Full Series Order 66 on TCW

I'll give you the purging issue. I just don't see any reason not to believe that the general did make an attempt on Obama.

 

Didn't he kinda already do this?

 

LOL the Jedi were screwed without them the Republic was screwed. Although really the problem with the cartoons is that even if you don't know Palpatine is the Sith, there was more then enough evidence to make him look pretty guilty. Which makes it look like the Jedi were just not looking hard enough. Although really do they lack surveillance equipment seems you could have figured this crap out by bugging his office. Not to mention smoking guns, how does Obi-wan fail to sense Palpatine crushing Maul in a force fight, I can buy Palpatine hiding when he is not doing anything but that seems like it should be detectable. I mean the Palace has no surveillance equipment either. None of this gets caught on a holo-cam or anything. also i dont necessarily have a problem with mace going to fight him but seems maybe it would be better to put that on camera and beam that footage around. Or I dont know blast his office with some ranged weaponry.

 

Skaddix

Their failure to sense Palpatine is just because the Force is and has always been a useful plot device. Kind of like how if someone shoots a door panel it will either open or lock the door conveniently depending on what the plot needs.

Maul gets restored by Talzin and Yoda, who has never even met the guy, can sense Maul.

The most powerful Dark Side user alive starts pwning Maul and nobody knows so far as we know. I guess it's possible that going into Season 6 or 7, had TCW not been cancelled, we may have found out that the Jedi did sense something, but I have my personal doubts.

Anakin and Obi-Wan can sense the danger of a couple of centipedes in AOTC, but Ahsoka can't sense that her attacker is her good friend Barriss, etc.

The Force works in whatever way is most convenient to the plot.

 

Yeah Barriss is a good point not to mention how she breached a high security prison. If she had been on the Sith Payroll and received some training i could buy that but that being a total solo operation screams bs.

 

Moving this post over here since the BC thread has been over-run by Order 66 discussion (of which I am guilty):

I'm going to link to a post I made in the Order 66 thread a bit ago since it helps me make my point...

So, I've been saying how Cody is the one problem with every single Order 66 possibility for a while now, but when you look at the 4 "options," mentioned above, detailing what Order 66 actually consisted of, "The Cody Quandary" really becomes clear since the actions surrounding his character alone, present contradictions and support for almost every option:

We see him all "buddy-buddy" with Obi-wan before the battle of Utapau in ROTS. This falls in line with the idea that the Jedi Officers had strong relationships with their Clone subordinates - relationships of loyalty, trust, respect, admiration and specifically, friendship. This idea was strongly portrayed in TCW - throughout its run. Cody is portrayed this way throughout TCW and at one moment during ROTS, suggesting that, one of the following choices is accurate:

a) He's a damned good actor and the #2 and #4 options are still plausible.​

b) #1 is the accurate description of what happened.​

c) #3 is the accurate description of what happened.​

Then, in ROTS, when Palpatine contacts him to execute the order, Palpatine says 4 words that would create one of the biggest issues with discovering the solution: "…the time has come…" He says this to Cody, referring to Order 66, and Cody understands what he means - implying that Cody knew the Order was inevitable or at least expected. This suggests that either:

d) #2 is the accurate description of what happened.​

or​

e) #4 is the accurate description of what happened.​

​

So at this point, there is already a glaring problem with Order 66, based off of just Cody's character - and this is all in just ROTS! I haven't even gotten to TCW stuff yet. What happens next, is that you have fans and EU authors trying to reconcile the confusion. So Karen Traviss comes along and concludes that the only way to reconcile the seemingly-contradictory portrayals, is to say that its options 'a' and 'd' (however, not excluding option 'e' as a further contingency). So her reconciliation says the following:

f) # 2 is the accurate description for all "normal" CT's - however, some ARC troopers were genetically more independent and they rejected the order, even though the other CT's were so disciplined that they went through with it.​

If it had been left right there, there would be a plausible solution. It may not have been a solution many people liked, but it would have solved "The Cody Quandary." However, it was not left right there. The Clone Wars came along and began depicting Clones as having very strong relationships with their Jedi CO's. Okay, that still could fit the 'f' option. Not anythingtoo contradictory there. …and then there was Umbara. The arc that changed it all. Now, instead of saying that only a select few, who were ARC troopers, had the individuality to say "no" to Order 66, you had all sorts of Clones refusing to follow Orders that they were given (arguably, an ARC trooper - Fives - led the revolt, but regardless, the others revolted as well). So now, there is the need to reconcile this newly introduced portrayal. And what they've (presumably) come up with is this:

g) Traviss' 'f' option is no-longer canon (nor is the Battlefront II portrayal). Instead, #3 is the accurate portrayal of what went down and the line about "the time has come" was just Palpatine thinking out loud (an inner monologue moment of excitement/relief that the moment was finally here) but accidentally saying his thoughts to Cody in the process.​

