Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Wouldn't that be great if your micro Sun Crusher actually worked and you could rule our galaxy through a tiny micro-terror?
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  2. The Kulvax Sisters Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2013
    star 2
    So it seems to have been cleared up that
    Show Spoiler
    Korriban, Pesagim and Moraband are indeed the same planet, just different names, next to nothing has been retconned on that front... however Darth Bane is an entirely different story.


    MODified: Spoilers
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, Mar 7, 2014
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  3. Krueger Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    Don't spoil the Yoda arc.
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, Mar 7, 2014
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  4. cronedoggy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    If Lucasfilm as decided to jettison and decannonize the EU, why bother saying that Moraband is the present day name for Korriban? I'm wondering if they are only going to jettison everything after ROTJ, or if they want to use the twins and jedi academy might even keep up to 10 ABY cannon.
  5. TheBBP Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5

    Lucas has always been clear that nothing in the EU, especially anything after ROTJ is safe. He is not going to allow people to dabble in what his vision for the Skywalkers is.
  6. cronedoggy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    I know they can choose to get rid of anything at anytime. I'm only noting that it is curious after all the recent "The EU doesn't matter" talk to put on the official site that Moriban is the planet as Korriban. This seems to be an effort to play nice with the KOTOR stories when they could have just said "bah, there never was a korriban."
  7. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Chances are, if this planet shows up in the movies, most people will have never heard of Korriban
  8. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Playing nice is saying Korriban is Moraband?

    Lucas doesn't believe it's called Korriban anymore, so why should we?
  9. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Cause I prefer Korriban and still find Morriband a dumb name, plus teasing new fans by calling it Korriban is gonna be so much fun. :p [face_devil]
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 7, 2014
  10. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    Saying that Moriband is Koriban is the literal definition of a retcon. which we will see much in the ST era. However, the difference between a simple planet name retcon and the entire butt load of post ROTJ EU history having to mesh up with the ST takes it beyond simple retcons.
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  11. TheBBP Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5
    Ignoring the EU is not a retcon. Especially when their stance has been canon = movies and TCW.
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  12. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5

    Yah but they did go out of their way to mention the Koriban / Moriband thingie to make it fit. I think it boils down to easy stuff to cram in = retcons. Big Damn Post ROTJ Stuff = not canon!
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  13. TheBBP Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5

    Leland Chee said that Lucas simply didn't like Coruscant and Korriban having a similar sound. The rest of the planet as portrayed in the episode is just as it is in the EU. Sith Academy structure and all.
  14. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    LFL as a whole ever since the EUs creation? This is a falsehood. For 15 years the EU was canon (C-Level), minus conflicts with the prequals was a later edit to this.

    Lucas since ~2008 (and mostly in regards to a ST when the topic of the EU came up)? This is fact, before not so much unless it involved conflct with the prequals.

    Since TCW producers started getting asked when they started breaking EU? This is true, more so as years went by.

    It was offical policy that the EU was canon unless it conflicted with G or T level canon. This part has now been cut though. Moriband's rename is a retcon but its not really ignoring anything either since minus the name it is still Korriban. The EU is now a well of ideas, they won't ignore parts that are useful to them but they will retcon them to reshape them with excuses like this is more in line with Lucas's vision. Which will only true from a certain point of view, its 'Lucac's vision now' but not likely before they wanted to edit it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on them... just saying its shrewd business to get EU fans who support Lucas to side with them vs any lingering reservations they had of wanting to support the old. This at the end of the day is retconning, the fall of the EU so to speak.

    To quote Kreia: "It is such a quite thing, to fall. But far more terrible to admit it" or in this case the EU is being slowly revealed to be dying at the moment and it will be very hard and painful for many to see it, accept it, and/or admit that some parts of it besides the movies, TCW and Rebels are safe for what ever reason.

    Now to quote Yoda: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the force. Mourn them do not." In otherwords the EU is dying but becoming a well of ideas and will in time be reborn. Just as any living thing in Star Wars mythology is part of the living force but when it dies it becomes part of the unifying force cosmic force (again, a new name again added in the Yoda arc that replaces old EU but is the same bloody thing, I get this change due to wanting to show its grandure and not its purpose but find it less deep but more easy for general audiences to grasp with the new name but that's nitpicking) but the cosmic force creates new life, thus the two feed each other.

