Sexism policy

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Ender Sai, Nov 3, 2014.

  1. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    Ok I'm bumping this thread to give some of my points, after recent problems.

    I do agree both on the internet and real life, sexism and harassment is a serious issue. I study criminology and I do understand why many people are very sensitive about this. I respect every women I've met in real life, and I always like strong female characters, this is one of the reasons I've become a fan of Star Wars.

    But that should not be a reason to demonize every normal reaction between men and women, it's not going to help at all. Saying someone is beautiful/handsome is never something wrong unless the person himself/herself don't want it and made it clear. If someone said I'm handsome and got accused for that, I would think it's utterly stupid.

    This is a Star Wars community so I will use Star Wars examples. There are quite a few Star Wars heroes doing the same thing throughout the saga.

    This is his first reaction when he saw Leia's hologram. He didn't come up with "She must be a brave rebel fighter!", no.

    You can say this is bad writing, but Anakin surely didn't mean anything sinister, I believe even the PT haters don't think so. It's not Padme had accused him for sexism.

    Lando as well.

    Shall we say that Star Wars is objectifying women? If so, this community should split itself from the franchise? Obviously not, Star Wars is known for creating strong and independent female roles, while some movies didn't have screen time to show it well enough.

    These lines are just ordinary people's reaction when they saw someone like Leia/Padme. It doesn't mean they are reducing the person only by their looks, but simply admiring their beauty. There is nothing wrong with it other than the Anakin line's bad writing.

    Whether you should post such message in a specific thread is questionable, I wasn't totally serious, just wanted to make some fun after enjoying Le Pen's defeat. But criticizing it for being sexism and objectifying women is wayyy over the top. Like I said, I support harsh punishment on real harassment and sexism, but I don't think the management should go another opposite extreme way.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 7, 2017
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  2. Dandelo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 7
    After reading your post in question, I would agree the reaction you got was a little over the top. I admit.
  3. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    The Comms forum isn't a court of appeals or a public forum to get consensus on a specific moderator action.

    I would also point out that the Star Wars films also involve the murder of children and genocide, so let's try not using those as examples of appropriate behavior on an internet message board.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, May 7, 2017
  4. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    It's not appeal, I asked the mod by private message for permission before I post here. Before that I tried to discuss this with the mod through private conversation but he/she refused to discuss.

    It's not a big deal to stop the discussion in that thread at all. But being accused of sexism/objectifying women is not something people will nicely accept, not on the internet and not in real life. If admiring a public figure(a politician, more accurately)'s looks is sexism or objectifying women, then I think it's worthy to bring it up. I searched many articles about her and many of the media did write her as young/pretty, she didn't seem to have a problem with it.

    In SW, those who had committed genocide were villains and their actions were used to define their villain status. We do see every good character oppose children killing and genocide, it made damn clear that children killing and genocide was morally wrong in SW universe.

    What I've given out was from the heroes, and it was well received by Leia/Padme. We don't see any good character oppose to Luke or Anakin or Lando for saying the line. Did it hurt Leia/Padme's character? Or was SW purely sexist objectifying women so they let the heroes say such lines and every good person react perfectly fine rather than "How dare you say that you sexist? How dare you objectify me?" Even SW haters and PT haters don't say Luke/Anakin or George Lucas was a sexist for doing that. I believe you don't think they are as well.

    Like I've said, sexism and harassment is a big deal, but it shouldn't be overextended to a level which you can't even admire someone's looks. It doesn't mean you reduce them to just that, it's simply saying they are good.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 7, 2017
  5. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    But being accused of sexism/objectifying women is not something people will nicely accept, not on the internet and not in real life. If admiring a public figure(a politician, more accurately)'s looks is sexism or objectifying women, then I think it's worthy to bring it up. I searched many articles about her and many of the media did write her as young/pretty, she didn't seem to have a problem with it.

    Someone pointing out an instance of objectification isn't inherently accusatory. Also, it shouldn't be the responsibility of someone on the receiving end of an objectifying comment to speak negatively about it. People may not "nicely accept" it, but that's not particularly relevant with regard to pointing it out.

