Return of the Basher's Sanctuary

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Quixotic-Sith, Jul 10, 2003.

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  1. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    As the popular saying in writing circles goes: "Only God gets it right the first time." Having people to answer to, to question your work, that is a natural check and balance that every artist should have to go through. Because let's face it, the more removed we are from criticism, the less we challenge ourselves to do it well and get it right. That is the spot Lucas is in right now.

    Thanks for that quote, MeBeJedi!

    Hawk, good to hear from you! I hope you enjoyed Italy.
  2. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Guys, I had to add this comment that I made in a AOTC thread, here. I have been thinking about what Lucas showed us in AOTC with regard to Shmi's abuse for quite some time. Here are my thoughts:

    I was personally disgusted by what Lucas did to Shmi. It was utterly horrifying and I don't think that it was necessary to the story for us to see something as gruesome as that, especially in a film that was meant for children.

    Jar Jar was added to the saga because according to Lucas and McCallum, they wanted to appeal to small children. But, what the heck were they thinking when they put Shmi's abuse in a film made for kids? So, is seeing the result of someone's mother beaten and raped then finally murdered part of Lucas' vision of children's entertainment?!!

    Someone should tell Lucas that what he did in this regard was irresponsible, disgraceful, and disgusting.
  3. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    Well I never thought she was raped. The Tuskens aren't humans so I think it unlikely they'd rape her.
    And we never saw what happened to her, it's all left to our own imaginations.

    g
  4. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    TrueJedi, ANH showed the burnt corpses of Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen. The cuts and bruises I saw on Shmi's face were small fry compared to that.

    And Shmi was raped? Since when?




  5. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    JenX:

    TrueJedi, ANH showed the burnt corpses of Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen. The cuts and bruises I saw on Shmi's face were small fry compared to that.

    Seeing a couple of burnt corpses in a far off shot of two people we had no emotional ties to is nothing compared to seeing the close-up, slow and agonizing death of the mother of the main character of who we knew and to who we had an emotional tie. You seriously can't be saying that what you saw of what happened to Shmi wasn't far worse than what we saw of Uncle Owen and Beru.


    And Shmi was raped? Since when?

    There's no way of knowing what she went through but torture often involves acts of sexual violations. Again, the point is that the matter could have been handled in a way that was more "kid-friendly".

  6. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    I think Lucas uses the claim that Star Wars was always meant for 12-year old boys as a way to help distance himself from the criticisms thrown at him. It's a way of saying to the critics, "Hey, back off. These movies were not meant to be that great -- they're for 12-year old boys."

    I think Lucas is partially correct. I really do see that movie serial flair in the OTs and some parts of the PT, the kind of stuff where kids would plop themselves in front of a TV every week. The opening crawls, the swashbuckling, the cliffhangers...

    But these movies are not just for 12 year old boys and girls. They resonate more with the older crowd because they can recognize and appreciate the movie homages, the subtext, the parallels, the mythic structure, etc... What has made the OT last for so long and still be considered the "king", so to speak, is not just because it had great wiz-bang effects but because it had great characters with originality, appeal and depth, great dialogue for the most part, and just wonderful imagination and effort all around. This is not sugar-coated fluff entertainment like The Mummy Returns, which may have the serial style down but lacks a whole lot more. No problem if you loved that, but Star Wars is on on a whole different level.

    Here's an Irvin Kershner quote about how he wanted to make ESB something really special, not just a quick summer "popcorn movie" but something you could be proud of and still talk about 20 years later:

    />

    Star Wars should not aim lower, but should aim high and be able to entertain and move people all ages and abckgrounds. My cousin happens to be 12 too. He told me his favorite movie is the Fast and the Furious. 'Nuff said./>/>
  7. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Seeing a couple of burnt corpses in a far off shot of two people we had no emotional ties to is nothing compared to seeing the close-up, slow and agonizing death of the mother of the main character of who we knew and to who we had an emotional tie.

    What?

