[NRW] What *sort* of ship is a Super Star Destroyer?!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Thrawn McEwok, Jul 27, 2005.

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  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Pppfft

    Just because we see them doesn't mean there aren't more.
  2. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    And er.. did you also notice that the turbolaser guns along that side of the Venator also seem much smaller than those turrets? No, there haven't been any other turrets or barrels of similar size other than the 8, except the two double turbolaser on the sides of the Venator. The ISD follows the similar design philosophy, designed by the same person and no one. In fact, the ISD has 2 types of turbolasers, not the "one" suggested by WEG statistics. Not to mention, probably 2 types of ion cannons.

    Incidentally, we did see some very small turbolasers on the Death Star and I believe they provide an interesting comparison to the guns mounted on the those towers. Notice how large the turret was just to support those 2 barrels with all the necessary equipment.
  3. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Can we please not get bogged down in numbers here? Though everyone seems to want this thread to degenerate into squabbling...

    Charlemagne: Do you really thing twenty-five thousand ISDs are enough? Need I remind you how big space is? Sector Groups are just patrol ships, they don't have the power to put down dedicated insurrections. That's why ISDs are so multipurpose, they're capable of dealing with a wide range of small threats.

    But when corporations and individual systems can purpose spacecraft that are several times the size of an ISD and when a common planetary turret can slice right through the shields and armor of an ISD like butter, stronger ships are needed. The SSD is but one example of this.

    EH & Kutzu: Executor has been categorically stated to be 19.0km long. Lusankya was her sister ship. All other SSDs of this type were referred to as Executor-class ships or compared to Executor invariably. They are all of the same class. There is no seperate Super-class.
  4. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    How can you commission two ships of the same class under the name Executor?
  5. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    How can you arrange for a HUGE starship to be under construction for years with all parties in power thinking it had been cancelled and unaware that it's still being built?

    How do you bury a Super Star Destroyer under the ground?

    How do you build a planet-sized weapon without anyone knowing?

    Answer: Welcome to the Galactic Empire.

    And if you want to dispute that it ever happened, I'll direct you to Wedge's Gamble. Canon defeats your doubts, simply by being canon. It happened, you cannot dispute that, since it was flatly stated to have happened.
  6. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    However, it simply doesn't make military sense. It's a ridiculous amount of confusion to be dealing with and it certainly isn't proper.

    Certainly isn't orderly, and wasn't that the point of the Empire? Order? I'd certainly hate to be the Moff in charge of dealing with Executors in his sector.
  7. The_Red_Blade Jedi Knight

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    Using resources that could've probably doubled the size of your fleet to create an artificial planet used to house a giant gun that can blow up other planets doesn't make sense either. Neither does waiting in the Deep Core with a massive fleet while the New Republic is brought to its knees by one of your favorite military geniuses. The Emperor did alot of silly things.

    On the subject of Executor being a command ship, perhaps this just means that that's where Vader chose to post his flag? I imagine that the ship might have more communication gear for coordinating the fleet (perhaps taking up the space that could have been occupied by weapons if it were to try to keep in scale with the ISDs). While a commander, especially one like Vader, would tend hang his hat from the nastiest, most intimidating ship he could find, its possible that a commader who favored mobility could make his command ship a VSD.

    Also, was the Executor the command ship just for the Death's Head Squadron, or was it for the whole fleet? The answer could tell us much as to her layout and armarment
  8. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    [face_laugh]

    Proper? Do you know anything about the Galactic Empire?

    The Emperor wants a secret escape ship, so he uses duplicate names so no one will suspect this ship exists. Period.

    Order? The Emperor doesn't care about order. He cares about power, order's just a word to him. The succession certainly wasn't orderly. The chain of command certainly isn't orderly. Cross-linked powers and authorities ensure that nothing in the Imperial bureaucracy makes sense, and the only thing about the Empire that one knows for certain is that the Emperor's on top.

    Doesn't make sense? It doesn't matter, you're not to question the Emperor and if you can't grasp the Emperor's motives, it doesn't matter. Canon is canon is canon, unless contradicted or retconned.
  9. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    Would have been a royal headache if Isard hadn't changed the name. I pity the naval commanders.

    I believe the Executor, as the flagship of the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Armed Forces, second only to His Majesty the Emperor, would be considered to be the flagship of the entire Imperial navy, although it would stand to reason that the best and brightest Star Destroyer crews and their warships were picked to comprise his elite Death Squadron.

    Those best and brightest no doubt including some of Palpatine's favorites.
  10. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Vader wouldn't allow it. He's a stern meritocrat, and we've seen what he does to inefficient crewmen.

    But yes, HIMS Executor was the premier ship in the Imperial Starfleet. Quite a prestigious vessel, but as are most SSDs.