    Also, it generally harms whatever you are attempting to argue if you bring up Star Wars-related analogies, comparisons, storylines, etc. It's tacky at best, and most people I know here don't care for it.
    Last edited by KnightWriter, May 7, 2017
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  6. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    Of course it is, especially when a mod uses this forum's standards out to define the action and prevent the user from responding it. Then of course I come to the communication forum to discuss whether this standards is good or not.

    People don't care? Then why most of the forums are keep arguing for character's action and praising the heroes? This is a Star Wars community, if the core ideology of Star Wars wasn't even accepted by this forum's moral standards, then it would be a giant irony and should be split off from the franchise.

    Also may I ask you, is Anakin/Luke/Lando a sexist or do they objectify women by saying "you are pretty"? Should admiring someone's looks being defined as sexism and objectifying women? I believe if I open a thread about Luke being a sexist(before this incident), it would not end nicely at all. I can give out many, many great literature which the narrator or the hero had admired female characters' looks, I used Luke because this is a SW forum so it would be easier to understand.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 7, 2017
  7. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    I'll say it again-- Star Wars comparisons and analogies won't get you far here. I know it plays well (as it should, I imagine) in the film discussions and elsewhere, but in Communications and the JCC, they exist to be criticized (at best), mocked, and ignored. Feel free to continue to use them, of course. I just wouldn't expect to get much from them.

    Of course it is, especially when a mod uses this forum's standards out to define the action and prevent the user from responding it. Then of course I come to the communication forum to discuss whether this standards is good or not.


    Do you understand the problem of expecting the recipient to do the work?
  8. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    JCC and Communication existed because Star Wars was popular enough to attract members, then some of these fans could create a off-topic community to discuss about everything else, it was popular because it grew from the Star Wars fanbase. Without Star Wars, this entire community would not have existed at all. If even Star Wars' core ideology was against the community's standards, it's a mockery to this entire community, not just the Star Wars section.


    What does JCC mean? Jedi Council Community, which means: Star Wars fans general forum to discuss off-topic stuff.

    Trying to rip off any section from Star Wars isn't possible. Even most of the current JCC members are still Star Wars fans, which means they came here because of Star Wars. Or are you saying that Star Wars section and JCC have a big difference gap on moral standards?

    Even if we put it aside, now let me ask you again, Does admiring a public figure's looks mean you are objectifying him/her? Or, if someone said you are handsome/pretty, does it mean they are sexist by reducing you to your looks? Will you yell at them for that?

    No, I don't know what your suggestion was, I tried other methods before I post in this thread. I just hope you can answer my question, it's not a hard one, so we could see do we have a difference on the definition of sexism and see how big the gap is.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 7, 2017
  9. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    The bottom line is that reducing a person to their looks is objectification, and doing so in a discussion thread that has nothing to do with it only underlines that. The discussion forums aren't a personal blog where people discuss who they're attracted to, in any event.

    It's also a community forum and when posts make other users uncomfortable, the best thing to do is to take heed of that instead of doubling down on that conduct. No, perhaps it doesn't feel great to be accused of things -- but ending it with "sorry, I didn't mean it like that, I won't do that in the future" is a better way to avoid that.
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  10. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    Reducing a person to their looks is objectification. However, admiring someone's looks does not equal to reducing him/her to his/her looks.

    When Luke said "Who is she? She is beautiful", or Anakin had said "Are you an angel?", it does not mean they are reducing Leia or Padme to their looks, it simply means they are giving their impression on the person. "You are beautiful" does not mean "You have nothing but beauty". I don't get why is it so hard to understand. At least people around me don't have such gap between the definition of objectification. So if Luke Skywalker had come to this forum he would be viewed as a sexist?

    On the other half, if you don't like the topic being derailed, feel free to say so, don't accuse me by sexism or objectification, that's entirely different. And to be honest, there are tons of silly posts in those threads. I will try to avoid them as much as possible.

    So when someone admire your looks by saying "Hi you are beautiful/handsome", you slap on his/her face to tell him/her to apologize with "sorry, I didn't mean it like that, I won't do that in the future"?
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 7, 2017
  11. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 6

    You suggested Marichol Le Pen was pretty, and then immediately asked whether she will run for office. Nothing about her views, competence, or anything of the sort. Just the fact that you thought she was pretty. To everyone else, it appeared that you were basing her future political career on her level of attractiveness, thereby reducing her to her looks. Furthermore it is a thread about European elections. A politician's attractiveness really has no bearing on anything. And you don't see anyone in the thread going on about if Macron is handsome or not. Where you erred was randomly talking about Le Pen's looks and then not even bothering to talk about her politics.
  12. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    I am comfortable with the moderation call made in that thread, and I am comfortable that this doesn't warrant further discussion. That thread was not the time and place for that comment.

