Something that, I think, makes Episode I better- JUST a theory!

okay, i didn't even read your whole letter, but you are wrong that qui-gon knew sideous and everybody, and that's why they were runnning.
i agree that i was confused about that part when i first say the movie. why were they running to begin with? BUT....
if you watch the deleted scenes in the DVD version of episode I, you will see that qui-gon noticed the little spy thing that darth maul sent out after him and smashed it with his lightsaber, so he KNEW that somebody was looking for him. HA!

 

How old are you, kiddo?

okay, i didn't even read your whole letter

Problem A.

but you are wrong that qui-gon knew sideous and everybody, and that's why they were runnning.

Thanks, George.

i agree that i was confused about that part when i first say the movie. why were they running to begin with? BUT....

No, you're just confused.

if you watch the deleted scenes in the DVD version of episode I, you will see that qui-gon noticed the little spy thing that darth maul sent out after him and smashed it with his lightsaber, so he KNEW that somebody was looking for him. HA!

if u watch da deweted seens in da DVD vershon of episode I, u will c dat dere is no such seen but i culd be wrongo

Haha, kids these days.

 

hehehe...Tre-Hug Jinn...

There is a hippie teacher at my old school, who has his hair just like Qui-Gons.

 

There is a hippie teacher at my old school, who has his hair just like Qui-Gons.

If you seen my English IV instructor, you would have ran up to him begging for an autograph.

And then you would have been embarassed.

 

Good thoughts everyone. Good thread Pooja.

Anyway, I had started a thread along these lines about a week ago and it was pretty much immediately dismissed. It must be the May '02 under my user name. *sigh*

Anyhow, this is what I was thinking on this issue based on this line by Dooku in AOTC....

Obi-Wan: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.

Dooku: Don't be sure my young Jedi. You forget that he was once my apprentice just as you were once his. He knew about all the corruption in the Senate, but he never would have gone along with it if he had learned the truth as I have.

Obi-Wan: The truth?

Dooku then talks about the Sith controlling the Senate and so on and so forth. I think there are different ways one can interpret this line. The first way would be in the hypothetical sense that if Qui-Gon were still alive he wouldn't go along with Dooku because of the Sith in the Senate. The other way to interpret this is that Qui-Gon did in fact go along with something but would not have if he knew the truth about the Senate.

So it is my belief (and opinion/speculation ) that Qui-Gon helped Dooku do something that unwittingly played into the Sith Lord's hands. (Namely Sidious.) Such as, order the clone army under the guise of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. Who knows what else he may have done. We'll find out in Episode III I'm sure. As I'm under the belief that we haven't heard the last of Qui-Gon Jinn. (Since we hear his voice and he is mentioned as if to make sure we don't forget about him.) Now, I'm not saying that Qui-Gon is or is not a villian. Because frankly I have no idea. There is another chapter in the saga to definitively clear this up. This is merely Speculation on my part. As of right now there is nothing that definitely says that he is or is not. My belief (opinion) is that he wasn't evil but was "tricked" so to speak, into doing the Sith's bidding. Everyone is Sidious' pawn. Everyone from the Senate to Dooku to Yoda....and maybe even Qui-Gon. Everything is going according to his design. Personally, I can't wait for the next flick to answer all of these questions!!

Those are my thoughts. I'd love to hear the feedback.

"Now, where was I...?" ? -Lenny

 

Interesting points, but I do not buy the whole Qui-Gon is bad or playing with the wrong team theory. He just has a different interpretation of the force than most. He serves the force, not the politicians as most jedi obviously do. The thing I don't like about your ideas is that just because Dooku was Qui-Gon's master he must have known. Yes the master and apprentice are close, but I don't feel that means that one will follow their ideals/actions at all. Dooku obviously did not follow Yoda's teachings very well, and as we know Dooku was his padawan.

By the way, that scene is on the deleted scenes section of the dvd.

 

Good thoughts everyone. Good thread Pooja.

*nods*

Anyway, I had started a thread along these lines about a week ago and it was pretty much immediately dismissed. It must be the May '02 under my user name. *sigh*

I get that a lot too.

So it is my belief (and opinion/speculation ) that Qui-Gon helped Dooku do something that unwittingly played into the Sith Lord's hands. (Namely Sidious.)

Agreed. This is my whole point; whether it goes with what I think or not.

Such as, order the clone army under the guise of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas.

Thing about that; see; we don't know who Sifo-Dyas was to BEGIN with. If they would have used the name "Mace Windu" then okay, we could assume that one of the baddies used Mace's name when ordering the clones, and we'd leave it at that. But Sifo-Dyas wasn't known AT ALL until now. That makes it that much more suspicious and mysterious.