    They must be uniquely suited as commandships, because we see them in those sorts of roles. While it's possible to fly a flag from a smaller ship, such as Grand Admiral Thrawn did with the Neb-B HIMS Maru Ki, that wouldn't make the vessel a commandship unless it were properly equipped for such duties.
  11. President_Sharky Jedi Master

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    What are on? This isn't Star Trek Kudzu, there is no flagship for the entire Imperial Navy. Do you know what a flagship is? It's a ship with a flag officer onboard, like an admiral of a moff. The Imperial fleet is divided into sector and regional commands headed by different flag officers. The Empire was created to have overlapping jurisdiction, so Oversector Commands, such as Azure Hammer Command, are stationed in specific sectors, but have no authority over Sector Commands, which are commanded by Moffs.
  12. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    Vader wouldn't have to know. [face_mischief]

    What are on? This isn't Star Trek Kudzu, there is no flagship for the entire Imperial Navy. Do you know what a flagship is? It's a ship with a flag officer onboard, like an admiral of a moff. The Imperial fleet is divided into sector and regional commands headed by different flag officers. The Empire was created to have overlapping jurisdiction, so Oversector Commands, such as Azure Hammer Command, are stationed in specific sectors, but have no authority over Sector Commands, which are commanded by Moffs.


    Vader = Supreme Commander of the Imperial Armed Forces = top-ranking military = flag officer.

    Overlapping jurisdiction? Vader's a kriffin' Sith Lord. He can do whatever he wants, and only the Emperor can really boss him around. Technically he is subordinate to the Grand Moffs; in actuality, he would have been able to execute Tarkin if he thought that it would be in his master's best interests and wouldn't have had to explain himself to anyone but the Emperor.
  13. President_Sharky Jedi Master

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    That still doesn't make whatever ship he's on the "flagship of the Imperial Navy". Any ship he's on will be a flagship, yes, but only pertaining to any fleet that ship belongs to. HIMS Executor is the regular flagship of Death Squadron, but while it's out hunting rebels in the Outer Rim, it has no authority over AZUREHAMMERCOM, whose flagship is the HIMS Whelm, under the command of Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik.
  14. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm pretty sure that Vader had little trouble bossing Thrawn around. I'm sure he could override Teshik for whatever reason that he wanted to.

    The Empire wasn't created for overlapping authority. It was created for the purpose of allowing the Sith to rule the galaxy.
  15. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    What are on? This isn't Star Trek Kudzu, there is no flagship for the entire Imperial Navy. Do you know what a flagship is? It's a ship with a flag officer onboard, like an admiral of a moff. The Imperial fleet is divided into sector and regional commands headed by different flag officers. The Empire was created to have overlapping jurisdiction, so Oversector Commands, such as Azure Hammer Command, are stationed in specific sectors, but have no authority over Sector Commands, which are commanded by Moffs.


    Not quite true. For instance, a Grand Moff routinely deals with competing Sector Commands in his priority Oversector. A Grand Admiral also has theoretically unlimited authority in completing any task the Throne assigns him: for instance, Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik's command of the defenses of [over]Sector Zero meant that he had authority over any and all Sector Commands, which are commanded by high admirals or moffs acting in that capacity. Do recall that moffs are administrators and though they're generally given the powers of a high admiral to deal with sector forces, it's not always the case.

    If a Grand Admiral in possession of a roving fleet command, or the Supreme Commander for that matter, needed to requisition units from the local sector group, he could easily do so. That was, for instance, how Vader and the Emperor gathered the fleet at Endor: the radio drama asserts it's partly composed of the local Sector Group. That's also, for instance, for Lord Vader took command of Lord Tion's HIMS Devastator. It's a fairly common naval practice, actually.

    There's no such thing as the "flagship of the Imperial Starfleet" of course, since the Starfleet doesn't exist as a single deployable entity. That's probably what you meant. :)

    Though Kudzu is probably confused over the proper words he wants to employ. HIMS Executor is certainly the most prestigious ship in the fleet, and one that has unimpeded clearance to go anywhere and do anything: but it's not really a 'flagship of the Starfleet' in any sense but the figurative, in that the head of the military happens to fly his flag on it.


    The Empire wasn't created for overlapping authority. It was created for the purpose of allowing the Sith to rule the galaxy.


    Yes, and overlapping authority makes sure that no one has sufficient authority to build up a huge fleet that can possibly threaten the Emperor's power.

