Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    COW,

    Right, plus a lightsaber, a cable, and a detonator. I loved how Luke took down one AT-AT single-handedly. Did he give up when he had his snowspeeder knocked out of the sky. Nope! Not Luke!

    * Scratch one AT-AT.

    So you think Luke should stick with being an X-wing Fighter jock rather than a Jedi???

    * I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, yes Luke did focus on rebuilding the Jedi but he never gave up flying an X-Wing either. The Superman analogy is interesting here as Superman rarely works in the arena of politics, like Luke, Superman is a hero in the mould of upholding the status quo and those that wish to destroy it.

    I do agree with you and TMcE that authors should give Luke lots of physical and analytical challenges and "have the action come to him". Above all, I'd really like to see Luke be shown as wise, competent, successful, and RIGHT, for a change. Luke shouldn't keep looking like a fool. AND, at this point in his Jedi career, he shouldn't be making such major "mistakes" as killing for revenge.

    * A pity that, as it could easily have been done as a necessary act given Alema Rar's record of incredible survival. Does Luke kill Lumiya or let her fall, knowing she could survive by slowing her descent at the last few seconds and that no cell can hold her? One area where SW is curious is that it has no anti-Force tech in the way most superhero stories have a form of power nullifiers, save the ysalamiri.

    JB
  2. Lord_Riven Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Of course, I don't mind if Luke and Anakin share the main character status, after all most epic movies have more than one main character - but if I was forced to choose one and one only, it would be Anakin for the reasons previously stated.

    I do agree that Anakin could have made everything easier had he have made the right choice in the beginning, but then I believe we do lose the drama of the OT :D.

    Seriously speaking though, I do believe that Anakin is a hero, he choose the right thing in the end, he died to save his son from certain death. Plus, Luke argues that Anakin as a hero (cf JAT/I,Jedi).

    That's another reason that I REALLY hated that Luke was written as killing Lumiya for revenge in Sacrifice. Heroes shouldn't stoop to the same level as the heroes

    Don't even get me started on this one. The level of vitriol that I will spew out at the Powers That Be (aka whoever decided to write that mess) is probably going to be a TOS violation in itself. :D

    Luke is different to Anakin. Luke's the shining white hero, he's not meant to do morally ambiguous things - maybe except hitting on his twin sister :D. Kiling Lumiya for revenge is OOC for Luke (and OOC is only done in fanfic).
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Luke is different to Anakin. Luke's the shining white hero, he's not meant to do morally ambiguous things - maybe except hitting on his twin sister grin . Kiling Lumiya for revenge is OOC for Luke (and OOC is only done in fanfic).

    Actually, that's Flanderization of Luke. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

    One of Luke's major character arcs is the fact that he's full of anger, impatience, and "for bit a nail" he might have ended up becoming a New Darth Vader.

    Luke chooses the Light but BY A HAIR'S BREADTH.

    He's got GREAT capacity for evil in him, just as he has great capacity for good.
  4. Havoc_Wing Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2006
    star 2
    ...Force, no.

    --HW
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Old characters I could see Luke marrying


    Alex Winger
    Kirana Ti
    Callista
    Winter (if Tycho dies----at last Luke can marry someone who looks like his sister)
  6. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    Kam's wounds prove too great and Luke realizes his long-burning desire for Tionne? :D

    *Ducks and covers, especially from Windy* :p
  7. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    I doubt that Luke will remarry or even have any affairs in the future. If they intend to give the ragged remains of the younger generation the limelight, then Luke having a romance and getting married would certainly hamper that goal. And then there is Mara, Luke's no ordinary widower. Strictly speaking, any affair would be unfaithfullness towards her because she isn't really dead, but immortal now.

    What comes to the Anakin/Luke thing, in the movies it's more Anakin's story now - his life is the unifying thing. In the EU there's much more stories about Luke than Anakin, and Anakin's great deed of destroying the Sith has been flushed down the toilet. That diminishes his importance. Of course, then there's Legacy, who goes and largely destroyes Luke's achievements. Still, I would say that the EU belongs more to Luke than Anakin.
  8. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Yeah, that's cool - and most likely the reading the author was going for. Like I said, it can be stretched... but only if you want it to. I do, you don't. S'all good. :)