    I'm a huge EU fan and moving on will be hard for me... I'm on this site to move on before the ST gets released so I can enjoy it for what it is and not hate it for all the collected EU stories I fell in love with it won't be. There will be times ahead I'll likely go 'wth LFL' due to a EU retcon, mostly since I see it as a moronic move that served no purpose other than they could.

    Sorry I digressed there a bit, point is the EU was canon...until new content for a new larger audience became the concern vs more content for the same diehard fans (Id argue Lucas being an Executive Producer on TCW was the straw that broke the camels back or at least made it the inevitable outcome). Exactly when this started to become the new way is up for debate but it has always been their, just growing in scope over the years with each new wave of retcons. From the death of the Marvel comics status when TTT started a new EU, to the EU authors fighting for a direction amoung themselves, to the the PT doing new thing which killed some EU, to KotOR the game killing the comics, to TCW killing more EU, to the ST/Rebels/Spinoffs/etc pretty much nailing the final nail in the coffin with the rest... that said nothing stops the EU from becoming a well of ideas for the ST/Rebels/Spinoffs/etc after all, why not its already been fan-tested and approved, so just repackage what they just killed with a new logo, now the EU fans feel happy that ____ has 'survived'



    Nope... I spotted tons of bad geopraphy vs Korriban. That place has a bizillion times more mountains and next to no great valley. :p

    But really?:oops:it sounding like Corcusant was one of the best parts about it... *sigh*
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 7, 2014
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  15. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5

    The nitpicking about "this EU thing now in TCW/movies is not exactly like the EU thing it was before" kind of defeats the purpose of seeing the EU thing in the mainstream flagship franchise. When something jumps mediums, it's going to inherently change based upon the specifics of that medium and the creators working on it. Heck, Luke Skywalker in the movies is portrayed differently in the novels simply because the medium / pagecount adds more layers to his character and thought process that the movies can't. The same thing is going to happen when EU Thing XYZ shows up in the movies or TV series. Things change, it can't be exactly as it was in another medium.

    Which is why whenever some goes of on "In the EU this is blah blah blah not yadda yadda yadda!" drives me batty. That's going to happen quite a lot more in the Disney era where they'll grab a bunch of things from the EU to flesh out the universe but the details will change (see how TCW used the EU, which I think is an excellent example of how to use the EU in the other mediums. That's how it should work). I think expecting something to be the exact same across every medium ever is a bit silly. The fact that it goes from one medium to another means that it's not going to be exactly the same.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Mar 7, 2014
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  16. TheBBP Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5
    Lucas has always been consistent with expressing that the books and comics were separate from the films. The films and now TCW are canon. The EU is a big conflicting mess, which is why they are working to one consistent canon.
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  17. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Shadows of the Empire and The Force Unleashed say hello... [face_tee_hee]
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 7, 2014
  18. TheBBP Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5

    I had forgotten about SotE, which was a fun story btw. However, considering TFU:

    Last edited by TheBBP, Mar 7, 2014
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  19. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Only when the Sun Crusher Marries Luke Skywalker/ Has a unique connection to the Emperor/ Routinely Punks and makes Darth Vader jealous and has the Force itself make good, then and only then can you say it's a bigger Mary Sue
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  20. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Sun Crusher piloted by Han Solo, Faster than the Falcon (sub-light confirmed, hyperdrive unknown but its at least 1.0), unique tie in to Tarkin and 'the this books Darth Vader' (Exar Kun) plus Kyp who was the wishfulment character of the book, more powerful than the Death Star both offensivly and defensivly, next to impossible backstory, so evil and powerful but only ever blew up bad guys (even going as far as blowing up bad guys who where about to blow up the most heavy populated world in the galaxy full of innocent (Corcusant when Dalla wanted to hyperdrive ram a Star Destroyer into it), a imperial brainwashing stromtrooper key production planet, then later helped kill a Death Star which was about to go blow stuff up... which puts Mara Jades only killing bad guys backstiry to shame they both did it but the suncrusher did it better and in a different kill bracket), this most evil and powerful technalogicial terror became the anti-hero Mary Sue (Kyp's) repemption as well as his cross to bare (but he black holed his cross so everything is awesome), can escape Star Destoryers by ramming them (its defensive is so powerful its offensive), implied to be Palpatines most perfect terror weapon ever, etc...

