One Problem: WHat the hell were you thinking, George???

To me Anakin has to show his innocence at a young age, which is partly due to the fact of his upbringing. Furthermore I think GL is portraying that little children, don?t keep grudges, or are violent in nature, but due to experiences, sometimes due to bad company they start to deviate and make choices that alter their earlier perceptions of life.

But the real point for TPM to start the saga is to show that the Galaxy is a big place ,which has existed for so long. However the Republic is starting to show some wear and tear, and that there are other forces (that existed several years before Anakin was born) changing the way things used to function. So Anakin is an individual who is born at about the same time as when the Galaxy has made a turn, no thanks in part to a certain well experienced Senator, who been around, organizing a plan to distrupt the Republic?s progress. But at TPM?s point we know something is wrong but not able to place a finger on it. This is where Obi Wan?s ?something elsewhere elusive? come into play. Later its Qui Gon who accepts this fact ?there?s something else behind this?.

So here?s a kid Anakin who exists at a turning point in the Republic, which I feel is the right time to introduce the Saga. What most individuals in the Galaxy do not know in is that there are dark forces in action, a much bigger PLAN that the good side cannot truly comprehend till its too late.

Anakin is also just part of this existence, just that he himself is unaware what that entails. Its just good timing for Palpatine as he also learns of Anakin?s potential, but in reality he?s in it for himself and will stop at nothing to get his way. I believe that if he felt that Anakin was a inhibition to his plans, Im sure would have made sure either that he?ll find a way to get rid of him or as we later as we find out make use of him, make use of his vulnerability.

So, in essence, TPM is fine (to me) as it is. Anakin is just a speck of that bigger world, a world Palpatine is much more familiar with and deviously attempting to dismantle what the Republic used to be respected for.

 

all that you just wrote like i said could be communicated in 15 minutes, or better yet, while ani is about 18, young and dreamy eyed.

 

So what you want is a flashback sort of thing?

 

something like that, maybe not even that, maybe just a scene where his roots are explained while on lookers watch him do something amazing. or maybe just a line like, "who would have guessed that a boy from (insert world, any other than tatooine) could be like this. i just saw no need for the toy selling machine geared towards ten year old boys that TPM was. and if you want to read all about why check my last long post.,.

 

Yeah, I saw that. Quite a load full (not that mine wasn't ).

But the main issue (I believe) in the PT's is to introduce the Saga to the young so that, progressively they'll see the development of the Republic to what it becomes, The Empire and of course Anakin Skywalker who turns to DV. Having Anakin as a wide eyed child, full of goodness, the 7-10 year age audience should be able to relate.

We're still missing one more chapter, and it remains to be seen how things really connect.

 

see with me you dont need to add a fan base. It is already there, the critics bashed both movie and it still tore it up at the box office. I saw it 5 times, and i didnt even like it... THe youth would of loved it regardless, look at what happened with the originals, luke was 18, but those of us who grew up with it had no problem loving it. The kid movies isnt needed when you have the force and light sabers.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>Personally i think that he should have fallen completly by the mid point of the triology. THat way we could have a more in depth look at ANikin/vader. This way you could see his training and even get to see jedi hunting and the rise of the empire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Structurally, it wouldnt make since for his fall to be completeed by the midpoint of the trilogy. His redemption isnt complete until the end of ROTJ, so why should his fall be complete by the middle of the PT? As someone else said, we dont need to see much of Vader, and we really dont need to see Anakin training. And we ARE seeing the rise of the Empire. It is just happening very gradually. If anything, we probably needed more movies for Anakin's fall, but, oh well, we only have 3 to work with here.

 

agreed, we need more movies for anikins fall, that is the purpose of the ellimination of the 10 years olds movie, it allows for greater times and focus to be spent on events and characters.

 

It shouldn't have been the darkest but I agree with you on other points. It was marketed for a different audience, and that is why it turned most older fans off.

 

I cant beleive there are people out there who still think that episode 1 has no importance, and that Anakin didnt need to be a kid. For the hundred millionth time, I will explain why.


ANAKIN HAD TO BE A KID IN TPM. SW is about growing up. Specifically, the PT is about the path from childhood to adolescence. In TPM, Anakin is a child who is attached to his mother, just like in any good child-mother relationship. It wouldnt work if he was 16, because then he would have already hit puberty!!! He wouldn't be attached to his mother because he would be interested in other women!! In TPM, Padme is a mythological mother that is on a pedastal that Anakin cannot reach because he is still attached to his mother.

