President George W. Bush: Saint or Sinner?

We keep hearing how Bush has lied to the American people about WMD's as reason to go to war. If Bush really lied to the American people, then why didn't he just plant the evidence in Iraq when we first went in? If your going to lie and mislead people why not plant large stock piles of stuff to say here's your proof? It doesn't make any sense, unless he did believe there would be weapons found. Also, if the democrates were really interested in honest answers, why are they not looking at all of the intelligence we had, and statements made by this administration as well as past administrations and what other countries are saying? Instead, they try to pin it all on President Bush. This was not Bush's fault. Nor is it the fault of the past administration (unless you look at how Clinton gutted the CIA). I can't see how the democrates expect to look credible, as not playing politics with national security when they ignore these points. One other point. The report that David Kay made, the Democrates only used part of the report, the part that makes there case, and didn't mention the rest, which doesn't really help them. They do this so often. Either take it out of context, spin the story, or suppress the story. People wanting honest answers are being misled but not by the president.

If you really believe that PRESIDENT BUSH lied - - THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ AND HE TOOK US TO WAR SOLELY FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES, then read this.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U. S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that .. Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout h

 

Bubba, I'm pretty sure Germany declared war on America in WWII.

Yeah, they did, rashly and stupidly too. Not that we're expecting more out of Nazi Germany...

E_S

 

Upping, since some people in other threads might feel the need to use this.




b4k4^2

 

In another thread, Tiershon_Fett made a few claims about Bush. I'm going to deal with a few of them.

Did you know that Fort Knox is being looted? That a third of it's gold is unaccounted for? Where is the investigation there.

...

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes%3Bread=48986

It' spretty drawn out. There's some links.

I think this is not limited to Bush, I think all politiians are thieves. It's obvious they are there to serve themselves, not their constituents, but at least the average ones throw people some crumbs. Unlike the Bush Admin.

This one is rather ridiculous. Similar claims were made over 20 years ago. Or were those the fault of Bush as well?

Did you hear Bush wants us to mandatory service. Well, the 13th Amendment states that no man shall be compelled to endentured servitude.

Would you be referring to this proposal? That's been covered in the Draft thread already, but the short version is that the bills are completely supported and proposed by Democrats, have been lost in committee for 18 months, and have nothing to do with Bush. The filling of draft board positions is covered better by Snopes than I could hope to do here.

You are jumping at wild conspiracies and rumors. Just because someone says something negative about someone doesn't mean that it is true. Try some actual fact checking first.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Some Democrats are pushing it to make a point that the middle and lower classes should not be dying for the upper. It makes a lot of sense from that standpoint, and if this was a war worth fighting wouldn't it be proper to have everyone commit to it?

Having said that, I am in no way supporting a draft. I think it was put out to make people think about it, and I don't see it going anywhere else until at least after the election.

 

I would ask what exactly we mean by the upper class here? The useage seems to indicate anyone who doesn't have a family member in the military but surely we could atleats put an income amount to it?

And lets us imagine that this income percentage leaves us with an 'upper class' of 25 percent percent. Even assuming the same is carried over into the armed forces you're left with 75% lower and middle class, which really doesn't change things all that much does it?

What's your arguement? That more upper class people should be in the military? Exactly how would that keep lower and middle income's from dying for an upper class war as you want to describe it?

 

If you're "in no way" supporting a draft, why write, "if this was a war worth fighting wouldn't it be proper to have everyone commit to it?"

Simply attempting to score political points, regardless of whether that attempt coincides with what you actually believe?

 

I am here! To the joy of all!

 

President George W. Bush: Saint or Sinner?

Idiot.

 

TheForgottenJedi makes a good point.

 

"If George Bush was truly as evil and sinister as Michael Moore claims, Moore would not be walking this earth today. He'd be at the bottom of a river."

-- Michael Savage, The Savage Nation, earlier this week.

 

Hm - I have a very bad opinion of Mister Bush. It starts with the Kyoto-Protocol and cuttings of social-help, goes on in the way he help to create this Guantanamo-thing and the way he speak. This sound every time a little bit "Cowboy-like". Like the big, great man who can kick every ass he want. Ok, he CAN do this, but for me a politic in that black-and-white-way sounds not very clever. It could easy result in conflicts, sometimes wars.
And his wars were the thing, who make my not very god picture complete. This ?either you are with us or with them? ? stupid in my eyes. Is it our duty to follow him? Never. The way Iraq-war was created also. This UN must follow ME ? or will be irrelevant (more or less that are what he said). And his always - in my eyes stupid - speaches "We have won, blablabla, Iraq will be free, blablabla, Weapons of Mass Destruction...Enemies of the freedom? their last nasty assaults" and so on. Very often reality looks a litte bit different. How could I ever trust such a man? Ok, I must not, he is not my president?And the facts - like several bombings of civilians, shootings at checkpoints and demonstrations and at last the torture-gate were not good to change my mind.
But sure that is not a surprise, or?
I hope I can tell what I mean - I am not a American, but perhaps this question was to all?