    1) I didn't have an emotional tie to Shmi. I'm seriously wondering whether Anakin had an emotional tie to here. Luke left his Aunt and Uncle at their house and rushed back the second he thought they were in danger. Anakin left his mother whilst she was a slave and came back ten years later because he couldn't sleep.

    2) I didn't "see" her die a slow agonising death. I saw yet another overly long "just enough time to cough out my love for youuuuhhh..." scene.

    You seriously can't be saying that what you saw of what happened to Shmi wasn't far worse than what we saw of Uncle Owen and Beru.

    I seriously can and I seriously am :)

    There's no way of knowing what she went through but torture often involves acts of sexual violations. Again, the point is that the matter could have been handled in a way that was more "kid-friendly".

    Yes, there is no way of knowing, so it comes down to personal preference, and I'm going to go with the "no rape" scenario. And, yes, ANH and AOTC could have been more kid friendly, but I'm not a kid, so I don't care.
  8. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Seeing a couple of burnt corpses in a far off shot of two people we had no emotional ties to is nothing compared to seeing the close-up, slow and agonizing death of the mother of the main character of who we knew and to who we had an emotional tie.

    No emotional ties? WHAT?!? Even as a kid I felt a major emotional pang at the moment Luke sees Owen and Beru's burning bodies. That is trauma. We feel an emotional connection to Owen and Beru because of direct "interaction" with their characters on screen but also because Luke is very attached to them and we feel his pain as well.

    While I personally feel a bit more emotion at Shmi's death, I have always felt strong emotion at the death of Owen and Beru.
  9. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Someone said that in the Visual Dictionary that the Tusken ritual does include rape of the human. I don't have a copy of the Visual Dictionary so I can't quote it.
  10. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Even as a kid I felt a major emotional pang at the moment Luke sees Owen and Beru's burning bodies.

    Face it, you're just one of those weak humans. :p
  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "I saw yet another overly long "just enough time to cough out my love for youuuuhhh..." scene."

    [face_laugh] This reminds me of the scene in Starship Troopers - "Johnny, at least I got to have youuu" with her mouth covered in blood. ;)
  12. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Lurking_Around - Batmans costume is black and Grey not Blue and that thing that Keaton got all Gimped up in looked awful. The suit in the second movie looked a whole lot better but he still looked non-intimidating and a midget. You have to have some size to be a good Batman, not HUGE but some height and dexterity to pull off the silky smooth moves and acrobatics. Needless to say the midget in the movies displayed zero fighting skills let alone acrobatic, he simply had more gadgets than James Bond, yeeeuch! As fror a young Robin, well young Dick Grayson was an exceptional young man which is why he was allowed to become the first Robin. he had natural acrobatic skills and a head for deductive reasoning. he wasn't included in every case the Bat went on if it wasn't suitable but after his intense training he was more than capable of holding his own which is why when he was old enough he went it alone and became the exceptional Nightwing. The Robin in the movie had no deuctive skills, he was a better gymnast out of his suit than in it and he was old enough to go it alone before he even got a costume, he had no period of growth or learning, it was pants! And as for age, Jake Lloyd? Noooo too young, Robin should have appeared around 15/16 years old but a fit 15/16 year old, not some slouching kid from the streets who grew up on fast food. No, he's have to look like some world-class Gymnast, his entire life was the circus and he learned from everyone in there so he'd have more to him than just acrobatic skills! Jim Gordon was never cluesless in the comics either; he and Batman shared an understanding and a confidential relationship. He called batman in only when he knew the Bat could get results where the law would have their hands tied in regulations. He was the age Bruce Waynes father would have been if he was alive and that's part of the reason the Bruce had a specia relationship with him. The Comissioner in the films had no such relationship with Batman and came of as a man who sat behind the desk too often with doughnuts rather than the capable leader the department looked up to in the comics.

    yeah the Death of Jason Todd wasn't a great comic, but that's DC for you, everytime an imprtant story comes up in the line they get some dodgy artist to draw it and make it pants. The Story wasn't mind-blowing but that's besides the point. The point is they needed to get rid of that bad Robin and do the scenario better later on. They did with Tim Drake and he's still going strong, but nobody beats the original Dick Grayson, the relationship between the old and new Robin in the comics works because Tim has made the Robin role fresh and his own! No more pixie boots or scalely underpants. Dicks Robin was for another time and he worked as a contrast to Batmans dark and moody character. Read Robin Year One, that's the best robin comic ever and as class as batman Year one which is legendary.

