Saga Showing SW for the first time

Yeah, I'm now regretting showing the Blu-ray instead of the Despecialized Edition. I'm not making that mistake with TESB or RotJ.

 

Ok sounds good! I would have have started with Phantom Menace, but at least you hooked her! Good job!

 

Hm, I disagree because I am with Lucas in saying the Blu Ray's are the canon movies. But since film is preference/taste, do what you feel is right......

 

It all depends on your intentions for the viewer. Do you want them to see these movies as a cohesive story? Or just retro movies? If that latter, then I would agree just showing the OT theatricals. If you want to experience a saga, watch the 2011 blu ray set in chronological order (which is what GL and I prefer).

 

I think it depends. Are you wanting to show the OOT because of historical context, or are you just interested in showing the films all together? Likewise, are they interested in historical context or just entertainment?

 

I think OOT with release order provides context (historical, cultural, technological, artistic, etc.) and entertainment. It tells a story that, while it's not the one that Lucas prefers nowadays, is still a great way to experience Star Wars because it preserves the original story structure of the OT and then branches out from there.

 

Yes, but what are your motives versus someone else's? Everyone's motives are different. For me, it isn't about historical context or what Lucas wants. I have the OT on Blu-Ray, so that would be what someone sees. If you have the OOT and show it, your motive is going to be tainted in part by historical context and your preference for that version. That's not wrong, nor is mine right.

 

When you say "your motives versus someone else's", does the "someone else's" refer to the hypothetical person that I'd be showing the films to? If so, then it's definitely possible that this person doesn't care about context per se. But I'd compare it to a little kid eating vegetables; he may not care for his broccoli now, but he'll appreciate that he was forced to eat it when he gets older in the same way that I now appreciate watching almost every version of Star Wars so that I can have a better appreciation for how it has evolved and why it is what it is. I'll agree with you that this does not make my approach necessarily correct...it's just my approach.

Anyway, I think it's really difficult nowadays to avoid bias. If you don't recommend a version or viewing order, there will still be bias in the form of the most readily available release (Blu-ray) and the way those movies are numbered on the boxes. Even if you sit them down and explain the entire history of Star Wars' production so that they can make an informed decision about what to watch, will a child really even comprehend all that? It's like trying to explain the pros and cons of complex carbs vs. simple carbs in a balanced diet to a 5-year-old; it's better to just feed the child a healthy diet and explain the details to them once they get older. And even if it's an adult, can we still be sure that they'll truly grasp everything? I mean, discussions about the original story structure and how it was altered by later films that chronologically precede but that the creator is satisfied with....seem a bit dense for the average non-hardcore viewer. Practically speaking, I don't think there's truly a way to avoid bias altogether. So given that, I'll probably just continue with my "tainted motives" (aka: opinions about what's best).

 

moar.

 

Yes, someone else refers to the hypothetical person. If you have an idea of what kind of person you're dealing with, then the context is either important or not. If said person has similar beliefs that you do, then your approach would probably be more appropriate. If it is someone like myself, then historical context is unimportant.

But with regards to forcing someone to "eat", one shouldn't force it. Let them come to it on their own and not force them. I'm a picky eater and as such, I wasn't forced to eat certain foods, but came to do so on my own. Likewise, one shouldn't force someone to enjoy "Star Wars" the way that you do. Let them develop their own love and if they become interested in historical context, then by all means, give them access to it.

That's why you don't force a child to watch it for historical context. You let them watch it for the entertainment value and when they're older, if they're curious, then go for it. With adults, you're still putting a tainted bias if you try to explain things before than. Just let them watch the films and if they have questions, then you answer them and if they're curious to see it differently, then you go from there.

 

The "force" part of my analogy doesn't exactly hold up. I wouldn't force anyone to watch a set of movies a certain way. I would give my recommendation & subsequent reasoning regarding the matter, but it's ultimately their choice. Remember, my own opinion would just be one factor out of many that they'd be considering (another factor would be the episodic numbering on the boxes). If this person is a child, then what exactly do you propose I do? Dump every possible version of every movie on the table and have the child blindly pick one to watch in any random order? The child is inevitably going to look at me and ask what to do, and I'm not going to shy away from giving a recommendation.

Like I said, I won't force anything, but I'm going to give the recommendation that encompasses both context and entertainment value. It doesn't have to be one or the other; my approach allows for both, and covers the "context" base should that potentially become important as he or she gets older. And are you saying that giving any sort of recommendation whatsoever is introducing a "tainted bias"? Well if that's true, then the numbers on the boxes are also putting a "tainted bias" towards the episodic viewing order. And the wide availability of the Blu-rays is putting a "tainted bias" towards those specific versions of the films. So it seems like bias can't really be escaped. My own recommendations to someone are just one out of many opposing biases that this person will inevitably come across regarding these movies.

 

You just present the Blu-Ray set and let them watch the films on their own, letting them develop their own thoughts and feelings. It won't hurt them to start with TPM, anymore than it would to start with ANH.

Personal bias is different from studio/director intent. The latter always comes first. Even in the case of "Blade Runner", Scott's intent is to just watch what he put out originally, over his own director's cut or the other cuts. Even though he okay'd all versions, to him the original cut is his director's cut. Even if someone else thinks it should be the official director's cut or another cut. In the case of "Highlander: Endgame", the Producer's Cut is the one that they endorse over the theatrical cut. With the OT, Lucas and now Lucasfilm's intent is the SE.

