Lit Rule of the Strongest

Lets argue about the which was the strongest of the Sith organizations.

Order of the Sith Lords-The Rule Of Two

• Started by Darth Bane in response to the Brotherhood of Darkness' "weaknesses"
• "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody the power, the other to crave it." there are only two Sith Lords at any given time.
• easy to wipe out with only two members

The One Sith

• Started by Darth Krayt in the wake of the destruction of the Jedi Order after order 66
• Dedicated to the Ideal of the Sith instead of the individuals personnel growth
• by putting the Ideal over the individual there was little backstabbing but resulting in little ambition to become stronger

Brotherhood of Darkness

• Founded by former Jedi Master-turned Dark Lord of the Sith Skere Kaan, the Brotherhood took the place of the fragmented Sith Empire after slaughtering many of its most powerful lords
• "Aren't we all equal in the Brotherhood of Darkness?" Skere Kaan maintained a council of sixteen Dark Lords of the Sith that ruled over the Brotherhood of Darkness with him. All were supposedly equal in position.
• "Someone here once told me that the Darth title was no longer used because it promoted rivalry among the Sith. It gave the Jedi an easy target. It was easier just to abandon the custom. To have all the Sith Masters use the same title of Dark Lord. But I know the truth, Qordis. I know why none of you claim that name for yourself. Fear. You're cowards. None of the Brotherhood is worthy of the Darth title. Least of all you." Abandoned the title of Darth out of Fear, weakening the Sith much like the One Sith making the individual lack ambition once title of Dark Lord was reached.

Sith Empire (any pre Brotherhood sith fall under this demographic)

• In the aftermath of the Great Hyperspace War of 5000 BBY, the remnants of the original Sith Empire established a new Sith Empire in the galaxy's Unknown Regions.
• "Three centuries after the death of Darth Malak and the end of the Jedi Civil War, the True Sith Empire returned from deep space - attacking the Republic. They began a war unlike any other in the galaxy's history. The Great Galactic War dragged on for decades. Thousands of Jedi and Sith were slain. Countless star systems were ravaged." The Sith Empire was run as a magocratic totalitarian government. At the head of the Empire sat the Sith Emperor. TheDark Council served as an advisory board and ensured the smooth running of the Empire. The Dark Council served as a combined executive, legislative, and judicial branch of the government.
• Countless backstabbing weakened the Empire as a whole.

Make your words count....

 

There are like 52 completely different Sith Empires though.

 

Yeah there was the Sith Empire that existed during and prior to the Golden Age of the Sith, which was the time of Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow. Going back to its beginnings you'd also have to include XoXaan and Karness Muur as well, along with Ajunta Pall. There was then Exar Kun and Uliq Qel-Droma's Sith Empire during the Great Sith War, Revan and Malak's Sith Empire during the Jedi Civil War (Man I need to play Kotor again sometime soon; it's been way too long.) The Sith Emperor's Sith Empire during the Great Galactic War, the Cold War, and the Galactic War which was proceeded by the Sith Triumvirate's Sith Empire during the Dark Wars. The Sith Emperor's Empire also suffered a small fracture during its time, where Darth Malgus broke off to form his own new Empire. There's then the numerous different Empires, Regions, and Kingdoms that make up the Chagras Hegemony, stemming from Lord Chagras and his mother Villia Calimondra; all of which existed during the New Sith Wars. Another, separate Sith Empire also existed during this time, which was started by the instigator of the Wars, Darth Ruin, formlery known as the Jedi Master Phanius. The Brotherhood of Darkness in fact is just the end result of these separate Empires warring and splitting over time, and then the ashes being picked up by Kaan. There's then Palpatine's Galactic Empire, along with Darth Krayt's Galactic Empire decades later. You may or may not also want to consider Palpatine's Dark Empire as one, along with the Army of the Confederacy of Independent Systems as one, as both were led by Sith.

And that's off the top of my head, there are also many other groups, such as Freedon Naad's bloodline on Onderon, or perhaps even the Krath that had their own kingdoms and principalities.

 

Yes but the Sith Empires of old had similar views, nothing to drastic or weren't really expanded upon. besides I not going to type 52 additional sith empires it was all for convenience sake( I would suffer from favoritism if I included Exar Kun's empire specifically)

DarthJenari _Catherine_

 

You had me at "let's argue".

 

usually force.net does not allow threads on greatest ever ..... But well see. Because of all the artifacts that expand power i am going ancient sith empire with Marka Ragnos and all those guys

 

this isn't about greatest I said strongest

 

I've no issue in principle with having a place to discuss the relative merits, strengths and weaknesses of the incarnations of the Sith Order... but keep in mind that we don't generally allow "power ranking" and "versus" threads in Lit.