    Green_Destiny_Sword - I have to admit I loved the fact that Spiderman devoted a lot to setting the character up in the first film until the final scene where he is unleashed in full to the city as we're used to seeing him in the comics, None of the previous comic movies handld an origin of a chracter so well in so short a time as the Spiderman movie. Superman took over an hour to establish the man of steel and Batman's origin was a flashback devoid of any period of growth or intamacy inbetween. Spiderman for me was the best comic adaption out of any that came before, it really gets the character and situations from the comic portrayed as reality on the big screen despite its necessary amendments. X-men for me is the best comic interpretations on the big screen because they manage to do with the films somthing the comic lacks - a sense of realism. If I were an X-men fan i'd be miffed at the huge changes made to bring it to screen, but as a bystander I welcome them. The costumes and situations in the X-men comics coould never translate to screen without drastic changes, the original X line-up had no Wolverine and to make an X-men f
  13. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Someone said that in the Visual Dictionary that the Tusken ritual does include rape of the human. I don't have a copy of the Visual Dictionary so I can't quote it.

    Well I find it hard to believe that a SW Visual dictionary would reference rape, but if it does I would apply the "Rules of canon" laid out in the post I've linked to below.

    "RULES OF CANON"
  14. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Someone said that in the Visual Dictionary that the Tusken ritual does include rape of the human. I don't have a copy of the Visual Dictionary so I can't quote it.

    I'm actually surprised that an official Lucasfilm product would include that tidbit. Maybe I'm being naive, but I'm just surprised that a writer somewhere wrote that part in and it was approved.

    I always felt emotion during the Owen and Beru scene. Probably because they, at the time, seemed almost like adoptive parents of Luke. I didn't see them as distant relatives but pretty much the same as if Luke had a mother and a father all along. They had the same dinner conversations, Owen had the same strict rules like any father, and the last we see of Aunt Beru is when she is cooking that awful vegetable soup.

    But what has always shaken me was the reaction of shot of Luke as he looks upon his dead aunt and uncle. At that moment, we realize that this is not just a kiddie movie, and Luke is not just a whiny teen -- I'll never forget the look of resolve on his face as if he is thinking "I will get whoever did this." The music at that moment also really lifted that scene. And who could forget the next cutaway shot of the Death Star and the two Tie Fighters -- as if the image alone was an answer to what Luke was wondering.

    I felt a little of something during Shmi's death, but I will admit that I have seen that type of death scene in so many Westerns and war movies so I feel it is somewhat diminished in impact. I think the ANH one is more shocking for a first time viewer and actually more brilliantly conveyed. Luke standing in front of his home engulfed in smoke is just more powerful an image imo.
  15. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Just want to say I saw Return of the King for the thrid time again today and it hasn't even begun to wane onmy attention span. I love this film, I love all these films, they the greatest things ever put to the big screen. The Shelob scene still has me freaking out, the charge of the Rohirrim is still stunning (I love those guys) Theodern is the man, his rousing speech before the initial charge gets me every time. The Nazgul are even more terrifying than thier first appearance in FOTR, the Fellbeasts are devastating, The Mumakil decimating the army is something I'll take to my grave and Legolas simply is amazing. Once again the music is so good I had to buy the CD, Howard Shore is a master, the track called "The End of Everything" is the greatest piece of music put to any scene in these films and the music for Gandalfs glorious entrance into Minas Tirith as well as the variation played as the Becons are lit is stupendous stuff that I could sit through a million times. By the time the Battle on the pelennor fields is done, I am in so much Glee that my cheeks hurt. :D

    Tis truly the stuff dreams are made off unlike the PT which is the stuff they use to make nightmares!
  16. Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2001
    star 4
    I'm looking at the Visual Dictionary right now, and there's nothing in it that says anything about rape.
  17. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    That rumor was started by anakin-girl in the AOTC forum. She shall pay for her misreadings.