    Darth Vader could, in theory, "boss" around a Grand Admiral--but only if it directly pertained in his direct mission of eliminating the Rebel HQ. Otherwise, the Grand Admirals are protected by their need to only report to the Galactic Emperor himself. If he, for instance, wanted to detach one of Thrawn's ships to add to Death Squadron he could do that, but he couldn't tell Thrawn how to run whatever operation he might be involved in.
    />
  16. President_Sharky Jedi Master

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    Kudzu: You obviously know nothing about how the Empire works. The Empire was created in a manner that it would not function without Palpatine's authority. The chains of command in the government and military were unclear, and it is stated many times that overlapping jurisdictions -- such as those between Grand Moffs, Grand Admirals, and the Emperor's Dark Jedi -- were one of the major causes of the Empire's dramatic collapse after the Battle of Endor.
  17. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    @ Jello: Yeah, that's what I meant. That'd be an extraordinarily ridiculous and large engagement for the entire Imperial Starfleet to be present in a single battle, and the Empire wasn't designed for that large-scale of engagements. The only resistance that they might face would be, well, Rebels.

    It'd be interesting to see how their methods of conducting their military and governmental management would hold up when the Yuuzhan Vong attacked...

    @ Sharky: Thank you, but I'm not an idiot. Of course the Empire wasn't built to function without an Emperor.
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    And if you don't believe Sharky, the Essential Guide to Characters and the Imperial Sourcebook directly confirm what he's saying. :)
  19. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

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    So how thick must one be to think that Palpatine would have designed his Empire with the capability to function fairly normally even in the absence of an Emperor? o_O How screwed up the chain of command appears in the Empire dates back to ANH, with that naval officer arguing with Vader in a most insubordinate way and more majorly the balance of power between Vader and Tarkin.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Charlemagne: Do you really thing twenty-five thousand ISDs are enough? Need I remind you how big space is? Sector Groups are just patrol ships, they don't have the power to put down dedicated insurrections. That's why ISDs are so multipurpose, they're capable of dealing with a wide range of small threats.

    This is where people have severe issues that need to first be addressed. First of all, the Empire isn't patrolling space. The Empire is patrolling 1,000 sectors. Specifically there are 1,000,000 worlds in the Empire with including planets that are tiny garrisons or have a population of about 13.

    It has always been difficult for people to understand just how the Empire maintained order. I shall tell you how they maintained order...surgical strikes or bombing and genocide.

    Do you know how a Imperial Star Destroyer would deal with the a Rebellion of the United States? Barring there is an exceptional reason not to...it would reduce it to its base crust and let it serve as an object lesson to the rest of the galaxy.

    The Star Destroyer wasn't a weapon for maintaining order, it was a weapon of annihilation. A single star destroyer could crush the entirety of planet Earth within the space of a month I'm fairly certain and that would be if they weren't simply given the mission of reducing the rubble the major cities and letting God sort them out.

    The Republic didn't need a military because everyone more or less governed themselves, the Empire had a more "direct" approach.

    But when corporations and individual systems can purpose spacecraft that are several times the size of an ISD and when a common planetary turret can slice right through the shields and armor of an ISD like butter, stronger ships are needed. The SSD is but one example of this.

    Quite simply, rubbish. Before the ISD there was no larger ship and a ISD consumes the resources of a good three systems average income to create. A single warp jump uses more energy than a great city of the Empire uses in a year. This is all stated in the WEG roleplaying game which remains the best comprehensive guide the EU has to offer about EVERYTHING (and was rightfully so). It's a pity they didn't point out the Prequels. The ISD was thought insane by military strategists (Star Wars RPG handbook) because nothing like it had ever been tried before.

    The ships are so ridiculously expensive that it nearly broke the fleet's annual budget to create the first one. The Exector was significantly MORE expensive yet the Emperor cared nothing for tax money and simply robbed his populous when he needed more.

    The Empire birthed the most powerful ships in existence and the Clone Wars ships were pathetic in comparison and they were the strongest ships ever created before them.

    Have some respect for His Majesty's nightmarishly overpowerful navy.

    Yes, the Imperial corporates had power but it required a Star System Sized fleet yard to create an ISD?Who would build these ships? Kuat? The Empire destroyed or nationalized all rivals and none had the resources or insane ambition as the Empire.
  21. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    Correction. The Trade Federation Battleship is 2.0km in Diameter and it masses more than the ISD. There were already ships larger than the ISD long before the ISD came along.

    The Venators are hardly pathetic and they were fine ships for their size. Then compare those with the ships IBC and others, with the Recuesant destroyers having turbolasers powerful enough to blast a small planetoid to bits.

    And oh by the way, how did you arrive at that "Million worlds" when a galaxy has easily billions of stars? Even considering the few that went nova or had binary star systems? No, even 25000 is paltry to even police or control 100 million star systems.
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Correction. The Trade Federation Battleship is 2.0km in Diameter and it masses more than the ISD. There were already ships larger than the ISD long before the ISD came along.