Who knows what else he may have done. We'll find out in Episode III I'm sure. As I'm under the belief that we haven't heard the last of Qui-Gon Jinn. (Since we hear his voice and he is mentioned as if to make sure we don't forget about him.)

Again, agreed. As I said in another one of my threads that went down the hole because everyone thought it was stupid, I think Qui-Gin is the true "Phantom Menace" of the Episode I title.

Now, I'm not saying that Qui-Gon is or is not a villian. Because frankly I have no idea. There is another chapter in the saga to definitively clear this up. This is merely Speculation on my part.

At least you realize its just speculation. Most people think that -I- think I know it for fact. I'm just idealizing here.

As of right now there is nothing that definitely says that he is or is not.

Oh, most people here can tell you EVERYTHING about it.

My belief (opinion) is that he wasn't evil but was "tricked" so to speak, into doing the Sith's bidding.

Two things- either tricked or succumbed into it.

Everyone is Sidious' pawn. Everyone from the Senate to Dooku to Yoda....and maybe even Qui-Gon. Everything is going according to his design. Personally, I can't wait for the next flick to answer all of these questions!!

*nods*

Those are my thoughts. I'd love to hear the feedback.

You got it. Great post.

 

By the way, that scene is on the deleted scenes section of the dvd.

Where at? I don't remember it. If it IS, my bad.

Dooku obviously did not follow Yoda's teachings very well, and as we know Dooku was his padawan.

If Yoda was my master at the time, I wouldn't be scheming either.

 

Yeah, it's part of the "Farewell to Jira" scene. Too bad it was cut, it was pretty cool.

 

Wow. I wonder how many teachers there are that look like Qui-Gon...

Before me and my brother knew anything about episode I and had just seen pictures, we always called Qui-Gon "Mr. Davidson".

Good points being brought up here Im glad someone finally made a thread where this can be discussed!

 

Yeah, it's part of the "Farewell to Jira" scene. Too bad it was cut, it was pretty cool.

Then, my bad. I'm apologize to the person I made fun of.

Now see, Pooja can be forgiving.


Before me and my brother knew anything about episode I and had just seen pictures, we always called Qui-Gon "Mr. Davidson".

I referred to him as Hippie Jedi.

Good points being brought up here Im glad someone finally made a thread where this can be discussed!

I'm just glad we can talk about it without the topic getting locked or TPM bashers coming in and ruining everything.

Surely won't be this way too much longer, I fear.

 

People are allowed to say how wrong your theory is, y'know Pooja. That's what a discussion is. You just seem to want a thread filled with people who agree with you. Well, too bad

And don't make fun of people like you did before with starwarsjunkie (who was actually right in what he said). Not cool

 

People are allowed to say how wrong your theory is, y'know Pooja. That's what a discussion is.

I realize this. People have been disagreeing with me since my initial post, but they done so in a proper manner that made me believe they didn't think they knew eveything; as if they had seen Episode III or read the script.

You just seem to want a thread filled with people who agree with you. Well, too bad

If I wanted to have an entire society to agree with me, I would start a topic about how breathing is required to live.

And don't make fun of people like you did before with starwarsjunkie (who was actually right in what he said). Not cool

Originally posted by starwarsjunkieLALALA:

okay, i didn't even read your whole letter, but you are wrong that qui-gon knew sideous and everybody, and that's why they were runnning.

I hate it when people think they are POSITIVE about things. If he wouldn't have acted like he knew, for sure, 100% what was going on, I wouldn't have done that. But people tend to (for some reason) think that they know everything. Like they are helping Lucas write the stories.

Only when people act like they are Lucas, do I begin flaming.

Also, I -did- apologize. Which is, quite frankly, out of character for me, but I apologized when it was due.

 

I think it is quite possible that Quigon had some involvement in the events that occurred and helped the sith but I don't think that he was consiously involved. In other words, if he did anything I don't think he knew he was helping the sith. In all likelyhood if he did anything it was to help his old master Dooku.

I say this because
1. were Quigon in league with the sith, he and Maul would have turned on Obiwan and killed him. There would have been no reason for Maul and Quigon to fight each other.

2. Padme would also have been dead by the time that the battle of Naboo were over

3. Quigon wouldn't have been killed. Dark jedi don't seem like the type to commit any type of acts of self sacrifice.

There are more but I think that these are the most obvious. I think that the comments that most people have been bringing up were in the movies to show that the line where light side turns to dark side is actually very thin. It is likely that Quigon walked one side, still doing good but very often straying from what was expected of him by the council in his defiance. While Dooku crossed the line with his defiance into the dark side.