  18. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    CEEJAY said: have to admit I loved the fact that Spiderman devoted a lot to setting the character up in the first film until the final scene where he is unleashed in full to the city as we're used to seeing him in the comics, None of the previous comic movies handld an origin of a chracter so well in so short a time as the Spiderman movie

    Don't get me wrong, I thought the set up in SM was incredible! It had such great style and flavor. Even the whole praciticing the web-slining scene. But I felt the story struggled following that. It was still a good film though. I just thought there was potential to make a strong story overall.

    As far as Batman, again, I agree. The movies do no justice. The early cartoons were hot tho.
  19. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    This reminds me of the scene in Starship Troopers - "Johnny, at least I got to have youuu" with her mouth covered in blood.

    Were I Johnny Rico, two thoughts would have occurred to me.

    (1) Ick.

    and

    (2) "No offense, honey, but I was thinking about Denise Richards at the time."
  20. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    You know I've been here for about 9 months now and I realise that I don't know much about TF.N.

    For instance - does it have any connection with Lucasfilm? Do they ever get in touch or pass on their views etc.?
    Who owns TFN? Is it part of a larger media group or anything? When did it start?

    g
  21. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    You know I've been here for about 9 months now and I realise that I don't know much about TF.N.

    For instance - does it have any connection with Lucasfilm?

    No; they just have the ability to shut us down if they see fit.

    Do they ever get in touch or pass on their views etc.?

    Yes, but not about movie things. They have been in touch regarding legal issues in the past (e.g., in the era of the Phantom Edit and Phantom Re-Edit).

    Who owns TFN?

    Joshua Griffin owns the site. His eye is all-seeing, lidless, ensconced in flame...

    Is it part of a larger media group or anything?

    Nope.

    When did it start?

    1998, I believe (but it could be older).
  22. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Jim Gordon was never cluesless in the comics either; he and Batman shared an understanding and a confidential relationship

    Read the original Kane/Finger/Fox comics. Gordon was an idiot. Even in the early O'Neil era, Gordon was, at best, a clueless but hard working commissioner.

    Batmans costume is black and Grey not Blue

    Lots of times, it's blue. And he wears his underwear on the outside. Hence why I liked the costume in Burton's movie. It's armour, so it has a practical use, it's all black, and no underwear on the outside.

    As fror a young Robin, well young Dick Grayson was an exceptional young man which is why he was allowed to become the first Robin

    Exceptional? What's so exceptional about a young loud mouthed kid? Sure, he's acrobatic, but so are a lot of young boys out there. As I mentioned before, Kane was pressured by Finger and the publishers (with different reasons) to come up with Robin, and for me it didn't make sense that Batman would put a kid in harm's way.

    Needless to say the midget in the movies displayed zero fighting skills let alone acrobatic, he simply had more gadgets than James Bond, yeeeuch!

    I see nothing wrong with that, I'm happy the Batman movies aren't like the Matrix. You want that sort of stuff, watch 'Daredevil' :p

    Oh well, enough off-topic stuff for me. Back to the topic of bashing...

    Well, how I wish we could discuss spoilers here. The stuff I've been reading in the spoiler forum...well, let's just say in Episode 3, I'll hate most of the stuff concerning Yoda and Anakin. On the plus side, Kenobi gets to do some good stuff, and hoepfully a certain scene involving Palpatine and a Godfather-esque montage will be in the final product ;)

    I wonder how GL is going to fit it all in two hours... *shrug*
  23. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    JohnWilliams00 wrote: But what has always shaken me was the reaction of shot of Luke as he looks upon his dead aunt and uncle. At that moment, we realize that this is not just a kiddie movie, and Luke is not just a whiny teen -- I'll never forget the look of resolve on his face as if he is thinking "I will get whoever did this." The music at that moment also really lifted that scene. And who could forget the next cutaway shot of the Death Star and the two Tie Fighters -- as if the image alone was an answer to what Luke was wondering.