    Now when you get down to it, Mary Sue (the original one) wasn't just a wishfulment character but also one that was just too good for this world. Mara Jade wasn't since she survived close to 50 books (next off half of her Sueism's came later) but the Sun Crusher lasted three (was a Mary Sue of the highest scale from its intro to long after its destruction) and its death was also use as a plot device to redeem a character who at the time was stated to be even more powerful than Luke Skywalker and bestest pals with Han Solo... and literally was the main target market demographic thrown onto the page (Mara Jade being the reverse, the eye candy to the main target market demographic... not saying one is worse, just stating what they where)

    Mara Jade is a Mary Sue on the scales of Ahsoka Tano (a too perfect action girl tied to the main character, slight difference in book format using the saying she's amazing ad nausium trope vs tv format trope of showing only her ad nausium being able to do/see something) Star Wars has had dozens of such characters (Batsila Shan, Nomi Sunrider, Mirax (Corran's wife forget spelling was a female Han), all the love intresets in SWTOR, etc...).. however rarely has Star Wars ever gone the extra mile and had its Mary Sue also be the Its too good for this world trope too. Star Wars has always been about milking characters till a more important character/plot needs them to die, but a Mary Sue by its original role of being a wishfulment fanfiction plot device to get their dream into the plot but out again as quickly as possible to not interferre with it Star Wars almost has never done... one of the few exceptions was The Sun Crusher.
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 8, 2014
  21. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Hmm wouldn't Kyp be classed as a Gary Stu rather than Mary and was Kun the Vader ? he seemed more Palpatine, even the Artwork on the book covers have him look like Palpatine. Kyp seemed more similar to the Anakin Skywalker talked about in the OT. Strong in the force with much Anger, With Han being Obi-wan and Luke being a quasi Yoda the falling to the darkside etc.

    As for Mary Sue
    Below is what it says on Wikipedia and after reading it, how can you not say Mara is not a Mary Sue. She fits the profile perfectly. While the Sun Crusher seems more KJA's version of a Duexmachina, albiet and awful one.

    Origin[edit]
    The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale"[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.[4] Such characters were generally original female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters. By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:
    Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.[5]
    "Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[7
  22. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    so Wesley Crusher was a Mary Sue?
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  23. The Kulvax Sisters Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2013
    star 2
    "Korriban appears in the final episodes of Star Wars: The Clone Wars. George Lucas preferred the name "Moraband" to Korriban during story development, leading the episode "Sacrifice" to refer to the planet as Moraband. The episode guide's trivia gallery clarified the issue, stating that Korriban has had multiple names throughout its history. As Korriban is referred to as such in material that is later in terms of in-universe chronology, this article retains the planet's name of Korriban."
  24. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    @fett 4 A deus ex machina is a literary plot device where a NEW all powerful character or object swoops in AT THE LAST MINUTE to radically alter the plot. Therefore the sun crusher being ever present in the JA trilogy can't be a deus ex machina. It was a popular plot device in ancient greece, but has become vastly hated now adays (example the hologram boy at the end of Mass Effect 3, sorry had to take that shot :p )

    Next off a Gary Stu is a Mary Sue, its just some guys had to have a boys name instead. The real term therefore is still Mary Sue regardless of gender, race, or being living or not... as long as its wishfulment/self-insertion and has at least some personifaction to it, which the both the Falcon and sun crusher did, difference is the Falcon wasn't a Mary Sue since it failed on them half the time while the Sun Chrusher was practically immortal and the best at everything. Ships in Star Wars are often alluded to having personalities by the pilots in the series and the audience, so using character tropes can be accuracte.

    Id also recommend you read tvtropes.com explaining Mary Sue, its far more detailed, filled with tons of examples of proper uses, multiple other ways to define it, and incorrect uses. I also love how you told me the term has radically altered its meaning then proceeded to tell me its original usage... which I had already alluded to.
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 8, 2014
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  25. Rebel_Loyaltist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2001
    star 2

    Where/when did he say this? I'd love to burn some Trekkies with this.