    Two can play the movie game. LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THEM and compare them to an ISD. Not even close.

    It may be overwritten by cannon but the only reason WEG can't make a fix is because of the license. The majesty and power of the ISD should and would have been preserved.

    The Venators are hardly pathetic and they were fine ships for their size. Then compare those with the ships IBC and others, with the Recuesant destroyers having turbolasers powerful enough to blast a small planetoid to bits.

    I reiterate, the ISDs are the most powerful ships of their time by leaps and bounds.

    And oh by the way, how did you arrive at that "Million worlds" when a galaxy has easily billions of stars? Even considering the few that went nova or had binary star systems?

    Wizards of the Coast RPG.

    1,000,000 species

    1,000,000 planets

    (obviously some planets have many species and others have only one)
  23. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    And hopefully, you haven't forgotten the countless colonies that each species founded or through terraformation. The Miraluka themselves had a few, though one large one with a huge population got consumed for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So no, I disagree with that figure. The ones who concocted the figure obviously never even tried reading a book on astronomy. Even 25000 is a huge stretch to even police 1 million planets.

    Two can play the movie game. LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THEM and compare them to an ISD. Not even close.

    An ISD is only 1.6km long and probably... 400m in width? Ah that is indeed "massive". Tsk.. Comparing that with a shp that's 2.0km in diameter and was originally a mega freighter and reactor spaces huge enough to power 40 huge quad turbolasers.
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    And hopefully, you haven't forgotten the countless colonies that each species founded or through terraformation. The Miraluka themselves had a few, though one large one with a huge population got consumed for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So no, I disagree with that figure. The ones who concocted the figure obviously never even tried reading a book on astronomy. Even 25000 is a huge stretch to even police 1 million planets.

    Terraforming is not a procedure that is undertaken lightly I remind you (and I remind you not all the galaxy is explored either). It's a process that takes many decades and a huge amount of resources. I also remind you that wars are common place in Star Wars and its very easy to wipe out a planetary population even without the power of an ISD.

    The ISDs were last resort weapons also. If there was an ISD above your planet, it was probably going to be your last. An ISD enters a system, a conflict ENDs. A single victory ended a planetary civil war with relative ease as the system's fleet was annihilated in TIE fighter.

    The RPG has always done it's best to establish that stormtroopers and ISDs have a certain grandeur to them that is as special as a Jedi Knight (and there were only 10,000 of them).

    An ISD is only 1.6km long and probably... 400m in width? Ah that is indeed "massive". Tsk.. Comparing that with a shp that's 2.0km in diameter and was originally a mega freighter and reactor spaces huge enough to power 40 huge quad turbolasers.

    It's tiny compared to an ISD, I don't care what you say otherwise. Even if I'm wrong, the entire EU up until the prequels has built around this idea and it all comes tumbling down if the ISD isn't huge on the scale of things. Freighters do exist larger than ISDs but the ISD is the largest battleship up until this time (barring unknown exceptions like the Eye of Palpatine and the ships of Vuffi's people)

    Let's look at the Truce of Bakura for example. The power of a Carrack Cruiser, a ship MINISCULE to an Imperial Star Destroyer is able to repulse the Ssirruuk ships by some lengths. Visions of the future has the ISDs present tear through the ships sent to Bothwanni on a easy scale despite their vast outnumbering.
  25. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    It's tiny compared to an ISD, I don't care what you say otherwise. Even if I'm wrong, the entire EU up until the prequels has built around this idea and it all comes tumbling down if the ISD isn't huge on the scale of things. Freighters do exist larger than ISDs but the ISD is the largest battleship up until this time (barring unknown exceptions like the Eye of Palpatine and the ships of Vuffi's people)

    The entire EU is flawed since it based on the presumption that the ISD was a ship of the line. The Trade Federation Battleship further substantiated that fact that it was flawed. A corporation could finance its own army, and goes further to show that megacorporations like the IBC, Kuat could run their own fleet, and not to mention, the EU even had Mandators and others which were the predecessors of the Executors. The ISD's purpose was patrol like all Destroyers in the modern world do. The ISD was not and should never have been. There were ships in Dark Empire that made the ISD look miniscule as hell. Allegiance "Super Star Destroyer" perhaps? What justification do you have to say that 25000 is enough to police 100 million worlds, and where was it said that much of the Galaxy was unexplored? More like the maps weren't available. Even the Chiss had better maps of the Unknown Region than the Empire. Considering that 25000 years of exploration had taken place, that is highly unlikely.

    If the US Navy had to number at least 100 ships (Correct that figure someone) just to police a small planet's ocean, I can hardly imagine how many ships would be enough to run 75% of the Galaxy with a 25000 ships that's hardly enough to even police 10 million star systems.
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