Public Moderator nominations/voting thread

Discussion in 'Communications' started by KnightWriter, Sep 22, 2002.

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Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    If a mod or ACer wants someone nominated, they could send a PM to nominate that person. However, their vote wouldn't be worth any more than a vote from any other user.

    Well, if we're using the "let the public do the nominating and the mods choose from that list" approach, filtering it through the AC, then doing it this way would really give a vast majority of the power for deciding the mods to the AC. Allow me to demonstrate: the regular users pick person's A, B, C and D to be the mod candidates, this goes the AC, the AC also decides that users E, F, and G would be good, and as users themselves, they are allowed to add these names to the list of candidates, so they do. They then must decide which names go onto the modsquad for final decision, so they choose users E, F and G, and so none of the regular users nominations go on to the modsquad. The same could also happen with the mods's nominations; they add some names to the list, then when they decide and vote, the person they vote on is a name they added to the list.

    Not saying this would happen, but as you can see, it could very easily happen.


    So, what are the bugs that need to be worked out? Do you have any ideas on how to work them out?

    With popular you have the problems of handling the popularity contests that it would generate and the endless drama that would go with it, the problem of socks, the problem of new users, then even past all this, you're only hoping that 51% of the users really made a decision based on wisedom and not based on "who's cool" or just voting in their random buddies.

    With the AC idea, we have the problem I outlined above.

    How to solve this? I don't know off the top of my head. The AC idea has more merits and less bugs, so it should be more carefully considered than the popular vote idea.


    I'm not pleading that any plan become a rule immediately. I think that everything needs to be discussed, until the bugs are worked out.

    We agree on that.
  2. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Let me know if this makes more sense...
    Regular members, AC members, and moderators all PM their nominations to the AC. There, the AC makes a list of candidates, and how many nominations they have. After the voting period is over, they remove all of the candidates who don't have X or more nominations. From this point on, no new names can be added to the list. Then, they remove the number of nominations that the remaining members had. At this time, the AC narrows the list down to 10 or so nominees. This list is sent to the Mod Squad, where they make the final decision on who the new mod is, from the names on the list sent from the AC.
  3. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Whatever happens -- with Oakessteve departing TPM, perhaps it's time for a bench-test of public votes on mods.

    Maybe we can hold off on getting a new mod until a system's worked out? I don't think TPM is the busiest or most drama-filled forum, so it might be a good testing ground...

    Just my thoughts.




    Rick McCallum loves you!
  4. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Yodajeff, OK, I follow you, but then really your idea is just the popular vote idea with a little bit of mod/AC input. So we are still faced with the newbie, sock, and popularity-contest problems.


    Whatever happens -- with Oakessteve departing TPM, perhaps it's time for a bench-test of public votes on mods. Maybe we can hold off on getting a new mod until a system's worked out? I don't think TPM is the busiest or most drama-filled forum, so it might be a good testing ground...

    Maybe, but that's a place that if left unsupervised for too long, a lot of old grudges can flare up and spin that forum out of control fast. Just ask Nathan and CB, they know of what I speak. To be honest, I wish Oakes would take his colors back until a new mod steps up, but Oakes is busy, and I understand. Real life takes priority.

  5. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Well, to make it onto the AC's initial list, you would need X or more votes. However, once you make it onto that list, it isn't a popularity contest anymore. From there, the number of nominations that someone has isn't taken into account. The AC would get rid of people who they don't think would do a good job, and people who they think just had a bunch of friends nominate them. The AC's final list should include 10 (or however many) good candidates, any of whom the AC thinks would do a great job. From there, the Mod Squad gets to have the final say.

    It isn't a popularity contest, aside from having to get X nominations to get considered. I think X should be a number large enough so that everyone doesn't make the list, but small enough so that good candidates who may not be super-popular have a chance.

    As for newbies, I would hope that people who don't have a good enough idea what is going on in the forums wouldn't vote. Having the nominations be non-public would help newbies and other uninformed people from voting for someone, just because everyone else was voting for that person. Socks would be a small problem, but perhaps limiting it to people who have 100 or more posts would help deter socks from posting.
  6. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    OMG!!!!!111!!1!!!! TPM haz no modd ROFL LOLOLOLOL! maek me teh mod Plz ill be fun!


    Anyway.

    What's the plan with TPM, then? Will a new mod just be picked the old-fashioned way?

    Needless to say it's not my place to order the mod squad around, but I really think this is a good opportunity (after all, how often do new moderating-needs come up in such an important forum?). If a different mod could be temporarily reassigned to TPM until we work out this system...