Now, I recognize the confusing nature of all of this. However, I do believe that there is a different solution to "The Cody Quandary" and "Umbaran Inconsistency." I present, option 'H:'

h) #3 was the original conception of the Order when Palpatine went about his clone army plan all of those years ago, He assumed that they would most likely follow the order w/o pre-programming due to a nature/nurture disposition towards following orders, but just in case, he programmed them as well - to make sure. As the time approached to execute the Order, he pulled certain Clone Commanders aside in private and told them of his fears that the Jedi may be planning a coup. He warned them to be weary of their Jedi CO's and be prepared to execute the contingency Order that the Senate approved in order to oppress an attempt - if a coup were to be attempted. Some of the CC's then relayed this to their most trusted subordinate CTs - with some CCs even warning their entire battalion, regiment, brigade or corps - or just specific trusted squads or companies. This would reconcile everything: the inconstancies within ROTS, Traviss' work and Battlefront II, and TCW.​

The thing is, people want to say only the films count, but one film was what caused the confusion in the first place - so the EU was needed to help resolve the crisis (and I'm including TCW in there - yes, its higher on the hierarchy than other EU, but its still EU nonetheless). I'm not going to into things GL has said over the years because then there would never be a way to make it all work, but I think everything above gives a pretty good breakdown of the problems that formed and how they have been or could be addressed. I apologize for the WoT and I thank you all for your time.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Lucas changed his mind. Traviss wrote the contingency order based on what he said. You can't have an "Order 66" if there aren't another set of at least 65 orders. The only thing the brainwashing revelation is going to change will be the idea that the clones had total free will in the matter, and even so, genetic defects or a simply overriding of one's instinct can account for the (very) small number of clones who still failed to obey the order. There can also be some debate regarding whether or not the contingency orders were avaliable to the general public, or only kept on a document on Kamino the jedi read through once during the war's beginning and forgot about.

 

I remember in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader - a squad not following the order when it was relayed to them by their clone officers.

I'd like to see that kept.

 

They thought it might have been some kind of enemy disinformation:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ion_Team

 

I can't stress enough how much I hate the idea of it being a Manchurian Candidate style trigger is.

I would have been happy if Palpatine actually had to manipulate the clones to start distrusting the Jedi as he did everyone else, or I would have been fine with it just being a contingency order.

The films never got into the nitty-gritty of it, but the clones would have had to have had a severely messed up life. They are created on a planet that is not part of the Republic, and spend their whole life training to serve the Republic and are indoctrinated with an unshakable loyalty to a government they never knew. Might as well raise children in a warehouse in China to be unquestionably loyal to the United States and to give their life for it voluntarily. It's a really morally bankrupt situation that I was disappointed to not see addressed at all in TCW.

But point being, when you have individuals that are brainwashed, not to mention being modified in whatever way to possess a lesser degree of independence, then it really isn't that hard for me to believe that when the leader of the Republic, uses his emergency executive powers to issue a contingency order against the Jedi, that they obey it without question.

TCW has shown the clones to be unquestionably loyal to the Republic, though does nothing to call attention to how odd that situation is (10 year old man-clones, rabidly loyal to a government they were thrust into combat for over the course of the past three years). But otherwise TCW seemed to go out of its way to individualize the clones and make them likable, rather than showing them to be less independent brainwashed humans that look to authority for guidance.

 

If they're unquestionably loyal to the REPUBLIC, why don't they rebel when it's transformed into an Empire overnight? I guess you could say they saw the Empire and the Republic as the same entity...and rebelling would be like joining the Separatists they hate...

lol it's just so clear and consistent!

I wonder how Jesse felt about having his tattoo rendered obsolete overnight. I wonder if it made him look like a rebel sympathizer, and thus an outcast.

LOL no but I'm sure they have tattoo removal.

 

I figure you're being facetious, though Filoni did say that some clones got disillusioned with the Empire and abandoned it while others went on to train the enlisted Stormtroopers. And with the clones being indoctrinated to be loyal to the Republic, there are two different ways that could go to accommodate both groups of clones.

With loyalty going toward the small number of senators that are trying to rebuild the Republic that they were loyal to.

Or loyalty remaining with the Empire as the legitimate government that the Senate voted (or at least applauded/supported) to succeed the Republic.

 

Despite myself, I had to laugh at this.

 

When ROTS was released, there was lots of speculation about how Order 66 works.

 

When I saw ROTS, at first I thought it was merely the clones obeying an order without question as was said would happen in AOTC.

Then I thought, given it was "Order 66" and not "there has been a rebellion, kill the Jedi," coupled with the fact that Palpatine says to Cody "the time has come," I figured it was some kind of conspiracy that the clones were in on, reinforced by the inter-mission commentary of Battlefront II, which to me implied the clones all new the order was coming.

Never gave serious consideration to the idea that it was a Manchurian Candidate thing.

I mean, in the DC universe there is some apprehension among some of the characters regarding what would happen if Superman ever turned evil or used his powers to enforce his will. And you get people like Batman trying to find contingency plans on how to take him down should the need arise. Yeah, that sucks for Superman that people don't trust him, but at the end of the day I think the character is generally written from the point that he understands that people do worry about it.