  9. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    Considering what happens to GA in Legacy I would like the Jedi to keep a certain distance of it after LotF. Because if they, or just their Grand Master, would become closely involved in it's politics, it's eventual inability to overcome the Vongforming crisis and to survive the war could be seen partly as the Jedi's fault.[face_worried] On the other hand, them keeping a certain distance to GA could also be seen negatively, leading to the decision where two GA triumvirs disregarded Kol Skywalker's warning and let Rear Admiral Petan lead the GA to it's destruction.:( As I see it, it is a lose-lose situation:(, but I think that less blame will fall on the Jedi if they were not themselves players in GA politics between LotF and Legacy. So I hope that whatever help Luke and the Jedi give to GA in the future doesn't lead them to the kind of relationship that existed before LotF.
  10. morrison85 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2005
    star 5
    What about Jaina rather being some kind of directly related to Cade? Cade looks a lot like HAn on the the first vecotr cover :p
  11. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    I don't know about Jaina... But what about Allana?:confused: It would be possible for Kol to be a son of a Hapan princess, Allana's grandson. The relationship would be so distant, that I don't think the joining of Luke and Leia's lineages this way would bother anyone. There was the hint of a connection to Hapes in Legacy, and it would make more sense if the connection would be closer than what we would expect based on LotF. Now, if Cade could just push that Antares guy out of the picture and save Marasiah (Jaina's likely descendant) on the side of the truly good guys...[face_praying] But after that Luke's descendants would really need to start looking for consorts farther than from the pages of their family's genealogy book.:p
  12. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Lots of different discussions! I think I'll focus on the Luke and relationships discussion for this post.

    Charlemagne19

    Yep, Luke was a forty year old virgin in Child of Wind's universe.

    Hey!!!! Only 37!!!!! :p

    I tend to think that Luke Skywalker was a man that had several strongly intimate relationships with certain women and that included Shira Brie.

    We'll agree to disagree about this, okay, C? I guess we'll have to do the same about why Luke shot down her TIE fighter. Sorry, but the Force told him she was a danger, and she was. She was ready and willing to kill him.

    As for wanting Luke to marry because he needs a partner, companion rather than another soul mate, I don't know. What he had with Mara was so special I don't know if Luke would ever be able to have another relationship with someone else. However, I would like for him to have some happiness in his life, so maybe if he met the right woman, it would work. I think Mara might want him to marry again and not spend the rest of his life alone. So, maybe. If Luke ever does remarry though, I'd like it to be a totally new character, definitely NOT Callista. Sorry, Striker,, but not Tionne either.

    MasterSkywalker86

    we can note that Luke didn't take advantage of Deena Shan, which implies he had that type of moral mindset.

    That's a good point, MS!

    CooperTFN

    Saba! You heard it here first!
    *achem*


    Oh, yes, the PERFECT girl for Luke! LOL!

    I'll do you one better - Lando. I've always disagreed with that "he wore my shirts because we were undercover" line. She was BSing the naive farmboy.

    So again, how would you explain that she could do that after their special mind meld through the Force in VotF? They learned everything about one another. Luke would KNOW that she had lied to him. So I don't think Mara did have a relationship with Lando, though she probably did have other relationships before she married Luke.


    Rouge77

    I doubt that Luke will remarry or even have any affairs in the future. Luke's no ordinary widower. Strictly speaking, any affair would be unfaithfullness towards her because she isn't really dead, but immortal now.

    Hmm.... I hadn't even thought of that angle. But then again, many of us believe in an afterlife. Some widows and widowers still choose to marry again even though they believe their spouses are still alive elsewhere.

    If they intend to give the ragged remains of the younger generation the limelight, then Luke having a romance and getting married would certainly hamper that goal.

    I don't think those "ragged remains" are ready to totally take the limelight yet anyway, R77. But I also agree with JK Dart that they still need to give Luke a story arc as I don't want them to leave him the way he is. Right now, I feel that Luke has regressed terribly. They need to build the character back up. Dart's right! He needs a major, POSITIVE story arc that leaves him in a better place.



    Ulicus

    ChildOfWinds posted:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And Ulicus, when Luke reflects on feeling bad about lying to Mara, I believe he was talking about when she said that he seemed very quiet. He told her he was worried about Ben, and that Jacen's actions bothered him, but he had really been pondering Lumiya's words to him and the way she had reached out to him when they sort of held hands near the end of Exile.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Yeah, that's cool - and most likely the reading the author was going for. Like I said, it can be stretched... but only if you want it to. I do, you don't. S'all good.


    That's one good thing about the way many things are written a bit ambiguously. Even people who have totally opposite opinions can still claim victory. ;)


  13. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    The difference between them and Luke is that Luke knows that Mara still survives and can even manifest in this world. Mara will never become gone to him in the same manner that Han would become to Leia if he would die. The connection will be stronger, as Luke knows that he and Mara can spent the eternity together. And Mara as a wife has always been a little jealous kind, so Luke has to take that to consideration too.;)
  14. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Luke chooses the Light but BY A HAIR'S BREADTH.