    I dunno.

    Here's an idea; would it be possible to implement a "dry run" in TPM, in which we go through the motions we have so far WITH THE UNDERSTANDING that the final decision made by the public can and will be thrown out by the Mod Squad in favor a choice made the old-fashioned way?
    Or is that too much effort for no good reason?

    Eh. Just my 2 credits.




    Rick McCallum loves you!
  7. Kadue Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2000
    star 5
    It seems like we would go with the current system for TPM, due to the fact that we do need one more pressingly, and also while of the right size, TPM might not be the best testing ground. We have said that if the decision comes for a new Lit mod, we are more than willing to use that as a test, but until there is even something remotely solid in terms of how it would be conducted, we have to keep using the current system.
  8. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    It isn't a popularity contest, aside from having to get X nominations to get considered.

    But until then it is a popularity contest, or are you suggesting that all voting happen privately? That would reduce the drama quite a bit if it was done privately.

    As for newbies, I would hope that people who don't have a good enough idea what is going on in the forums wouldn't vote.

    Well, hoping is nice, but that doesn't change realities. If we don't put policy in place regarding newbies, a good ammount of them will vote -- I'd guess (they did in our FF elections). But then, at the same time, is it fair to limit their votes?


    but perhaps limiting it to people who have 100 or more posts would help deter socks from posting.

    This is a good move and would reduce it some, but still a fair ammount of socks could get round it. Is there something else we could do to reduce the chances of this happening even further?

    OMG!!!!!111!!1!!!! TPM haz no modd ROFL LOLOLOLOL! maek me teh mod Plz ill be fun!

    OK, I move that Adam be given total control over the TPM Forum. I'm sure he will give up his emergancy powers as soon as the crisis has passed.

    So Gandolf, anymore news on this idea you've had? *waits patiently*
  9. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    "But until then it is a popularity contest, or are you suggesting that all voting happen privately?"

    Yes, voting would be privately, via a PM to the AC.

    "This is a good move and would reduce it some, but still a fair ammount of socks could get round it. Is there something else we could do to reduce the chances of this happening even further?"

    We could impose more limits, but I don't think we want to limit people too much. We could change the requirement to someone who has been a member X months, and has X posts, but I fear that it would become too limited, and would hurt rather than help. We don't want to give people the impression that since they are new here, or they haven't posted too often, that we don't care what they think.
  10. Connemara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Well, my entire optimistic view of the democratic process came crashing to the ground last night, so I may not be as cheery about the whole thing anymore, however, I still think this plan's worth a try.

    But one thing- if the AC is going to be privately narrowing down the list of nominees, I don't think AC members should be allowed to nominate. It woudln't be a big deal, since any one person is only on the AC for a couple months.

    Have members and mods send PMs to the AC, then they narrow down the list. However, I don't think it shoudl be narrowed down by how many people nominate a certain person cause A. This basically defeats the whole idea of nominations instead of voting, so we may as well go back to voting, and B. There are so many JCers, there prolly won't be many that get more than one nomination.
  11. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Well, my entire optimistic view of the democratic process came crashing to the ground last night

    How so?
  12. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    "However, I don't think it shoudl be narrowed down by how many people nominate a certain person"

    In the plan I explained, someone would have to receive at least a certain amount of votes to make the initial list. This will get rid of some people who just had a friend or two nominate them. However, this number would be low enough to make sure that no good candidates were cut off, simply for not being super-popular. This list could now have somewhere around 20-25 names on it (I have no idea how many it would have, since this has never been tried before). From there, the AC could trim the list down to somewhere around 10, based on who they think would do a good job. Since the MS has access to the AC, they could easily watch the selection process, and make sure that no names are kept or gotten rid of for the wrong reasons (friendship, etc.). Then, the AC sends this list of 10 (or however many) to the Mod Squad, where they could make a final decision.

    It's just an idea. I don't know whether or not it would work.
  13. Crimson-Larko Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 4
    My opinion on this:

    Voting has to be made public. Otherwise we wont know if the tally is being doctored or not. It shouldn't matter about knowing who voted for who. f voting is made private then I will urge everyone to boycot this process. I have little faith in this and if voting goes private then I will lose all of it.
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    It does matter to many people who voted for who, and the amount of drama that would ensue if there was public voting would be insane.

    You may have little to no faith, but there are many others that do.
  15. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    I still don't see how this is an improvement. The mods are still the ones actually selecting the new mod.


