a serious enough affair at all. Much less enough to discuss with the Council. And when this comes around, Obi-wan has no idea that this is going on and Padme never bothers to bring up to Obi-wan before he leaves for Utapau, because she's forgotten about it until Anakin brings it up again. And Yoda never discusses it with the rest of the Council before leaving for Kashyyyk.

The thing is that Anakin is acting emotionally, so he has no idea when or even if it will happen. He's panicking and that his not helpful in a stressful situation. As to a time frame, again, that doesn't matter. He needs to begin now, in order to avoid the situation that will come later. In training himself, he needs to understand and accept that people will come and go in his life. And more importantly, he cannot save everyone. He must accept that life involves sacrifice, which he is not ready to do because he has not made an effort to accept failure and loss. When he is calm and at peace, will he know what to do. The reason he hasn't been able to get it after all this time is because he's been told for a dozen years that his power will make him invincible and that he can do anything he sets his mind to.

That's a mighty big if.

 

There is a good line in the novelization after Yoda tells Anakin not to miss or mourn those who transform into the Force when he thinks to himself, "Well Anakin knew one thing, Yoda had never been in love."

Though of course this does not make Anakin's decisions correct.

 

It's also a very flawed assumption on Anakin's part.

 

Yoda may have had like 57 kids before ever even joining the Jedi order. He may have had a wife and 12 concubines that he loved dearly

 

Which was indeed the point in including that bit of thinking on Stover's part.

 

It's good advice but it comes off very 'cold' in the context that Yoda was talking. When you talk to someone about a loved-one's death, the last thing that person wants to hear is a rehearsed speech. People need to feel that you are empathizing with them, and that is the exact opposite that Yoda comes off in this scene. Anakin walked out of this scene and probably figured, "These people don't understand what I'm going through." Hence why he is so apt to listen to another person who is seems to actually empathize with him, Chancellor Palpatine.

 

The concept in itself is certainly flawed IMO. Maybe there could be SOME truth to it, but Yoda failed to explain properly, like a wise master should. Padmé was a lot wiser and emphatic in that way. You can't simply order a person to not mourn, love or grieve, even a Jedi. Besides he wasn't even human so he probably didn't understand human emotions that well. Humans can't be ordered how they should feel, period. I would have expected such a respected and renowned ancient and wise order, more so one consisting of so many species, to have more wisdom, insight and knowledge, period. But in the PT they often come across as completely unfeeling robots, sorry. I think even R2 had more emotion.