    He's got GREAT capacity for evil in him, just as he has great capacity for good.


    which is a little more than what Anakin did when it came down to it.
  15. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 9, 2000
    star 6
    Thanks, CoW! Welcome back to the SOS thread itself!! :D

    As you wish. *bows*

    Personally, I think Luke may be lying, and Mara may know he is - and tolerate it. They're both very forgiving people, and it's not as if Mara hasn't made mistakes in the past...

    But I can understand why you prefer to read it differently, and I think that canon should allow us both to retain our POVs. :D [face_peace]

    Well, I assume he'll do something in this novel. ;)

    See, I don't see any dichotomy between "Jedi knight" and "X-wing pilot". Jedi are knights with lightsabers who defend peace and justice in the Galaxy, and I think that they'd do that better from the X-wing cockpit than from the High Council Chamber, or even the bridge of a Star Destroyer...

    [face_mischief]

    *nods* :(

    Me too!

    Not a problem for me. As I already said, I'd like to see Luke and Tenel Ka get together. I think they make a cute couple. :D

    *ahem*, yourself. :p

    (shameless plug for idle fanfic)... but no, you didn't!! [face_laugh]

    I'd tend to agree with you - but I think she was doing it to hurt Luke, because he'd basically started blanking her. Although there was that impulsive kiss between him and Alex Winger just after The Last Command (and, after Tenel Ka, she's my other choice for a new relationship for Luke...)

    ;)

    - The Imperial Ewok
  16. J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    My own suspicion would be that the Triumverate could begin with a Jedi sitting on it as one of the representatives. Let's face it, the Jedi are the most ambiguous group in the galaxy atm. The Galactic Alliance funds them, provides them with top-of-the-range equipment; but while they have an oath of loyalty to the GA, they are so free to interpret it that they can basically be the instigators of a militant movement against the Chief of State! Pellaeon voices the view that they have acted as the conscience of the era, but where has this come from? After all, Luke's attempted to draw his Jedi out of politics altogether - including, I can only presume, as regards being the conscience! (Indeed, can this be seen as a root aspect of the GFFA's political decline?)

    No, I think the Jedi should change their views. I think we need to see Mon Mothma's Jedi dream come true; Jedi in every walk of life, Jedi embracing everyday life as builders, social workers, bank clerks, and even politicians. It's kind of like how the Reformation changed the Christian idea of vocation; no longer was a specialised priesthood the only way to worship God, now practical everyday life ("I'll black boots to the glory of God" as one man put it) was as well. Likewise, I'd like Jedi to recognise that, as the Force embraces every aspect of life, then every aspect of life has meaning to the Force; thus they should enter into everyday life. For the Jedi to remove themselves from politics imo is to do injustice to the Jedi ideals. I think it's the mistake the prequel Jedi made; they removed themselves, distanced themselves, and as a result they could be villified. (Of course, from a practical pov we know this won't happen; see Legacy.)

    Consequently, I'd love for Luke to be one of the three leaders of the Triumverate, with the Jedi acknowledging their role as representing the little people, as being the moral conscience of government. He'd be unwilling to take on this role, but that's precisely why I'd like to see him do it. Let's face it, as things stand what's his character arc now? Grieving widower who helps end his nephew's reign of terror. What next? What about the next arc? Um, um, let me see, what about... still-grieving-widower who, um, um, I know, gets paralysed into inaction by his still-continued grief and eventually overcomes it to defeat the bad guy... Oh, wait, that sounds familiar as an arc? Um, um, he... he remarries! That'll do as an arc! Nah, he needs something new, and politics is a good way ahead imo.

    Incidentally, on to the 'relationships' topic: Who was Deena Shan? And who was Alex Winger?

    CoW:
    So again, how would you explain that she could do that after their special mind meld through the Force in VotF? They learned everything about one another. Luke would KNOW that she had lied to him. So I don't think Mara did have a relationship with Lando, though she probably did have other relationships before she married Luke.

    Well, as regards that one, we don't hear that he doesn't. After all, Mara said what she did not knowing there'd be a Force-bond up-and-coming, and afterwards it's not relevant anymore. Nah, seriously, I do buy that line, but I can't help stirring the pot a little! :p

    TMcE:
    Personally, I think Luke may be lying, and Mara may know he is - and tolerate it. They're both very forgiving people, and it's not as if Mara hasn't made mistakes in the past...

    That's my view too. As you can see, btw, I eventually plumped for buying Revelation (partly due to your comments!); it wasn't as bad as some of the reviews have made it out to be imo.