If that's all this thread is shooting for it'll be locked in short order.

 

I should have worded it better but I which has the most standing as an organization which was the was the most practical which would you support as an individual.

 

one that doesnt involve killing each other

 

Bane's Order and Krayt's Order were the only ones that were truly successful in taking over the galaxy. I would have to go with the One Sith, since Krayt was able to harness the power of the Sith in great numbers, but instead of fearing betrayal he was able to make his followers fanatically devoted.

Which reminds that another weakness of the new canon is that Maul tatts aren't Sith tatts but "Dathomiri", so why do the One Sith have all the same tattoo design?? Ohhh I loved it when the EU was so nice and simple!

 

1. The One Sith are Maul groupies. At the end of the day, why Maul had the tattoos is irrelevant to the One Sith.
2. The One Sith aren't canon anymore.

 

Nothing we Love is cannon anymore....

 

CANNON GO BOOM!

 

I liked the One Sith before they fell apart and broke into small cells here and there. That group and Rule of Two Sith are my favorites even though they follow different doctrines, but they managed to take control of the galaxy.

 

Yes, and Vitaite's made some headway as well, managing to split the galaxy in two between Republic and Sith territory, so i'll give him props for that. For me, the Order of the Sith Lords is the most efficient group of them all, with the founder, Darth Bane, actually having spent a good deal of time thinking on the goals of the Sith, and the problems they'd continually been confronted with. He then created a system that would lessen the Sith's power on one front, that of large armies (Which had proven ineffective time and again) and gave them advantages on another front, with their enemy no longer knowing of their existence and becoming lax over time.

 

I'm not quite sure how to quantify 'strength'. What makes an organization strong? Size of military? Number of members? Size of territory? Wealth? Dynasty? I don't have enough information on all the Sith organizations to completely answer this question. Moving on.

The First Galactic Empire created by Darth Sidious was the largest galactic empire in the history of the galaxy far, far away. The Republic and the Confederacy of Independent Systems, the combatants of the Clone Wars, were both controlled by the Sith. At the war's conclusion the Empire was created by the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith. It follows that his Empire would include all the territories of both parties participating in the war, regardless of who won. Aside from a handful of neutral systems (which I imagine were easily invaded and taken over) and whatever is in the Unknown Regions, Palpatine's Empire controlled all of the known galaxy. And he did it with a good bit of public support. Palpatine became Emperor through the use of Law, not military coupe. He wasn't a conqueror of society, he was it's defender. The public, imbued with all the propaganda, welcomed the newly reformed empire with “thunderous applause.” Such was the standing of this Empire that it persisted through open rebellion, splintering, and defeat, 130 years after the death of its founder, and maybe even longer...(it should be noted that the empire of the One Sith is the same one that Palpatine founded, through continuity of government. It may have not always had an emperor, but military chain of command and the Moff Council kept the Empire alive.) But those are just legends.

Palpatine's Sith Empire was also the most practical of all the Sith Organizations. It is important to note that I view the Order of the Sith Lords and Palpatine's Sith as two separate entities. Regardless of cannon squabbles, it is pretty well established that Palpy did not keep to the Rule of Two, especially after becoming emperor. That is to say: Palpatine was doing this own thing. I believe his empire was the first to use non-Sith regional governors. The original Sith Empire, in its golden age, was ruled by the Dark Lord and a council of Sith Lords in a sort of feudal system of government. After Vitiate came to power and became emperor, the council was reorganized but the feudal system remained largely intact. Palpatine ruled by Law (how very English of him). He maintained the Senate until all power had lawfully been transferred to him and his governors. He used and molded the Old Republic system which more or less had worked for the last [xx] thousand years, to his empire, keeping what worked efficiently and cutting out the rest. It worked. The galaxy was productive. They were able to produce one of the largest fleets in galactic history. And in a very short amount of time. The Empire had incredible military might. Even after the Declaration of Open Rebellion, the Empire continued to gain territory. If not for the fact that they had Jedi in their ranks, the Rebellion would have never stood a chance. It was twenty years before the Rebellion achieved their first major military victory. And even after that they were forced to resort to guerrilla tactics to make a small dent in Imperial forces. Had Luke Skywalker not joined the Rebellion, then there would be no rebellion. The first Death Star would have ended the conflict at the Battle of Yavin. One can also argue that again, if not for Luke Skywalker being on board the Second Death Star at the Battle of Endor, the rebellion would have been crushed. But the Emperor was killed, his empire beaten, the fleet scattered, but not totally defeated. The Empire would endure. These defeats where not because of a fault in Palpatine's structure of power in his Empire, but more that Vader wasn't good at his job. In the end, all Sith fall to that weakness, the inability to see that ideal is greater than individual.