In AOTC, Anakin is not conciously attached to his mother, but he keeps having dreams about her. "I dont know why I keep dreaming about her. I'd much rather dream about Padme." On Naboo, after Anakin is rejected by his symbolic mother, he has a dream sequence about his literal mother. THe dream sequence represents puberty, sexual realization, and discovering women for the first time. I like to think that its not an accident that a lot of people thought Anakin was doing something "naughty" under those covers. He then goes to Naboo only to find his mother die in his arms. He has to let go of his mother, something that every man must do. As long as Shmi was alive, Anakin and Padme could not be together. Now that Shmi is dead, Anakin is now free to be with Padme or any other woman, because to some extent a man's wife is thought to be a replacement for his mother which was the 1st woman in his life. This represents an emotional struggle that all men deal with subconciously everyday of their life. The relationship that you use to have with your mother when you were a child is dead, and it can never be brought back. You might have heard about very old men who are senile and losing their mind, and how they might cry for thier mothers. This explains it.

tHE reason Anakin was did not go to Tatooine to check up on his mother is :

#1. As a Jedi he probably wastn allowed b/c it is an emotional attachment.
#2 Once he hits puberty he is only subconciously attatched to his mother. He was not conciously attached to his mother. All he thought about was Padme.

And I dont care what people say. It would not have had as an emotional effect if Anakin was an adult in TPM. Does anybody in here really have the same emotional need for their mother that you did when you were a child? I sure dont.

 

"Actually to the orginal poster, I think it would of been great if the first movie had started in the middle of the Clone Wars."

I disagree, because then people would be saying: "Well, what caused the Clone Wars? I thought Lucas was going to explain all of this stuff." The PT had to begin at a time when there had been peace in the galaxy for a long time.

"exibiting great pilot skills that are mentioned in the ot and not yet shown in the pt, if anyone refers to POD racing as piloting star crafts please start another thread cause i will debate you on that and this not the thread to do it on."

If you really want to debate that, you can do so in an old thread I created here. I think there's another thread on it floating around this forum too.

 

tpm shows only a little of what caused the clone wars...this could easily been rewritten into the second movie, like i said before there could be a battle that ani at 17 or 18 fights in that can spark the clone war. and the background can be given in the scroll at the beginning and elaborated on through out the movie...

 

On the Anakin's age topic...MHO

The problem with having Anakin as a 9 year old is....the acting obviously isn't all that great. Now I don't wanna bash Jake Lloyd so I think the solution would be to make him older. It would have been just as easy to convey the same "pulled away from his mother" feeling at age 13 or 14 only with better acting from a pivotal character. It would have made the Padme Anakin relationship a little more believable.

But I don't think a 17 year old Anakin would be all that great either. We've seen it already with Luke....making a younger hero would bring some variation which is good.

Now I know some would say that it is not necessary to show Anakin younger than 17 after all we didn't need to see LUke's early years and he almost went to the darkside. But with Anakin one of the reasons he turned was he was torn from his mother at an early age...Luke was old enough to accept the loss of his uncle and aunt. A reason Luke almost turned to the darkside was his frustration of not being able to leave Tantooine which kinda turned into impatience...which leads to the dark side. Lucas was able to convey this in ANH without showing LUke in his early years. Whereas Anakin's fall really needed to show the loss of his mother....which is why he needed to be younger in TPM.

Well thats JMO....

 

Well thats JMO....

What about me?

 

elfmatrix, I can see where you are coming from with him being 13 or 14, because that would make the story seem less kiddy like. The only problem I have with that is he would already be well into puberty. Even as young as age 13 and 14, men have already lost that emotional need for their mothers and have already started to seek it from other women. In TPM Anakin is at the perfect age. He is just old enough to be out of the "girls are yucky stage" but just young enough to not yet be in puberty and is still attached to his mother. Its a Freud thing that Lucas is going for. Whatever problems you guys had with Anakin being a kid, Lucas must have had a very good reason to make Anakin a kid. He knew everyone would hate it that Anakin was a kid, but he made him a kid anyway because he says that is very important to the story. So he has a very good reason for it. That is why I give credit to Lucas b/c he has the guts to do things like that, where most storytellers wouldnt.