    See, I don't see any dichotomy between "Jedi knight" and "X-wing pilot". Jedi are knights with lightsabers who defend peace and justice in the Galaxy, and I think that they'd do that better from the X-wing cockpit than from the High Council Chamber, or even the bridge of a Star Destroyer...

    To carry the metaphor on, the X-wing has become the Jedi's steed.

    Charles:
    Also, I tend to view Mara Jade having had an adult relationsh
  17. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Ah but is the Empire really the status quo, the accepted day-to-day reality which should be upheld? I think not. What the Rebellion exists to rebel against isn't a representation of the accepted consensus, it's a tyrannical upstart that overthrew it. There has to be more to the status quo than simply the government of the day or legality, the concept encompasses the entirety of society and the various moral values that arise from it.
  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7

    No, I think the Jedi should change their views. I think we need to see Mon Mothma's Jedi dream come true; Jedi in every walk of life, Jedi embracing everyday life as builders, social workers, bank clerks, and even politicians. It's kind of like how the Reformation changed the Christian idea of vocation; no longer was a specialised priesthood the only way to worship God, now practical everyday life ("I'll black boots to the glory of God" as one man put it) was as well.


    Unfortunately, that's a waste of their talents. Jedi are rare and a Jedi who isn't a Jedi Knight isn't using his full potential. If REGULAR people could join the Jedi Knights by just following the Jedi Way and believing in the Force, then maybe. However, REAL, Jedi?

    No.

    Also, I found Mon Mothma's statement stupid to be honest. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight and that means to eschew the trappings of power and Order to serve the Will of the Force. Honestly, LEIA was meant to be THE OTHER and is Luke Skywalker's heir. NOT BEN, LEIA.

    Politics was a preparation to become a Jedi, not the other way around.
  19. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    But that kind of Jedi would be more like the National Guard or Army Reserve. They couldn't be really up there with special forces, like most of the Jedi tend to be. I wouldn't mind it, but it would be practical really only when there would be an abundance of Jedi. Let's say 100 000 trained Jedi, of which you would only need 10 000 in active service. And that won't happen in Luke's lifetime, and because of what happens in Legacy, it can't happen for hundreds of years.

    The Jedi are a privileged group of people because of their special position as a pseudo-monastic militant order of mystics. To make things worse, the Jedi tend to have an overabundance of members from privileged parts of the larger society - thanks to KJA especially - and because they now can have families, can replenish their ranks without having to recruit so much outside of the order. So the Jedi can't really represent themselves as the representatives of the little people. Yes, Luke is a farmboy from Tatooine, but he hasn't been a common man for 40 years. I don't think he really has much dealings with ordinary people nor has had them for a long time beyond those that work in the Jedi temple or Academy on Ossus and those are mostly relatives of Jedi trainees. Luke's a great man, but can't probably anymore put himself in the position of ordinary tax payers with their ordinary troubles. There are probably movements in the society that can represent normal people better than the Jedi, who, naturally tend to have larger concerns than like the question does inflation eat out wage gains.
  20. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    J_K_DART :

    I think the Jedi should change their views. I think we need to see Mon Mothma's Jedi dream come true; Jedi in every walk of life, Jedi embracing everyday life as builders, social workers, bank clerks, and even politicians.

    I really loved that speech of Mon Mothma's, and I was sorry to see that nothing much came of it. As you said, the prequel Jedi made a huge mistake by distancing themselves from everyday life and everyday people. They became too far removed from the average person and no longer understood their problems. And, the people didn't know or understand the Jedi either. I think that's why Palpatine was successful with his negative propaganda of the Jedi. Everyday people didn't really know the Jedi, and one can become suspicious and afraid of what one doesn't know or understand.

    That's why I was glad that Luke was trying to make his Jedi more "Hands-on", more involved. In SotP, the Jedi were sent as mediators, and Luke planned at the end of VotF to have his Jedi get out into the galaxy, Masters with apprentices. That way, they were working among the people and young Jedi were getting on-the-job training at the same time. Unfortunately, then the dark times arrived, the prequels, and Luke's Order began to take on some of the flaws of the Old Republic Jedi.

    But I agree that Jedi can participate in all walks of life: attorneys, teachers, architects, accountants healers, and yes, politicians. But all or most of them can also have the combat training necessary to be defenders of the galaxy, so that in times of conflict, they can be called up, sort of like reservists, to serve.