 

Qui Gon Evil No!!
Qui Gon yet another Pawn Yes!!

I would like not to think Qui Gon as being
Evil. But could Dooku have words to him and convince him to do his will, Probably. AOTC certainly indicates that Dooku had talks with Qui Gon and he certainly doesn't agree with the council 100% defiant he is, this is obviously because of Dooku's tutoring.
As far as Qui Gon not having time to order the Clones, AOTC also shows that Master & Padawan are sent on Individual Missions from time to time.
As stated at the top I don't think that Qui Gonn would deliberatly do anything to hurt the council, I do think it possible with his defiant nature that he could be used as a Pawn by Dooku who is a Pawn of Sidiuos

So roll on Ep3 to answer this

 

pooja often makes some great points -- one of them is certainly this:
"I hate it when people think they are POSITIVE about things. If he wouldn't have acted like he knew, for sure, 100% what was going on, I wouldn't have done that. But people tend to (for some reason) think that they know everything. Like they are helping Lucas write the stories."

AMEN BROTHER!

and yes, it is a deleted scene that qui-gon slashes the "sith" probe droid.
i placed "sith" in quotes because obviously qui-gon should have no idea it is "sith" - just a probe droid.

unless, qui-gon has sith relations - and IMHO - he does not have direct sith relations at all.
maybe he is convoluted in his slant to the force, but i do NOT believe he is sith.

why did gl cut this scene all together instead of just cutting jira and leaving the slashing of the droid?
it's beyond me.
it seems necessary to establish why they are running.
but i guess qui-gon could have been rushing, or sensed a dark tremor in the force.

either way, if i turned around and saw maul coming - i'd have told anakin to stop, drop, and roll too!!!!!!!!!!

 

I think Dooku asked Qui Gon to join him and he refused, and that is why the Trade Federation tries to kill him and Obiwan at the beginning of TPM.

I also had another thought. Maybe Sifodous (sp?) was Darth Maul. It seemd there is a trend in Star Wars that the Sith apprentice was once a Jedi Knight and he turns to the dark side. Sifodous died 10 years ago and that was when Darth Maul appeared. What do you guys think??

 

I don't think it's a trend among the Sith to turn a Jedi to the dark side to get an apprentice. Lucas has confirmed recently that Darth Maul was trained from infancy by Sidious and that it was what he should have done with the new one. But he didn't have 20 years in front of him and he turned a Jedi instead. Lucas made it sound like it's a mistake to do that. ROTJ kind of explain us why - turning a Jedi using their greed and desire for power doesn't give you a loyal apprentice like Maul, it gives you an apprentice like Vader who wants to seize his master's place, given the chance. The same is probably true of Tyranus, he would probably die naturally long before his master.

------------

About QG being part of the "bad guys", I don't think it can be true, for several reasons.

When you elaborate a theory like that that basically rely on "hidden clues" and foreshadowing, it's important to look at the "behind the scene" information and make sure the clues could really be there and not only be imagined.

A big plot twist like that would have to be planned since the beginning. especially if Lucas planted hidden foreshadowing everywhere like your theory proposes. This means that QG and his master had to be created right from the start and their storyarc developped to fit with Palpatine's plan etc.

But that's not the case. First, QG was added to the screenplay of Phantom Menace very late. Lucas realized it was better for Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship to show another working Master-Apprentice relationship before showing the one that won't work. He also wanted Obi-Wan to be less experienced when he met Anakin. That's essentially the reasons for adding QG to the plot.

Dooku was also created very late in the process of writing AOTC. Lucas scrapped his earlier ideas for the new sith apprentice and decided to create a former Jedi instead. He made him QG's master.

As you see, most of the "hidden clues" you propose in TPM can hardly be there because Lucas had no idea that QG's master would be part of the plot. Most of QG's scenes and attitudes were also initially played by Obi-Wan alone. I wouldn't read too much into them unless you believe Obi-Wan too is part of the "bad guys".

Someone else pointed out the reason for QG and Anakin running in the desert. The explanation was in a scene cut during postproduction.

In the last Homing Beacon, Lucas has clarified a bit Dooku's motivations. Dooku truly was horrified by the corruption, and his feelings about QG's death were genuine. In need of an apprentice after Maul's death, Sidious use Dooku's desire for more power to change things to turn him to the dark side. It happened *after* QG's death. Dooku was not the ally of Sidious or the TF at the time of TPM. The TF is blatantly corrupted, it's only after his turn to the dark side that Dooku, who hated corruption, would have aligned himself with people like that (and even then he knew they were to be betrayed and destroyed along the road, they are not true allies by any means).

