PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

But the Jedi don't beliee that emotions are wrong. They are aware that SOME emotions (Fear, Anger, Hate) are dangerous to them (to anyone who uses the force) because they lead to the Dark Side. So part of a Jedi's training is gaining control over ones emotions so when they do feel fear or hate they can control the emotions and not give into them or act on them (ie - not murdering children because a loved one is killed). They put rules in place to limit/remove some of the biggest sources of those emotions.

A Jedi teaching a padawan is going to KNOW why those emotions are dangerous and while he'll have a bond with padawan he'll keep some distance as well and make sure the padawan understands the danger those emotions carry. A childs parents aren't going to have the same awareness or goals. Just because the Jedi don't form family bonds doesn't mean they will wipe themselves out, in fact they've existed for a long time using those rules.

 

YOu can argue "in the real world emotions are bad or not" all you want, but we aren't talking about the real world. We're talking about the Star Wars universe, and in this universe there is this thing called the force. And the force has a light side and a dark side. The Dark Side is accessed by using emotions like Fear, Anger and Hate. We KNOW THIS, in the Star Wars universe, this is fact. The Jedi (an order of beings who use the force) do see those emotions as negative because of were they can/do lead a Jedi. The Jedi KNOW that those emotions are dangerous TO THEM because of the Dark Side of the force so they HAVE to be in control of (not supress) their emotions to avoid the Dark Side.

Who has ever stated that the Jedi believe emotions are bad?

 

Excellent post and I very much agree.

It seemed to me that the other Jedi simply could not understand Anakin as he had an experience that none of them ever had. A loving parent. If all the other Jedi had been taken at birth, they never knew their mother or their father and so to them, the loss of either is no big deal.
Also they never were attached to their parents so they have no idea how easy/hard it is to sever that bond. So they simply told Anakin to basically forget his mother and don't be attached to her any more. But they could not tell him how beyond a basic "don't have attachments."

As a teacher myself, I have to try and understand how my students understand something and then build on that. If I simply use my understanding then I run the risk of talking over their heads.

An other question that has been bothering me is this, a Jedi can not marry or have children. But what do the Jedi order to if a Jedi wants to leave and get married and have children? The rules against marriage and such are to reduce the risk of a Jedi turning.
But if the Jedi is allowed to leave and marry and have children, does that Jedi not run the risk of turning? Would the Jedi order allow this? If the risk of turning is so great then they should not.

Regards
Nordom

 

This is one of the issues I've run into over the years when it comes to topics meant to pick at the "problems" with the PT. After all this time, the topic either rehashes something that had been covered to death years ago, or they try to find something new and you can just tell they're reaching for the bottom of the barrel. Often times with the latter you want to reply "of all the things you could come up with to complain about, and you go with that?"

I don't know. It all just seems very tiresome after 13 years.

 

Nordom, I think the thought is an ex-Jedi who left to marry and have a family ceases to be a "Jedi." Since we're not really aware of any Jedi who have done so (outside of EU I suppose), it's speculation but...

An active Jedi could have a family member held hostage to ensure a certain outcome in negotiations or something similar, might be the thought.

A former Jedi is not in such a position to affect things and so be not a "target."

The "occupation" and impact on others resulting from his/her official capacity has changed.

Or so it's possible that that is the thought. (Whew, convoluted.)

 

Its absolutly a fact, we got a trilogy of movies telling the story of a Jedi who wasn't up to that standard and the issues it caused. Jedi HAVE to hold themselves to ahigher level, just like police officers in the real world. If you walk into someones house and see a husband punching his wife you may want to attack that man, a police officer probably has the same emotional responce but HAS to control it, he can't just go in and attack someone, for example. Anakin, like all Jedi, HAS to be in control of those negative emotions, he wasn't.

Anakin DID have choices - he CHOOSE to attack and murder the Tuskins. He CHOOSE to foster his feelings for Padme for 10 years then act on them when he met her. All choices he made. We've seen in TCW that Obi-wan had feels for the Mandalorian Dutchs, but unlike Anakin, Obi-wan acted like a Jedi. And its not that the Jedi Order "likes" Jedi like Obi-wan better, Jedi like Anakin are DANGEROUS. Have you even seen the movies? You do know what these emotions and actions lead too right?

You're making really weird and wrong assumptins about the Jedi. They are ENCOURAGED to love, but not get attached. YOu keep going off on these weird, extreme tangents that no one is arguing to try to make your point more relevent. A "real" teacher doesn't have students who can become evil and are dangerous if they feel fear or anger or hatred. Jedi can't be compared to "normal" people because they aren't.