    I like your idea of having a Jedi as one of the three member of the Triumverate, and I think Luke would be a good choice as that Jedi member. This would certainly give Luke a new a new, refreshing story arc and would add a new dimension to his character. I especially like your idea that the Jedi would represent the "little people" and would be the moral conscience of the government. Yes, I think Luke would fit into this role quite nicely! Now how do we get Del Rey or whatever publisher gets the contract to do this? ;)

    Charlemagne19

    Unfortunately, that's a waste of their talents. Jedi are rare and a Jedi who isn't a Jedi Knight isn't using his full potential.

    If McE and Jedi Ben think that just being an X-wing pilot isn't wasting Luke's talents, then I don't see how being a healer or a politician or an architect or a diplomat could be a waste of Jedi talent! Besides, as I said, I would expect that most of the Jedi would also be given combat training, lightsaber training, X-wing training, etc. so they could be available for "aggressive negotiations" as well. ;)

    Rouge77

    Luke's a great man, but can't probably anymore put himself in the position of ordinary tax payers with their ordinary troubles. There are probably movements in the society that can represent normal people better than the Jedi, who, naturally tend to have larger concerns than like the question does inflation eat out wage gains.

    While there are so few Jedi, you're probably right. But you must admit that it would be rather interesting to see Luke as a politician, right? ;)

    Considering what happens to GA in Legacy I would like the Jedi to keep a certain distance of it after LotF. Because if they, or just their Grand Master, would become closely involved in it's politics, it's eventual inability to overcome the Vongforming crisis and to survive the war could be seen partly as the Jedi's fault.

    People blame the Jedi already. As you said, it's a lose/lose situation for them no matter what, so they might as well be involved. ;)




  21. J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Charles; what Mon Mothma was trying to observe, though, was the following question:

    What do the knights do when all the dragons are dead?

    Del Rey's answer has been, variously: Find a better dragon, and, Become a dragon themselves.

    I think the question deserves some serious exploration. I think Mothma had a superb point; who says the Jedi have to be elite task-force-type people? Don't Jedi include healers and librarians, however forgotten those two may be? Why must every Jedi channel their Force-powers into battling galactic evil? Why not have a Jedi who works to shut down pirate organisations, a Jedi who adds security to a bank, a Jedi who helps combat poverty, a Jedi who works to educate underprivileged kids? Not grand work, but necessary, and as in-keeping with the Jedi Code as its possible to be. Yes, there are Jedi Knights; but they aren't just Knights, they are also Jedi.

    Furthermore, there's little reason why both couldn't be possible. Say, a Jedi simply files for a holiday - and goes off to save a random planet? A Jedi learns skills much-needed, and becomes useful in a situation facing him?
  22. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    J_K_DART

    Charles; what Mon Mothma was trying to observe, though, was the following question:
    What do the knights do when all the dragons are dead?
    Del Rey's answer has been, variously: Find a better dragon, and, Become a dragon themselves.


    And I really don't like Del Rey's answer. Del Rey's answer has managed to turn heroes into villains; turn Jedi into Sith or make questionable choices. Luke's made quite a few questionable choices himself, both in the vengeance killing of Lumiya, and in accepting some of Vergere's philosophy in DN (though I think Denning's interpretation of Luke's speech at the end of TUF is vastly different than what I got from it.) It's answer has destroyed many worlds of the galaxy too.

    I do think it's time to move in a different direction. I think it's time for heroes to be written as heroes again. I'd like to see more Jedi Adventure stories too.

    Why must every Jedi channel their Force-powers into battling galactic evil? Why not have a Jedi who works to shut down pirate organisations, a Jedi who adds security to a bank, a Jedi who helps combat poverty, a Jedi who works to educate underprivileged kids? Not grand work, but necessary, and as in-keeping with the Jedi Code as its possible to be.

    I agree completely! I'd love to see this. Plus, you seem to agree with what I said in my last post about all Jedi being trained in combat too, so when the need arises, the Jedi can, as you put it, take a "vacation" from his/her everyday job and go save a planet or two! ;)

  23. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    This is same interpretation of Luke that I've gotten from RotJ and a large chunk of the Bantam/DH EU. Luke isn't a saint on a pedestal who embodies all that is good and holy, but someone that struggles with the darkness and deliberately chooses the Light. That doesn't mean that he never has nor never will put a foot wrong, we've seen that he has on a few occasions.
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Charles; what Mon Mothma was trying to observe, though, was the following question: What do the knights do when all the dragons are dead?

    I think Post-Prequels, we'll never see the Jedi as anything but a Knighthood.

    Suffice to say, there's always evil to fight.
  25. Emperor_Time Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2007
    star 4
    I hope that if Luke remarries he does not have another son since if he does then that might get Ben kill off and he cannot be Kol and Cade ancestor anymore. [face_praying]