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"Qui-Gon was on to something."

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Vaderbait, Jul 9, 2002.

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  1. Vaderbait

    Vaderbait Jedi Knight star 6

    Sep 26, 2001
    I was alerted to this thread in the Episode III Spoilers section, and I really liked it. It's spoilerfree, so don't worry, it's just a shame we don't get the same quality speculation here as they do in the Spoiler forum.

    Anyways, with permission from the original poster suineme, here is the first post from that thread that really got some brain gears churning:
    A lot of people think that Qui Gonn Jinn was a fool for thinking that Anakin would bring balance to the force, but I think he not only turns out to be right about that, but a number of other things.

    Did you ever notice that the Force is described differently in the prequels? In the original trilogy, it seems like this mystic energy that binds and surrounds all living things. In the prequels, it's almost scientific, the way they describe it.

    Qui Gonn was aware of that but he also seemed to believe in "the living force", which is a belief that is closer to what we see Yoda and Obi-Wan talk about in episodes 4, 5, and 6. It's true that George Lucas probably hadn't thought up midi-chlorians back in the 70's, but I think he is making it seem technical in the prequels to make a point. The jedi are arrogant, and they rely more now on technology and their own institution than anything else.

    In episode 2, we see how Qui Gonn can call to Anakin, presumably from beyond the grave. According to the book, Yoda seems quite surprised by this, because he believed that once you die, you become one with the force. In other words, you can't maintain your identity.

    I think the reason why Qui Gonn did not disappear when he died is that he was just beginning to figure things out. In other words, he began to understand how to do this, but his life was cut short. Perhaps that is what he was trying to do when he meditated, before fighting darth maul. But he didnt retain his full identity after death, there are only "echoes". Which would also explain why we heard the voice sample from Episode 1, not Liam Neeson saying something completely new.

    So where does that leave us? I think that in episode 3 (which is why I am posting this here), Yoda, and perhaps Obi Wan, begin to understand the "living force" and perfect the technique of retaining your identity after death. Maybe this won't be addressed at all, but it should be, because it's an important question.

    By the time of Episode 4, both Yoda and Obi-Wan have embraced the idea of the "living force", and have finished where Qui Gonn Jinn left off. This is just my two cents, but I think it explains things pretty well.

    Personally, I think this finally explains why midichlorians were introduced in TPM at all, and now I see Lucas isn't just an idiot, or purposely trying to ruin the Force by making it seem like something scientific. The fact that the Jedi think it's scientific leads to their downfall, and the OT version of the Force is the real Force, yet only Qui-Gon could see that.
  2. Jabachile

    Jabachile Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 16, 2001
    Obi-Wan: He is, well...arrogant!

    Yoda: Yes, a flaw common among more and more Jedi.

    I agree! :) Very good post.
  3. Tho Yor

    Tho Yor Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2001
    I think that suineme is also on to something.

    GRIFFON Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 13, 2002
    I agree 100%!! I was just about to post a topic with this same theory! Perhaps the "living Force" is a middle ground between the Light and the Dark side...maybe neither are the true force...I'm probably wrong though.
  5. DarthTerrious

    DarthTerrious Jedi Master star 5

    May 16, 2001
    Well there was another thread on this around somewhere. Thats a good idea.
    Disappearing will certainly be explained (or some explanation).
    But the previous thread (i'll try and find it) had basically some talk of what was said here, and I've thought similarly since before AOTC came out.
  6. KaaShamau

    KaaShamau Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 15, 2000
    Sort of related:

    [link=]Ep3, Disappearing, and Reappearing Jedi[/link]
  7. MatRags

    MatRags Jedi Padawan star 4

    Feb 5, 2001
    A very interesting theory, and it may be true. But I kind of hope that GL has another suprise up his flannel sleeve to explain why the Obi-Wan and Yoda disappear.
  8. MasterJedi-Mackey

    MasterJedi-Mackey Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 7, 2002
    I hope that there is more to it also. I would agree with all of the theories of the Obi Wan/Qui Gon first communing from beyond the grave vocally and then visually as well later on through some "death meditation" had Darth Vader also followed similarly. Remember, when he was killed on the Death Star II, he didn't meditate at all. No kneeling, closing of eyes, chanting or burning of incense either. He just died, peacefully as the redeemed father who was rescued at long last by his vigilent son Luke. When Yoda died, he didn't chant (etc) either. He passed while talking to the very end, after cooking.