    If enough mods are determined, they can get the person they want nominated. How many mods are there? 50? Even if just half of them all agree on the person they want to get the job (which is probably how many it takes to get someone the job in the current system), they can all nominate that person and 25 nominations would most likely be enough to make the cutoffs. Then the list is sent to the mods to vote on and they all vote for that person. And since no one can see in Mod Squad but the mods, there is no check on this loophole.

    Now, I'm not saying the mods would actually do this, I'm saying they could. Isn't the point of this process to ensure that the reg members get a say? This process potentially could be manipulated and make the whole thing pointless.

  16. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Crimson-Larko, what if the nominations were sent to the AC, or a sock shared by the MS and AC, which could verify that the Mod Squad wasn't rigging the election?

    "Even if just half of them all agree on the person they want to get the job (which is probably how many it takes to get someone the job in the current system), they can all nominate that person and 25 nominations would most likely be enough to make the cutoffs. Then the list is sent to the mods to vote on and they all vote for that person. And since no one can see in Mod Squad but the mods, there is no check on this loophole."

    If the AC, when tallying up the votes, noticed that all the mods voted for one specific member, they would take that into consideration when deciding whether or not that member advances to the next round. I agree, it could happen. If one person recieved 25 nominations, 20 of which were from moderators, the AC would realize that something was going on, and would figure out a way to deal with the situation.
  17. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    A question:

    Are admins not members themselves? Do we not have the right to choose as well, either as admins or as members?
  18. Crimson-Larko Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 4
    I'm afraid a little trust is going to be necessary in whatever process is chosen.

    [face_laugh]

    Do you really take us for fools!? No, I'm sorry, the MS (and you) are far too hypocritical and two-faced to be trusted. I've seen it happen countless times before. There is no point in making voting private, which raises serious suspicion about the motivations behind making that choice. The fact is, it'd be a lot easier for you if voting WAS public. You choose to make it private that leads to us not knowing for sure if the tally is doctored.

    Say someone that the Administration doesn't like gets the most votes. It's very easy just to take off a few votes from the tally and let the other person win. And I have no doubt that this would occur.

    The only appeasement I could see is releasing a list of who voted for who AFTER the results have been published. Therefore if someone voted for someone different or they can't see their vote (or even if they DIDN'T vote), they can come forward and make that known.

    If you really wanted us to trust you have trust us. And until I can see that I'm calling for a boycott of these so-called 'Moderator nominations'


    YodaJeff - I have my doubts about that. Making voting public is the only way you can make me happy.
  19. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Feel free to call for a boycott.

    Say someone that the Administration doesn't like getsthe most votes. It's very easy just to take off a few votes from the tally and let the other person win. And I have no doubt that this would occur

    Then the person in the administration would simply have to deal with that person. Any kind of doctoring like that would not happen. If it did, and it became known, there would be severe consequences for the person responsible, and in the MS itself. I know I would not be part of a group that carried out such actions.
  20. wild_karrde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    I'll repeat something I said in the Lit forum thingie they made. Right now the mods are aprt of a "good old boys club". They want to select their own members, not let the general public do it. This is WRONG. It's our board, so we should select who the mods are.
  21. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Ah, complete generalizations. No individuality, just generalizations.

    Believe it or not, every member and admin is a unique person, with their own views and beliefs.

    I'm afraid that things aren't quite as cynical and negative as you would like to believe.

    I have my doubts about that. Making voting public is the only way you can make me happy

    This isn't about making you happy. This is about doing what's best for the JC as a whole, which may or may not be what you see as right.
  22. Crimson-Larko Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, boycott by voting for me!!! :)




    I'm serious...
  23. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    See, I wouldn't be happy with public nominations or voting. There would be too many hurt feelings that way, and it would increase the chances of people campaigning. With campaigning, it would get out of hand, and it would further divide the boards.

    "They want to select their own members, not let the general public do it."

    Funny. From what I've seen, some of the moderators are interested in getting the regular users involved in one way or another.
  24. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    The problem is that they wouldn't technically be doing anything wrong. Sneaky, yes. But not inherently wrong. It would be their right within the guidelines to do that.

    There aren't really any feasble rules to stop it. You can't limit how many they can nominate, because as KW pointed out, they are members too. You can't force them to vary their votes or nominations. The AC wouldn't have any grounds on which to throw out that candidate. They can't dismiss mods nominating votes just because they came from mods, nor can you forbid a mod to vote for the person they nominated. That would just be silly.
  25. Crimson-Larko Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 4
    I'm afraid that things aren't quite as cynical and negative as you would like to believe.

    Do we all have to be reminded of that infamous quote that you made in the MS KW? If you can be so passionate about censoring that from us then how can we trust the administration with this?
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