With the Jedi, you have thousands of super powered beings, that have a history of dragging the Galaxy into turmoil every time there is a schism among their Order. The Jedi might not be wild about the idea of the clones being given an anti-Jedi contingency plan, but I would think that it might be something sympathized with and tolerated.

In my opinion what they should have done would be to leave it as such a contingency order, though perhaps one that the senate would have to vote on before carrying out - thus making the Jedi feel like it will never happen - only for Palpatine to be able to bypass the senate and issue the Order himself after he took direct control of the Jedi Order and with the senate continuing to grant Palpatine executive powers.

 

When I first heard about order 66, I thought that microchips planted in their brains made them follow through with their orders. It just didn't make sense to me at the time how the clones which were portrayed as the good guys and friends of the jedi could suddenly turn with the flick of a switch. I knew something was up and its looking like my suspicions are turning out to be true.

 

Yeah, and then Lucas came along right after and during a promotional interview and said that the order was just a contingency order that the clones loyally obeyed, the same answer he gave to all the LFL authors.

 

There's nothing to suggest that he actually told the 'LFL authors' anything as he has never been that involved in the EU and there's not many authors who have dealt with Order 66 directly.

 

That's entirely false, and I suspect you know that. Lucas has routinely been called upon to discuss matters that would be developed in the EU, with individual authors as well as project coordinators. He worked in tandem with Matthew Stover on the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and consulted on everything from aspects of the New Jedi Order and the recent 1313 video game, right down to, you guessed it, the nature of Order 66. Likewise false is the claim that not many authors have dealt with Order 66 in any in-depth narrative fashion, and again, I suspect you know that but are looking to minimize the issue down to binary case of "Is Traviss right or wrong?" as it suits your own oft-stated biases. Traviss, Luceno, Stover, Stradley, Harrison, Fry...numerous authors in numerous works―prose novels such as Republic Commando, Dark Lord, and Revenge of the Sith, comics such as Dark Times, and reference material such as the Guide to the Grand Army and The Essential Guide to Warfare―have all followed Lucas' lead that Order 66 was nothing more than a contingency order loyally carried out by the clones, and crafted narrative and canon around these ideas that came directly from the person who is supposed to know what he's talking about: Lucas.

 

I didn't say that he wasn't involved at all, but that he never was that [much] involved. And that's certainly true.

"Worked in tandem" seems to be an exaggeration. He was the line-editor of a novel which was based on a screenplay he had written himself.

Indeed, though Tosche Station set the record straight on one of the key decisions of the NJO that was attributed to GL.

Really? When?

My "oft-stated biases"? Cry me a river. I prefer authors such as Luceno and Zahn before some others (some of whom should never have been contracted IMHO).

Traviss and Luceno were the authors who directly came to mind when I wrote the post. I don't read comics so I'm not sure what Stradley's take was.

And who is a person known to change his mind... from time to time... And what do you have to show that any ideas "came directly" to the authors from GL as that was the point I questioned?

 

Look, I'm a huge EU supporter, and my post track record and history should show some of that... (though unlike many in Lit, I am not necessarily 'anti' TCW), but here's the key issue...

Lucas decision to make Order 66 a contingency only in the first place was a bit of an odd move, because he did not really take the time to convey so in the films. Early media heavily implied that the clones would obviously be brainwashed to some extent so as to make what we would later know as "Order 66" possible. George seemingly flew in the face of this, and a surprised group of talented EU writers went with it. In the long run, the fact that he's changed his mind somewhat isn't terribly surpring, nor is it going to be as nearly irreconcilable as people seem to be making it out to be.

The episodes air in germany in less than 2 hours. I'm going to watch them streaming and try to make some sense of it. What do I ultimately expect?

1. Clones will have some genetic programming. It will soften the implication that they were more loyal to their Republic than the Jedi, but not eliminate it entirely.
2. It will still be possible for clones to disobey the order. Period. I've said it before and I'll say it again, genes do not fully determine our destiny. People overcome their physical characteristics and predispositions in life all the time, but this does not mean that doing so is easy.
3. The programming will be an insurance policy as part of a larger Sith plan. One that essentially coexists with the writing of the non-brainwashed version of order 66, where genetic programming encourages the clones to secretly obey what they already are being told to do.
4. For the majority of clones, they will execute order 66 not merely because of their genes, but because news of a rebellion will make sense to them. They won't have total free, will, but the element of clones betraying the jedi out of loyalty to their country need not be removed from the canon either. Free thinking people are also brainwashed by propaganda in reality. There's nothing wrong with using both propaganda and genes to form the clone's history. Heck, I bet you there can canonically be clones who's genes failed to compel them that 'still' followed the order out of pure loyalty.

We'll have to make a series of compromises, but this has always been a tricky issue. Ultimately, let's just resolve it once and for all and keep the best elements of everything canon.