Then there are the more subjective reasons why I don't like the idea of QG being a bad guy.

If you remember the OT, a big theme was the System vs. the Individual. Darth Vader has rejected his identity and he was now an half-machine serving a machinistic system. Luke made him rediscover his true self, the good and loving Anakin, and Vader redeemed himself and accomplished his destiny.

It's also the story of a few individuals who refused to serve the evil system and took the matters in their own hands. "Trust your feelings", think for yourself, put your powers in the service of what you believe to be good. In the end, Luke trusted his feelings more than he trusted the admonitions of Obi-Wan that he must kill Vader and the Emperor. And Luke won.

I think in the prequels Lucas is developping these ideas further and in another direction, because this time the system itself, the Republic and the Jedi Order, are flawed but still basically good. In the character of Qui-Gon we get the defiant Jedi who refuses to

 

Madame_Jocasta_Nu:
you know i did not like your attitude in the movie - but your post is fantastic!!!

what a relief to read someone's thoughts with a high IQ!!!

you articulated a lot of what i was thinking if i could articulate as well as you!!!


EDIT:
i started Did the Jedi of the Old Republic EVER get it right? in the OT Forum based on your thoughts here -- please come check it out if you can.

i could use some help defending my premise!!!

 

Yeah- GREAT points. I agree with essentially everything you've said, but I'm just VERY hard headed, and nothing can convince me that Qui-Gon isn't suspicious. Maybe he isn't evil- or isn't bad- but DEFINETLY up to something. I just...KNOW...that he was up to something. At least, that's what I THINK. Key point- knowing and thinking. Thinking is okay, but knowing isn't, since no one knows jack yet.

He had it written all over his bad hippie self.

 

hippies are notoriously bad liars. hehe.

 

Hippies are cool, but yes they are God forsaken fibbers.

Heh, God Forsaken Fibbers...sounds like a rock band...

...err...

ANYWAY about Qui-Gon being weird and stuff...

 

Madame_Jocasta_Nu>

You have levied some very valid points and I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with them. (I love your theory on Qui Gon and Dooku and it is very clear in the films now I think of it)

However, I would just like to bring up one point you should have considered in the first part of your argument:

While Qui Gon and Dooku were both late additions, when writing a screenplay, the story evolves of its own accord. While they may be the self serving characters you must also take into account that their creation prompted a change, however slight, in Lucas' master plan. Qui Gon could have a bigger part to play in proceedings, (Dooku almost certainly will due to the end of AotC) we can speculate all we like, its what the forum is for and there is still a possibility. However, we will not truly know until May 2005. (That is if we all keep to the promise of remaining spoiler free)

 

I think that you are right, not all of Qui-gon's character has been revealed. But I don't think that what was hidden is evil. Quite the opposite, actually.

The Jedi council is definitely going downhill, the PT is making that clear. Somewhere along the way they have gotten off track, imposing strict regulations on Jedi and losing touch with the "living force". Qui-gon rebels against the council because he sees how they are failing! Yoda eventually comes around to see that Qui-gon was right about his philosophies of the force and the Jedi code all along. Check out these quotes and see if this makes sense to you now:

OB1: "Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future."
QGJ: "But not at the expense of the moment."

This quote makes it clear that the Council is more into meditation and thinking through what is right. QGJ also says to Anakin, "Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts." This is the type of philosophy that goes against the beliefs of the council and Yoda. Yoda says things like, "Meditate on this some more, I must."

Now contrast this to Ben and Yoda's philosophies in the OT.

Ben: "Let go, Luke. Trust your feelings."

But here is the most important quote-

Yoda: "Always looked away. To the FUTURE. (said with much contempt) Never paid attention to where he WAS, to what he was DOING."

Yoda has totally come around to Qui-gon's philosophy! The council was wrong! That's what caused their downfall, they were arrogant. I am hoping we will see more about this in Ep3, but I think the basics are pretty well outlined already.

Qui-Gon was ahead of his time. He understood the force better than the Jedi council. Yoda and Ben will come to understand this in Ep3.

All my own theory of course! I could be way off, but this is how I see it.

EDIT: OK, I wish I had read Jocasta_Nu's post before I posted this. She views QGJ's character in pretty much the same way I do. Nice post.

 

markdil:

fantastic observations about yoda's lines!!!!!!!

i am speechless!

meditate on this, i must - or hould i just act on it and start typing????? [face_shocked]