Personally, I don't think that I support any Sith organization. I asked myself, 'which empire would be easiest to live in?” And promptly asserted to myself that I would live under and recognize NO empire; they were all a bunch of tyrants that used fear to keep the public in line. I was raised on revolutionary ideals like freedom and democracy, consent of the governed, I do not support tyrants. So that throws out any successful Sith movement. Admittedly, Exar Kun is my favorite Dark Lord 9its more of a nostalgia thing), but he didn't really have any clear, defined goal for his war. He kinda just made war. I love Revan too, but I don't really consider him a Sith or a Jedi. He just is Revan. And the New Sith Wars (that thousand years starting with Darth Ruin and ending with Ruusan) has the most pathetic Sith Order of Galactic History. So I guess I don't support any Sith organization. But the Old Sith Empire from their Golden Age was cool. They're like, ancient Egyptians. That's cool.

 

How didn't palpatine keep the tenets of the Rule of Two?

Dirtyhippie4

 

i know your not asking me, but he did and yet he did not. I guess all the "hands" are not canon anymore right? But he still had Maul, Dooku, Grevious is more Dooku's apprentice, and all along planned for Vader.

 

A lot of palpatine's hands were ex jedi teaching each other or taught by Vader while the Dark Acolytes during the clone wars were all taught by Dooku or again teachings among themselves....Palpatine never had more then one apprentice holding the title of Darth whether or not they were pawns doesn't matter.

 

Most of my evidence comes from the Legends Universe. He knowingly allowed his apprentices to train their own apprentices (Dooku with Asajj Ventress, Tol Skorr, Vos and Vader with Starkiller, Lumiya). Palpatine started training Maul while he was apprenticed to Plagueis. Darth Plagueis himself thought the Rule of Two to be useless now that the grand plan was in motion. After Palpatine rose to power, he created the Emperor's Hand, the Inquisitors, found and incorporated the Prophets of the Dark Side. I wouldn't call any of them Sith Lords, but what would you call a group of dark-siders being trained by and working for the Dark Lord of the Sith? I would call them Sith. My conclusion may be a little off base, but I'm not really sure what makes a dark-sider a Sith or not. It seems like just about anyone can have that title now-a-days.

 

Read Path of Destruction again where it was very clearly said that Sith Lords in Bane's Order could bring in Dark Jedi at various points and use them as tools, but not take them on as real Sith. And the fact that none of those people were real Sith is noted at various times in the Legendverse. None of the people or groups you mentioned are Sith, they're only Dark Jedi. Thus none of them are breaking the Rule of Two.

 

The training of an apprentice while the Master is still alive is very common happened to Bane, As for Ventress and the others they are just Acolytes used as generals and assassins I view them as CIS more then Sith and this would help keep a pool of apprentices if Dooku fell before planned. As for the darksiders during Palpatine's reign as Emperor...this is an excerpt from the wiki on hands Prior to his ascent to Galactic Emperor, Palpatine used a number of assassins, spies, and operatives to achieve his objectives as the Sith Lord Darth Sidious. It was his use of Darth Maul, trained specifically to kill Jedi, who proved effective at handling other tasks, that convinced Palpatine of the usefulness of extremely loyal, effective, and secretive agents. Thus he began developing the Emperor's Hands to create a group that were operatives, not apprentices. So in short they were Force sensitive spies while the Inquisitors were just that Inquisitor trained to flush out Jedi and rebel activity through interrogation and torture. (Starkiller was Vader's apprentice, the pair were meant to replace Palpatine)

To answer you last question well have to break down and define "Sith" in context it means two things: a race and a organization, but the sith race had long be extinct by Palpatine's time so that is currently meaningless and we all know the Goals of the Sith as an order, So really the only defining factor for sith is whether you claim it in such as Exar Kun, Revan, Krayt and Lumiya did, if there is another to claims to it you either join or destroy one another and IF you survive the latter you are Sith.

 

Alright, I'll concede the point. I was merely trying to separate Palpatine's Empire from the Order of the Sith Lords, but since that has little bearing on my original argument, it doesn't matter.

But even though Darth Millenial left the Sith Order to form the Prophets of the Dark Side, would not the fact that he was trained in the order and knew Sith teachings make his new dark side order a Sith sect?

As I said, it really doesn't matter; Palpatine's Empire being the most practical way to rule the galaxy is what really matters to me.