    Your examples about complimenting people and/or your continual Star Wars comparisons are irrelevant and inapposite, because you were not engaging someone personally in direct conversation, whose conversation cues would be relevant to such a discussion.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, May 7, 2017
  13. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    You know she do gain the attention partly(if not largely) due to her being young and pretty plus she is the granddaughter of the old Le Pen right? Almost every media says about it when they are introducing her. I only asked will she run for office, never said anything about will I support her at all, or do I think she would win or not. I know her being a FN supporter and I suggest everyone should have knowledge about it, no need to repeat much. How is that sexism?

    So Lando is a big sexist?

    LANDO: You look absolutely beautiful. You truly belong here with us among the clouds.

    And please spell her name correctly if you really respect her. It's Marion Marechal Le Pen.

    it does have effect, JFK was benefited from it during his debate against Nixon. They are politicians, they use everything they've got to gain support.

    "My post is not good to the thread" does not mean "My post shows sexism". Whether should the post be in the thread or is it sexism has a big difference, I don't want to repeat it again, if that's the case, I don't think I will walk there again.

    Compare to us, public figures should have a softer line since they were benefited from being talked. If even direct conversation allow such admiration, how is gossip talk towards a public figure matters?
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 7, 2017
  14. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 6

    You really don't get it do you? You literally said "Le Pen's niece is quite pretty. Will she run in the future?" That's it. (Besides the giant picture you posted of her) No discussion of why she would run, just her looks. You can throw in all the Star Wars references, comparisons to JFK you want, or complaints about me misspelling her name you want but what you posted was inappropriate in the context of the thread. Period.
    Last edited by Point Given, May 7, 2017
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  15. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    Because I think it's common knowledge that she might follow her aunt's step just like her aunt had followed the old Le Pen, in the following posts I've said about her party and politic bias. The pic was from her own twitter if you check the source, I don't think she is objectifying herself.

    Lando pretty much said "hi you are so pretty you deserve to be here with us", that would be huge sexism by such standards.

    Again seriously, she's a public figure, they do have a softer line. Such words isn't even inappropriate during direct conversation like Lando and Leia, why should it matter in gossip talk? Whether was the post relevant to the thread is a question, and that's not why I've tried to communicate here. The problem is being accused for sexism.

    So I post the pic of her and admired her looks is reducing her to her looks, if I just simply say "will she run for office" is reducing her to nothing? I believe such question has been asked in everywhere.

    You want me to stop the topic, fine, but don't accuse me for something like that. I believe nobody here wants Luke or Anakin or Lando being accused for such thing.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 7, 2017
  16. V-2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I know this isn't a court of public opinion but here's mine fwiw.

    Slowpokeking - you added nothing to, and distracted from an ostensibly political discussion with what looks like a superficial comment on the physical attractiveness of a fascist politician. It's not surprising that you got your wrists slapped, and what you're doing now looks like trolling (though judging from past conversations with you, I suspect you don't mean anything (literally anything) by it.

    Nobody likes to be called out on their bigotry or prejudices, especially when you consider yourself above such things. However, you're now coming over as guilty and unrepentant, or unwilling/unable to understand what you've done, or what you're doing. You're trying to justify your behaviour by comparing a real life fascist demagogue to a fictional anti-fascist freedom fighting astronaut princess, and yourself to a fictional Chosen One, and a fictional card shark cum mining administrator. It's all a bit much, really.
  17. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    Again, whether my post is relevant to the thread and am I a sexist are completely different topics. I wasn't serious in that thread but calling me a sexist is something completely different.

    Calling others pretty has nothing to do with prejudice at all.

    It doesn't matter they are fictional or not, the ideology is accepted here otherwise we won't have this community. And simply because you don't like someone's politic opinion doesn't mean you can't admire anything of them. That is truly reducing a person to their political opinion. The Rebel Alliance isn't going to yell on you if you say Tarkin looks good in his age, or Palpatine was handsome before showing his true face.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 8, 2017
  18. V-2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    But don't you see how your actions linked those two topics together?