 

MasterKinsamma

Padme and Anakin are actually only four years apart. He's 10, she's 14. Age differences between the sexes pretty much dissapear by the time you reach your 20's

George Lucas has said "A lot of the fans aren't going to like the fact that Anakins that young, but in order for the seperation to be more trumatic, he had to be young. That's were the story begins"

Lucas firmly believes that we make our "choice" to be evil. He wanted to show the contrast between the two, and how a persoon could make bad choices, even if they thought they were right. So you had to begin with Anakin being a hopeful, optimistic boy. You had to show the Republic filled with joy and peace. You had to show evil sneaking into power-because that's how Democracies become Dictatorship. There is a reason for it being called "The Phantom Menance" because the true menance wasn't detected.

As far as Story Arcs and Character Development are concerned-TPM does a fine job.

What we are taling about here is a two levevels of story arc. You have the Entire Saga...Which is Anakins Fall and His Redemption. And the two Trillogy arcs...Which are Anakins fall the darkside (The PT) and the Luke who rises to the Jedi.(THE OT)

Following second tier of the plot stucture Anakin had to start out good in the first movie. By the second movie he should be on the brink of going to the darkside. By the third movie he will embrace his darkside fully.

In the TPM Anakin acts without "a thought for himself" He is very helpful and protective of his friends. Even when it looks like the Jedi's wont take him...he doesn't want to be trouble" However...once Qui-Gon dies-he becomes aware that he has no one to look out for him...and that he is trully alone. He ask a selfish question "What is going to happen to me?"

Already, Anakin has begun to slip into the darkside...but not quite. He has become painfully aware of his own existence...and his fears, wants and needs.

 

rpeugh:

I see what u mean and it is a very good reason. But I think any kid being pulled away away from his mom and friends at age 13 or maybe even 14 would not take it well. IIRC, in the movie Seabiscuit, Red was 13 or 14 when he was pulled away from his parents and look at how it affected him. But I guess thats a little off topic...but the point is a young teen can have problems being separated from parents too.

u're also right that it would be MORE traumatic at age 9....but it would have been easier to convey in the movie, I think, with an older kid who was a more experienced actor. Not that Jake Lloyd was bad(personally I wasn't nuts about him but its not my place to say when others could have a different oppinion)....but a good 13 or 14 year old actor would have been better due to more experience. thats all...

 

It was marketed for a different audience, and that is why it turned most older fans off.

Ummmm...it was marketed to the exact same kind of audience base. It just so happens that the original base grew up and was replaced by a new generation.

...why it turned most older fans off.

Unless you have actual figures you can cite saying that 50%+1 of older fans were turned off, please avoid making these kind of disingenuous statements in the future.

 

"I have mad e the statement that TPm could be summerized in the first 5-15 minutes of the the first movie"

in 10-15 mins? how can you show,

1. the federations invasion of naboo

2. palpatines manipulation of events

3. anakin winning the podrace

4. anakin building 3P0

5. Obi taking responsibilty of the training of Anakin

etc. etc. all these are vital to Star Wars, including the bit about 3P0.

"First of all you dont need to show ani as a doofy little kid to show that he is innocent"

a doofy little kid who built his own droid and won an incredibly dangerous race against all the odds and who expressed true altruism in his efforts to help Qui Gonn and the others. doofy?

"if anyone refers to POD racing as piloting star crafts please start another thread cause i will debate you on that and this not the thread to do it on"

ok, bit all Ben said was "when i first met him, he was already a great pilot". who mentioned star crafts, apart from you?

"at this point gl has a to cover the fall, the training of anikin as a sith, the twins, the clone wars, the rise of the emporer, the hunting of the jedi, and more all in around two hours... to me not enough time."

youre wrong. he doesnt have to do any of those things, he only has to do what he feels he has to do to make a good movie. certainly not to please some imagined fanbase. you kind of talk like youve seen episode 3 already.

"you should have gone and got her. or at least checked up on her..."

did you watch episode 2? attachments forbidden and all that?

 

First off if would have read my precious posts completely you might have understood what i ment, and that is that you can summerize anikins childhoodf in 5 - 15 minutes, even shorter if you use the beginning scroll. Besides some of your points are null if you operate under the assumption that GL did in fact start at the time of AOTC and not when aniken was 9. Also see my other previous posts to see how the ideas in this film can be presented in AOTC.