 

Really don't have an answer for ya, Ardiff, although I agree with you about the cowboy talk and other things.

Anyway, just saw Fahrenheit over the weekend. IMO, it doesn't villify Bush as much as ideologically-blind people claim it does. The blame for 9/11 and various other odds and ends is spread fairly evenly; this movie definitely doesn't leave the Democrats (whom I *loathe*) or the news media (yuck) smelling great either. Then again, Bush & his buddies definitely come out as stupid and morally challenged* as I've figured them to be.
A good, more balanced version of basically the same story can be found in the book House Of Bush, House of Saud. I've read about half of it so far; while, like I said, it's not as unbiased as Mr. Moore's (quite impressive) movie; not only does it give a much deeper look at the Bush-Saud-Bin Laden relationship, it also shows some of the good things (like the removal of the Russians from Afghanistan) that came from this relationship, as well as the really bad parts.

I'll post more when I read the rest.

 

Funny title, considering all Saints were sinners.

I support Bush simply because I believe he was a lesser evil than Al Gore. I still support Bush considering John Kerry isn't any better.

 

Nightowl, if something like that did happen to Mr. Moore, where do you think is the first place that people would look?

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, maybe?

Peace,

V-03

 

I support Bush simply because I believe he was a lesser evil than Al Gore. I still support Bush considering John Kerry isn't any better.

(sigh) This mentality is far too common...it really never ceases to amaze me. People! Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil! That is unacceptable! Why waste your vote on someone you don't agree with, simply because they're "less evil" than the other guy? Research the issues. Know the facts. Vote according to what you believe instead of what the two major parties want you to believe.

 

Nightowl, if something like that did happen to Mr. Moore, where do you think is the first place that people would look?

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, maybe?

exactly. Moore has been too public a figure for too long to be bumped off now without raising suspicion. as it is, there are definitely a few eyebrow-raising "accidental deaths" and "suicides" related to people who crossed the Bush family.

To claim that Bush has completely failed in intelligence gathering ability shows a complete lack of understanding about the nature of the intelligence services.

i totally agree here. humint is definitely going to be limited in cases like this, simply because the cultural, language, race, and background gulfs are too vast and the organizations in question too closed and paranoid. that's not Bush's fault, for one thing, and for another, making a big stink about this just gives the administration excuses to broaden its surveillance powers and justify its tendency to operate in secret, which are not good things.

my problem with the Bush administration with regard to intelligence is its tendency to read the intelligence they do have selectively, emphasizing the parts that support their chosen course of action and ignoring the parts that don't. intelligence should shape policy, and never the other way around.

 

A friend of mine put Mr. Bush into an interesting perspective the other day and nailed a lot of his false image.

ok, can i just talk about gw bush the 'good ole boy'?
i mean, come on...
gw bush went to andover. and yale. he's from greenwich, connecticut.
he vacations in maine.
and don't get me wrong, andover, yale, greenwich, and maine are all lovely places.
but they're not exactly breeding grounds for 'good ole boys' who drive rusty pickup trucks and herd cattle(gw bush most likely grew up stealing golf carts and occasionally riding polo ponies, both of which are fine adolescent, preppy pursuits, but are not the sort of pursuits that people associate with good ole boys from deep in the heart of texas).
it just galls me when gw goes out and plays cowboy and some of the voters actually believe that he's a man of the people.
gw bush exists to serve his billionaire masters, and that's it.
so the next time you see gw pretending to be a good ole boy or a man of the people just remember that he grew up summering in good ole greenwich connecticut getting drunk on golf courses and bragging about his rich daddy.
if gw bush is a cowboy from texas then i'm a weight-lifter from siberia.
oh, p.s-did i forget to mention that gw bush bought his ranch in crawford, texas in 1999 under the advice of karl rove?
it's true.

Some good points I thought, what are other peoples opinion on the photo op friendly cowboy?

 

Special_Fred, unless we vote in a majority-required system, then a vote outside the two parties is the one that is wasted.