    Evidently false.

    Look, it was socially acceptable for Luke to tell his newly acquired electronic slaves that he thought his twin sister was pretty hot. It was socially acceptable for a dastardly cad to perv and creep over Leia. It was socially acceptable for a socially naive slave boy to ask a queen posing as a handmaiden if she was a species of beautiful alien. There's a whole galaxy of context attached to all those situations that simply isn't relevant to your situation. Give it up.
  19. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    I think you are messing up them when they are completely different.

    And it's not socially acceptable when we credit a public figure/politician's looks, when most of the media reports of her mention that, and the FN is using her age and appearance to attract younger voters?
  20. V-2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    So your post was a comment on that?
  21. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    Basically I was just saying "hi she's pretty. I heard she's going to run in the future" It never indicated "I'm going to vote for her or support her for that". It got nothing to do with sexism at all. You don't become a sexist when you credit someone's looks, especially to a public figure. And especially when she was pushed out to attract young people to support FN.

    Seriously, it's just a thread for Star Wars fans to talk about politics when they got nothing better to do. 99% of the people here couldn't decide a dame in the French politics. There are tons of meaningless posts in those threads. Accusing others for sexism simply due to a "she's pretty" post is wayy over the top. Rebels don't punish you for credit on Tarkin's looks or Thrawn's taste on artworks, that is the difference between the Empire and the Republic, while I doubt even the Empire care about it at all.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 8, 2017
  22. V-2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    So you admit you weren't making any political or satirical point at all, but you don't think what you did was sexist, and you don't think your post was irrelevant in a politics thread. I think this is actually what you're being called out on.

    I'm just saying it's easy to imagine lots of people thinking that what you did was sexist/subversive trolling. I doubt you intended that - indeed I doubt you're actually sensitive to that. I actually agree to some extent that saying you're attracted to someone doesn't make you a sexist, but doing so in a politics discussion, especially with no context or political arguments being made, and especially regarding a fascist demagogue, seems badly out of place (unless you're trying to antagonise the kinds of people who'd get annoyed by that sort of thing). Subsequently comparing a fascist to Princess Leia/Carrie Fisher was also quite an antagonistic thing to be doing. You might be acting without malice but it can easily come across in the opposite way.
  23. DANNASUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 6
    The only meaningless posts in those threads are yours, Slowpokeking.
  24. Slowpokeking Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 5
    Marion Le Pen is a member of FN, saying she would run for office means that far right party does not give up on their effort. I don't know why is it so hard to understand. Or are you reducing her to her looks without checking on her background?

    What do you mean by political argument? It's a thread for Star Wars fan to post their thoughts on politics when they couldn't find anything to do. 99% of them aren't politicians and couldn't decide a thing on politics, there is nothing divine about it at all. Even in REAL politics, it's never sexism to credit someone's looks. JFK was even benefited from it. In REAL politics, the politicians use everything they've got to attract people, they don't care about the reason as long as you vote for them. Marion Le Pen also benefited from her age and looks to gain extra attention. THAT, is how politic really works.

    What are you talking about? Dislike someone's political opinion does not mean you have to discredit everything. Leia and Padme got praised by their looks got nothing to do with their political opinion at all. Tarkin, Dooku and Palpatine(before showing his true face) were all very nice looking people. Does the Rebel forbid people to praise their looks? No.

    You don't discredit everything of a person simply because you don't agree with their political opinion, that is what the Empire do. Sure Marion Le Pen's politic opinion is not acceptable to many people, but she hadn't done anything horrible and still follow the law. It's totally ok to credit on her looks.

    Even if we bring it down to the lowest bottom line, the Godwin line, Hitler. Shall someone be accused as a Nazi supporter by praise some of Hitler's artworks or agreeing with his taste on movies? Not likely. That's what makes the Republic different from the Empire.

    Will Vader choke you if you say Mon Mothma/Leia/Luke looks good? Maybe.

    It's a Star Wars forum, the threads were created for the fans to gossip on politics when they got nothing better to do. Surely many posts are meaningless, just like every community's politic threads.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, May 8, 2017
  25. V-2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I take back what I said about you not being a troll.
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