1. the federations invasion of naboo

easily pushed to when anikin in 18 and has equall effect.

2. palpatines manipulation of events

already understood by viewers, and can be illustrated just as easy in the events in AOTC

3. anakin winning the podrace

who cares, has no really baring on the story, and can be replaced by meaningful events, like aniken actually flying a star craft and fighting. besides it is like watching a Disney movie, look the hero is down oh wait no he won.

4. anakin building 3P0

again no direct baring on the plot and can be disposed of.

In this SW fans opinion nothing more than another needless, lame, none essencial parallel/ character cameo.

5. Obi taking responsibilty of the training of Anakin

Two things:
1. We never see any training in the Film.
2. Can be easily shown in less than 2 seconds of the AOTC whem Aniken calls Him master, and OBi calls him my Padawan.

As for ANi, man even the name is lame, being doofy, sure he did all those things, but that doesnt stop him from being an annoying little kid. Many great people who have done great things, are in fact doofy and annoying.

as for the Obiwan in the OT i do beleive he says star pilot. and i will have to find a VCR and watch the OT in order to check that, cause i could be wrong.

But pilot does imply flying, which does imply planes, or in this case star ships. Sure u could say that I piloted my car to work today or even that Jeff Gordon pilots his nascar Monte Carlo, but that doesnt make sense.

In terms of all the ground that GL has to cover, you are right it is his right to stop at any point, or omit things as he pleases. BUT, to exclude thoughs event will result in an uncomplete story, and leave holes in the plot.

In terms of ANikens mother, what would a wiser decision in terms of elliminating "attatchments", leaving her in slavery so aniken can wonder every day if his mother is all right, or has she been sold to some abusive scum bag, or buying her out of slavery and setting her up in a safer life so aniken's last memory is of her being safe.

 

BECAUSE that does not rid him of the attachment. All the other Jedi dont have anything to do with thier parents, why should Anakin get special treatment? If anything, that would make him more attached. Besides, he would be too busy to see her that much anyway. FOr the AE dvd set George should do a q and a section that addresses fans concerns about the potential "plot holes" of the story. THey did this for the Back to the Future dvd. Just about every fictional plot hole was covered by the filmmakers in the answers to those questions. GL should do the same thing.

 

Sure u could say that I piloted my car to work today or even that Jeff Gordon pilots his nascar Monte Carlo, but that doesnt make sense.

Does your car get off the ground?
Does Jeff Gordon's car have two giant engines on it?

Let the Star Wars characters call things what they want. When you own your very own high-performance hovering vehicle, you can insist on being the 'driver', not the 'pilot'.


as for the Obiwan in the OT i do beleive he says star pilot.
He says Anakin was a starpilot, yes.
But for "when I first met your father", he only says "a great pilot".
But pilot does imply flying, which does imply planes, or in this case star ships.
Luke refers to himself as a pilot when all he's ever flown was the skyhopper. Which is a little more airplane-like than a podracer, I guess, but hardly a starship.


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

ANH:

Obi-Wan: I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself.

Now, how many starships had Luke piloted at this point? Zero. He had never been off-planet.

 

Whoops Joda Jeff! Sorry, I missed that you replied to me. Correcting that now.

I disagree, because then people would be saying: "Well, what caused the Clone Wars? I thought Lucas was going to explain all of this stuff." The PT had to begin at a time when there had been peace in the galaxy for a long time.

Well, people are going to say that anyways about anything because they are hungry for the SW world. From the Sith Wars or where the Sith actually came from, or why there are only two, etc. Personally, I would of liked to have seen from almost the start some real meat-and-bones with Anikan and Obi-Wan. Almost like the begining of A New Hope where we are in the middle of a shoot out.

Another would be Obi-Wan just starting to take Anikan on and we have a brief exchange about he's worried about his mother, then we jump into the battle for Naboo. You know, there's the training in between, develop Anikan and Padme (being thrown together more.) I just feel if the movies had started with Anikan older and already in training it would of beefed up the story some.

I know it is usually called bad writting to have "Flash Backs" (because they are usually not handled well) but, conversational flash backs could of been used really well. Plus I think that would of perhaps given some of the mystery that the OT had to the PT that I think gave us all a bit of a thrill. If that makes sense.

 

In order for a story, and more so a saga, to flow there has to be a beginning and most of the time, reasoning as to how everything came to be. Episode I is merely that.