    Those two simple examples prove to be more the rule vs the exception. Clearly something "deeper" is at work. I do concede that Yoda and the Council have revised their method of thinking and that Qui Gon's thinking seems to play a part in it.
  9. obi_wan_kanathan

    obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 10, 2001
    Wow, that's a very interesting theory.
  10. OutlawYoda

    OutlawYoda Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 1, 2002
    ...there it is!! thats what i've been trying think about!! oh man! i do hope lucas at least has yoda say something about qui gon in ep 3.. man thats such an awesome theory!
  11. Vaderbait

    Vaderbait Jedi Knight star 6

    Sep 26, 2001
    After AOTC, Qui-Gon is suddenly my favorite character, I hope there's more of him in Episode III, be it ghost form, voice form, or mentions. He's definately turning into a key character in the saga, if not the most influential.
  12. son-of-skywalker13

    son-of-skywalker13 Jedi Master star 2

    May 27, 2002
    i like this ....lucas said that if you thought hard enough about it you could figure it out. we may have done that
  13. Vaderbait

    Vaderbait Jedi Knight star 6

    Sep 26, 2001
    Yes, and the theory we have now seems so blatantly obvious now. :D
  14. Sithman

    Sithman Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Jul 6, 1999
    Holy crap. [face_shocked] This is a good theory.
  15. tabbafett

    tabbafett Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 16, 2001
    I totally stand behind this theory.

    Impressive, most impressive.
  16. Jabachile

    Jabachile Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 16, 2001
    I think this, and along with the Palpatine theory I believe, have brought together the trilogies. Here it is:

    While the Jedi have become arrogant and corrupt with power, Palpatine has been a double agent.

    As Darth Sidious, he started a war on Naboo. This made the TF look like bullies, so Palpatine got a sympathy vote to be chancellor in the Senate. Power.

    Again, in AOTC, as DS, he's starting a war. This time, though, the Senator from Naboo has gotten a gang together to try and stop it from happening. He tries to have her assasinated.

    Though it doesn't work, he still starts the war. This frightens the Senate. They then give him emergency powers until the crisis has ended. Power.

    Palpatine, though, will not let this crisis ever end, as long as he is working the gas as Darth Sidious and the clutch as Palpatine (a little car reference ;) ).
  17. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Mar 18, 1999
    In the original trilogy, it seems like this mystic energy that binds and surrounds all living things. In the prequels, it's almost scientific, the way they describe it.

    Actually it was Qui-Gon who described it scientifically. In fact the "scientific evidence" was not enough for the Council to agree to train Anakin. The Council simply tested Anakin, they didn't base their decisions on that technology they used to test him. In fact the most important part of their tests, the one they based their decision on, was the one which did NOT depend on instrumentation or scientific tests of any kind. It was based on their observations of his behavior, his reaction to their questioning and the feelings they themselves got through the Force.

    I'd say what is more obvious is that this ability is somehow related to Anakin. It was Anakin's rage which cause this "tear" in the Force if you will. It just so happens that Yoda was meditating at just that moment and heard the attempt to reach Anakin by Qui-Gon, which was made possible at all because of Anakin's rage and the effect this had on the Force, Anakin is the Force's "son" in a sense after all. I don't think it's got to do with Living Force, it's just got to do with "the Force" and Anakin's relationship with it, the way he can amplify it. Qui-Gon was the only Jedi the Force could use for it's purposes as he was the only one Anakin had a close tie to who was dead.

    What Yoda discovers, through further study and meditation is how one can willingly retain their identity. I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't through his efforts that we end up seeing Qui-Gon in the next film.
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