 

Thereis no point in talking to you if your'e not even going to "play" by the rules of the universe we are talking about. It IS a fact that feat, anger, hate lead to the dark side - if you won't even admit that I'm done talking to you cause there is no point in conitnuing.

You're opinion that everyone but Anakin is to blame for his actions is wrong - plain and simple. Anakin is responsible for what he did, no one else. The Jedi do things a certain way because the danger the dark side prossess. Anakin was a special case, but that means he had to work a little bit harder then other Jedi, and he didn't. He didn't "kill" his attachments to his mother or Padme, he foostered them, made them deeper, which is the oppsite of what Jedi are susposed to do. He didn't think the rules applied to him. Anakins failure is his own, not the Jedi Orders.

 

Actually the opposite is true.

First, the Jedi are not some out of touch, ignorant group of monks who live in a tower and have no idea of anything outside of the force and ligthsabers. They know excatly the kind of bond and child and parent has, if they didn't they wouldn't see the reason to seperate the two. They also see the bond that Master's and Padawan's form, which very close to a child/parent bond. Anakin even says Obi-wan is like his father. Anakin says they are encouraged to love, its attachments they can't/don't form, and there are very good reasons for that.

Second, the council in TPM and Obi-wan in AotC seem very understanding of Anakin, his feelings and how he deals with them. Yoda and co. don't tell him he has to forget his mother altogether, but he has to be able to let go of people and not be attached so that hes scared of losing them (wonder if that lesson would have helped Anakin, had he bothered to listen). Obi-wan knows that Anakin wants to see Padme again and doesn't tell him to snap out of it or forget her, he reassures Anakin that she was happy to see him. Obi-wan doesn't tell Anakin he forget Padme and not care about her when she falls out of hte ship, just that Anakin has to do his duty not go running off after one person. Anakins teachers did that, he just ignored the lessons and did what he wanted. He KNEW he shouldn't be attached to Padme or Shmi, but did nothing to fix it, in fact he went out of his way to break the rules.

 

This is Yoda and Anakins talk from RotS

77 INT. CORUSCANT-JEDI TEMPLE-YODAS QUARTERS-DAY

YODA and ANAKIN sit in Yoda 's room, deep in thought.

YODA: Premonitions . . . premonitions . . . Hmmmm . . . these visions you have . . .

ANAKIN: They are of pain, suffering, death . . .

YODA: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?

ANAKIN: Someone . . .

YODA: . . . close to you?

ANAKIN: Yes.

YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

ANAKIN: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

ANAKIN: What must I do, Master Yoda?

YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.


Yoda doesn't scould Anakin for having some close to him, for caring for someone. He doesn't tell him to kill all his emotions or be a robot. He simply tells him that deaht (and therefore loss) is a natural part of life that Anakin has to accept and that being attached to people to that point of making a statement like "I won't let these visions come true" is dangerous for a Jedi. Its the same message Anakin gives Padme in AotC

ANAKIN
Or be with the people I love.

PADMÉ
Are you allowed to love? I
thought that was forbidden for a
Jedi.

ANAKIN
Attachment is forbidden.
Possession is forbidden.
Compassion, which I would define
as unconditional love, is central
to a Jedi's life, so you might say
we're encouraged to love.

Its attachment and the negative emotions that result in people when lose things they are attached too that the Jedi avoid, not emotion all together. Yoda and Obi-wan (I'll give you we don't see much of Anakins training from other Jedi) aren't hard on him or unsimpathetic to his situation. Anakin also KNOWS he shouldn't/can't form attachments to people and does anyway. He thinks the rules don't apply to him. When confronted with loss he isn't in control of his emotions, he lets them control him. When Qui-Gon gets killed do you think Obi-wan wasn't angery and upset at Maul? The person who was basically his father was just killed infront of him, but Obi-wan didn't go on a killing spree, cutting down every Zabrak he can find, he was in control. Anakin let his emotions get the better of him and turn him intoa murder in AotC, and then a Sith in RotS. And all of that is on Anakin, not on Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan, the Jedi order.....its on Anakin.

 

Sraight from the source regarding Jedi and emotions.

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the Dark Side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the Dark Side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through

 

That's the one thing, when talking about Anakin'd downfall, that people always seem to forget, ignore, gloss over, what have you. He had Palpatine in his ear for over 10 years slowly poisoning his mind. Luke didn't. And guess what? Luke still nearly crossed that line in RotJ. Knowing that, can it really be much of a surprise that Anakin did? Under much more difficult circumstances, no less.