 

Why the Blu-ray set? I'm certainly not letting them develop their own thoughts and feelings by only letting them pick from the Blu-ray versions of the films. That seems like a "tainted bias" towards those particular versions.

"No! No different! Only different in your mind."

No matter how you want to frame it, bias is bias. Lucas' bias is that he wants to push his more recent vision for the saga over his older one. And what you're saying is only true if you look at this from an artist-centric perspective. If you approach it from an art-centric perspective, there is a clear divide between the earlier iteration with its original story structure, and the later iteration with its modified story structure and context. It's my view that art takes on a life of its own once it's released. So even if the artist later prefers that people experience the modified and restructured version of said art, the original work still transcends that artist. Lucas' "director intent" allows him to decide what to officially release and what viewing order to endorse, but it ends there. No disrespect to Lucas, but I value the integrity of the original work more than I do his opinion on how the films should be watched.

 

Well, assuming that you don't have the OOT on disc, that would be the version you set before them. If you have it on disc or tape, then show that.

Not really. If like Pym's case they don't like the CGI and make note of it, then you could just show them the OOT and see how they judge the films then. And if they do develop a bias towards the SE's, where's the harm in that?

Bias from studios and directors will exist no matter what. No matter how many versions are out there, and their intent should be respected. Regardless of whatever changes.

 

My point was that if you only give them a limited selection to choose from, then you predispose them to developing a bias towards it, whether it's OOT or Blu-ray. And that ties into my larger point that it's not practically feasible to avoid any and all forms of bias when showing these movies to someone. If I show them the OOT + release order, then they're exposed to my bias. If I just present the Blu-rays to them, then they're exposed to Lucas' bias via the numbering on the boxes & the versions of the movies. If I try to fairly explain both sides of it, then it's going to go over their head. Bias simply cannot be escaped.

Sure, but I'd place more importance on the integrity of the original art than I would on the director's changing intent years after said art is released. So in my book, while both are important, the art takes precedence over the artist.

 

But why does it matter if they only watch the Blu-Ray version and in episodic order? Why is your bias so important? Let them have their own bias. If they want to know more, either right away or five years later, then it's all good.

Why?

 

Sure, not all bias is the same, but it's also not accurate to say that the director's bias should take ultimate precedence over anything else. The value that one places on an artist-centric bias versus an art-centric bias is ultimately subjective, which is what I'm getting at. The artist may prefer that the films to be watched in a certain way but that's not the end-all-be-all decision maker, especially when you consider other factors like context and integrity of the original art itself.

Like I said, they can't escape bias one way or the other. If I don't give a recommendation, then they will be under Lucas' bias. So I guess it doesn't matter if I give a recommendation or not but.....why does it matter if I do? The way we're using the word bias, you'd think I were giving them some kind of lecture on what kind of Star Wars is okay and which viewing order is correct, etc. But really, all I'm saying is "Hey, do you wanna watch the 1977 movie Star Wars with me? You do? Sweet! I'll go make the popcorn!" That's really no different than someone deciding on their own to get into the Star Wars franchise, seeing "Episode I" on one of the movies, and simply deciding to start from there. So I ask you, why is my approach so problematic while the latter scenario is not? Because what Lucas wants is superior to what I want? Well, I think I've explained my take on that matter: I think that the original art takes precedence over everything, and that is what my reasoning is rooted in.

It's because I view art as a time capsule that reflects the culmination of several factors including artistic intent at the time, technological limitations of the time, possible studio interference, collaboration with other artists, budgetary constraints, the culture of that time period, and more. All of these factors work together to ultimately create a movie. And while you can look at a movie on just the surface level of "that's a cool story", there are several other angles from which it can be appreciated. For example, I gained an appreciation for the puppet-work required to bring Yoda to life in TESB and how all the sets had to be elevated to accommodate this. But if that Yoda is replaced with a CG version, then this aspect is lost and the movie is no longer a culmination of factors from a very specific time period. There's truly something to be said about looking at a movie like Star Wars and appreciating how it ended up being something so monumental, but only a small percentage of what Lucas actually wanted to do with it at the time. It shows, especially in movies, that there's more to art than just what the director wants.

 

Wow, this seems to be turning into an entirely different topic! I think we can ALL agree Film is art and art is ultimately subjective to the viewer like taste in food. Since it's all in the eyes of the beholder, there is no true "correct" way to watch Star Wars. BUT I will say I personally have the utmost of respect for Lucas as a story-teller and will always stick to complete chronological order for the entire saga, not just the Episodic films. It's how I exposed my wife to SW and she's loved it ever since. Not saying that's the "correct" way, but it worked for me so I'm sticking to it. Just watch "The Chosen One" documentary on the Ep III DVD and that's where my reasoning comes from.

 

Whoops. My 2 and 4 year olds caught me watching TPM the other day so the decision was almost taken out of my hands.

But they didn't really like it and wanted it off. So the damage was limited. Oh well. Could have been worse. I could have been watching GoT.

 

But what is so bad about being under Lucas's bias? I'm not talking about you, but the new generation. What would it hurt to see the SE and I-IX?

But why qualify it as 1977 "Star Wars" and not just "Star Wars"?

But is it important for someone else to have those points of view? To me, it seems as if you are trying to put your view on them instead of just letting them see it on their own and come to view things as you do, on their own.