    Very good comment, especially the part I bolded. That shot of the Death Star and the TIE fighters with their distinctive sound illustrated the leviathan-like quality of the Empire, which would crush anything in its path--even the aunt and uncle of a young farmboy who were like parents to him. The shot highlights what Luke decided to fight against.


    CeeJay, I'm planning my third viewing of ROTK. My favorite scene in the entire trilogy is one you mentioned: the Rohirrim massed above the Pelennor Fields, Theoden's rousing speech, the blowing of their horns, and the charge into the waiting hosts.

    I don't quite go all the way with you, CeeJay. The 1977 SW film is still easily my favorite movie. But LOTR is clearly my second favorite movie. I never dreamed the LOTR film would be anywhere near this good. Heck, I never even dreamed that the PT would be this good, back in those good old days when the PT was just a desire rather than a disaster.
  24. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Exceptional? What's so exceptional about a young loud mouthed kid? Sure, he's acrobatic, but so are a lot of young boys out there. As I mentioned before, Kane was pressured by Finger and the publishers (with different reasons) to come up with Robin, and for me it didn't make sense that Batman would put a kid in harm's way.


    I like how the premise was handled in Batman the Animated series during Robin's origin. When they show in flashback when ten year old Dick Grayson is taken to the Batcave after a failed attempt to capture Tony Zucco, the man who murdered Dick's parents, Batman asks about the pain, prompting Dick to ask "Who are you? What do you want?" Batman pulls the mask off, and Bruce tells him, "I want to know just how badly you want Tony Zucco." That right there makes up any doubt I had of Robin being "tagged along," some legitimacy was made to the addition of the character, as well as emotional weight.
  25. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Lurking_Around - Oh man you have to let the original batman incanation by Kane and Finger go! that universe no longer exist after Crisis on Infinate Earths. Batman like everything else in the DC universe had it's Zero Hour and restart. Batmans history now begins with Year one and moves on from there, the Batman with a gun doesn't happen, the Blue in the comics was a popular way of doing black without it looking to dark, now days they don't even bother because they have better computer based colouring techniques and Batmans Costume is always Black and Grey. And Like I said before, read Robin Year One and you'll change your idea of Dick Graysons Robin, just let that original stuff go, I mean if that still had standing, then Batman would be 60 years old or something wouldn't he?

    Loco_for_lucas - I love that episode of Batman TAS, if I remember well it was a two parter and had that awesome scene with an unstopable Dick Grayson on the motorbike, he did a 360 under a truck for crying out loud and that awesome jup across the opening bridge. Dick is the man!

    Binary_Sunset - Oh we've been through this before my old friend! I love SW:ANH but I have to say for me LOTR is the new Hero in my life as far as film series go, SW owned my youth and my growing years fromm the first time I saw it at ten years old to my early thirties. LOTR now owns my late thirties onwards, its just to well orchestrated, too well made and too much entertainment as far as a trilogy goes for me to palce anything above it. These movies are pure gold and what I love about them the most is that every year they come out with a bang at X-Mas before delivering an even better version for the fans later that same year. My appreciation for ROTK has more to come by November when the hour-plus of footage cut from the film is restored. Then I go loopy as hell and cry my eyes out for there will truly be no more LOTR let to enjoy at X-mas (it's going to suck this year) but I will have on my DVD shelf the stuff of dreams, a ste of movies I can honestly just loose myself in in pure escapism. it's like wrapping yourself up in a warm duvet of love! There is nothing to hate in these films, it's all good! :)

    I never realized how many people are planning LOTR wekends when they watch everything. I have a feeling next X-mas that it will be the popular event worldwide! :D
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