 

Also consider that Qui-gon was taken from Anakin, who was a much better fit that Obi-Wan. I hate to diss Obi, but he was not ready for someone like Anakin, and his treatment of Anakin allowed for Palpatine to be "the nice guy" for anakin to fall back on and reveal his deepest secrets.

By the time Obi and Ani are on equal and strong terms with each other, its too late as Palpatine has a hold on anakin and is just waiting for the right moment to make things fall apart like in ROTS.

 

I do agree with that. His fall was the result of many factors, it's not a black-and-white thing.

 

Hey, Anakinfan, you know I don't oppose you to be contrary because we actually think fairly alike on this though we express it differently and from different angles, but contrast "not allowed" to love with:

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

"It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

Maybe we should reframe this discussion less in terms of do the Jedi shut out emotion or forbide love to Anakin's detriment to how was it and why was it that the Jedi and Anakin didn't get to a point of mutual understanding of "Jedi love"?

 

My favorite kid warning (on strollers) Remove kid before folding.

I kind of agree on the fear "of the dark side" but then there's healthy fear and unhealthy fear. Kind of like Obi-Wan's "if he was afraid" because he pushes fear aside to do what he must.

Although you're right we both love Wild Space, I don't always agree with it (in fact, sometimes I think she switched Obi-Wan and Anakin in little ways that only us fans would notice) and I don't consider it definitive, especially a lot of the Jedi stuff (Yoda). It indicts Yoda and his top-down stamping out of emotion as something far beyond anything I've seen in the movies even by implication, and doesn't mesh well with other sources I've read.

Man, I'd love to go over a few scenes with you, dissecting and discussing them, but - well, anyway.

But how isolated are they really? Somewhat, of course I'll agree, having no families but I would also argue that the Jedi are a bit of an extended family but certainly not a nuclear family. They interact with different cultures - as visitors, I would agree, but they do interact, not stay tucked into an ivory tower with their fingers in their ears (so others won't misunderstand, you've never implied that nor do I mean to imply you ever did).

On Anakin I totally agree - he thought he could have it all. If anyone tried to tell him about possessive love (IF) then he either didn't want to listen or listened to Palpatine instead. IMHO. And this "able to do anything" definitely was egged on by Palpatine's sweet nothings.

I've sometimes wondered if Anakin was "that connected" to the Force in his young/teen years of training that he should have been allowed to follow it without hindrance - but then I slap myself because even child prodigies need some direction and training I would believe.

 

But I think that while his reactions to some aspects of familial attachments were extreme, the familial attachments themselves--the concern for his mother, the falling in love with Padme--were simply a normal part of being alive.

On that we agree.

How he handled that - well, that's been the source of thousands of posts over the years.

As for Stealth and Gambit, I thought KM did a WONDERFUL job of contrasting the "greater good" vs. "the individual" viewpoint. There's merit in both positions - you tilt towards one and I the other, but we do agree on that.

I think Qui-Gon would have gone the Anakin argument - the scientist knew her family/friends WOULD die if she didn't cooperate, the Jedi and everyone else knew that if she wasn't stopped 100's, 1000s, millions or more would die - but they weren't in danger NOW.

Qui-Gon would say worry about your family; we'll worry about the others if and when we need to.

I don't think there is a black and white "correct" answer on that one, hence I found the whole argument compelling and fascinating to watch unfold. That same argument repeated on a smaller scale in the town - save the townspeople NOW while they were endangered vs. endangering them in order to survive long enough to get the the virus details out to save others.

Anytime an author has me rooting for one viewpoint then another I consider that a fairly balanced presentation of the most complex of issues.

Anyway, are we dragging this off-subject?

 

If you believe that the Jedi code is flawed, then how come only 2 Jedi fell to the Dark Side? How come nobody joined the Sith before Count Dooku did? The fact that nobody in the Jedi Order had succumbed to the Dark Side throughout the 1,000 years before the events of the Phantom Menace should tell you that the Jedi Code was indeed working perfectly. Neither Dooku nor Anakin would've become Sith Lords if Palpatine/Sidious weren't around to influence them nor would they have let their attachments get the better of them. Even when Luke Skywalker, the last jedi left in the galaxy, is in the same room with 2 Sith Lords, he didn't let either of them corrupt him into becoming one of them despite that they came so close to succeeding. Why? because he had both Obi-wan and Yoda's teachings to fall back on which come from the same Jedi Code they've been upholding their whole lives. Nobody has to be "good little drones" but they can't allow themselves to be mentally unstable or else, they'll become a threat to everyone and themselves like Anakin was.