 

"I'm fascinated by rap and by hip-hop. I think there's a lot of poetry in it. There's a lot of anger, a lot of social energy in it. And I think you'd better listen to it pretty carefully, 'cause it's important." -- John Kerry, Senator and Connoisseur of Gangsta Rap

Crix, if you want to argue that Bush works to create a politically viable image, fine. But let's be honest: this is neither new to politics nor unique to Bush.

And I'd love to see how you look upon the previous occupant of the White House when it comes to creating a false persona.

 

Special_Fred

I would not want to throw away my vote on a 3rd party canidate.

 

Kimball_Kinnison said that this would be a better place to make this post so deferring to his better knowledge of this forum and its protocols, I wish to submit for your approval...

The night George W. Bush sent one of his goons to tell me to "GET THE **** OUT OF HERE!"

Some people told me a few weeks ago that they were interested in knowing more about this story after I had been alluding to it on some threads here, and on my blog. I'd felt led to write it all out and get it out there for public consumption, but two things kept holding me back...

First, that I did NOT want to do this out of anger or hatred or spite. Whatever happened that night, I refuse to now let anger be my guide. And I refuse to HATE someone, whether they're George W. Bush or the people that he apparently sent to do this. These people should be *pitied*, not loathed.

As a Christian, I am called to love even my enemies, and anyone else who would do me harm. That is how I have a triumph over the things of this world. That is what makes me different from those people I happened to encounter that night.

If I were to do this, it would have to stem from a heart that was convinced the motive was pure and sincere. I pray that my motive in doing so is earnestly this: that I've experienced firsthand the things that this current President and his followers are capable of doing and although I cannot hate them, I also cannot conscientiously remain silent while they delude the American people into being seen for something that they aren't. They've done enough damage to this country already and in my mind it would be a far graver sin to NOT do something now rather than let this evil go unanswered, if I've something to answer it with. I will not hate them... but I will not also cease to pray that Lord willing, that something will stop them now.

Second, I don't care if someone attacks me for doing this. Really, I don't. I've even posted to my blog that I can and will admit to writing some things online that I'm not particularly proud of. If someone wants to take me to task on that, fine. I'll own up to whatever it is that they call me on. But no one had DARE do anything to the people that I love as a result of this.

I care a lot for the people closest to me. I would do anything for them, even die for them, if that was required of me. Ever since I was a small child, I've hated the thought of anyone I loved getting hurt for no reason.

Point being: there are some things in my life that someone shouldn't lash out against and expect to walk away from with their spine still intact. My loved ones are the first of those. Karl Rove and his little band of dirty tricksters can do what they will with me... but I swear to God that if they or anyone else brings anyone I care for into the picture, I'll do everything in my power to ensure that they regret it. That's just an instinct of my character, and I can't do anything about it. Come to think of it, I really don't feel inclined at all to do anything about it anyway.

Those things said, and since today is the fourth anniversary of this happening... if I didn't do this now, then it'd be a moot thing to do it later. So, I did it.

You can read the entire story right now on my blog, The Knight Shift. If/when it moves from the top 'cuz I post other stuff you can find it linked from the archive here. Be warned, there's harsh language in this: I couldn't have written this and still be honest to what happened without doing so.

This has been weighing on my heart for going on four years now, and especially since two years ago when the other bit of information came my way. It happened well into my first year of being a staffer with TFN, when I was also working as a reporter in Asheville, NC. I've tried to make this entire story not only as factual, bot as objective as I could manage it. But it's also an honest look into my own mind

 

Chris Knight,

I read your piece earlier and I commend your integrity. Sounds like you did pretty much everything you could to fight those punks, and sometimes that's all you can do.

To be honest, this didn't really come as a major surprise to me. I've heard stories and rumors of exactly what you wrote about, and it's very valuable to have your confirmation. While positively horrible, it's good to know about it.

I've heard similar things going on in Florida both in the 2000 elections and now, mostly targeting those who are expected to vote democratically. I don't think I've ever heard of the United States ever getting this close to police states. I wish the mainstream media would give it more attention, and I suspect it will in the coming month. I hope...

[nazi]Papers, please.[/nazi]

[sallah]Papers? Of course. Run.
Papers. Got it here. Just finished reading it myself. Run.
"Egyptian Mail," morning edition. Run.[/sallah]

[brody]Did you say, uh...[/brody]

[sallah]RUN![/sallah]

 

Sounds about right, Chris. Nice blog.

 

Yeah, except for the fact that there is strong evidence that this entire incident was made up, and/or contained solely in the mind of the person's blog it is.

Normally, I don't think it is proper to make such allegations, but there are serious credibility issues here.