Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

In TUF they found out the answer to the Vong mystery was due to being stripped of the Force due to Zonama's predecessor. As it stands there isn't anything conclusive to Luke's decision to follow the potentium view in DNT. My theory is he was willing to practice Veregre's approach to a degree....maybe in a way to complete his understanding, but due to the recovery effort of the galaxy he didn't get the proper time to discard from following the philosophy til TJK

 

Blithe:

Thanks for posting that! It does indeed seem like mind control.








JediMatteus:

I guess I don't understand why "reconciliation" was necessary. It didn't really seem as though Luke and Mara were all that angry or annoyed with one another. It seemed more like two people who were single and independent coming to the realization that they loved one another, but being afraid to admit it to one another... maybe out of fear that the feelings weren't reciprocated? Or just a nervousness about a new level of relationship? Neither of them had a great track record in the romance department, you know.

And for Mara, it would be especially difficult because she has always had trust issues. For her to suddenly take down her self-imposed shields and let someone else in, was a truly huge step.

But even if you think a candid conversation between Luke and Mara was necessary and a good thing, I maintain that it should have been different. It shouldn't have involved pretty much an indictment of Luke's life for the past ten years, because that was flat out wrong. And Mara, of all people, certainly shouldn't have been lecturing Luke.

However, a suggestion from a close, caring friend, (Mara), that Luke might benefit from more of a balance between active Force use and passive listening to the Force for guidance, would have been fine, in my opinion. Saying that Luke and all he had done for ten years was "tainted", was NOT fine or correct at all.







MasterSkywalker86:

I didn't like Denning's decision to have Luke and the Jedi "open to a type of grey thinking" at all. To me, it wasn't an "interesting idea" at all. It was an out of nowhere idea that left me and many others scratching our heads trying to figure out how Luke's philosophy and what he was doing at the end of TUF could be so completely different from his philosophy and what he was doing at the beginning of TJK. And it was a very unwelcome and unnecessary change too.

I agree that Luke's Force philosophy wasn't "broken" at the end of the NJO, so Denning shouldn't have tried to "fix" it.

As I said though, Luke didn't "rig" the elections. Lando and Karrde were the guilty parties. And although my mind is fuzzy on the details, wasn't someone else actually trying to rig the elections and Lando and Talon were taking counter measures to make sure that person didn't succeed?

But then it ended up being Han and Brand who got rid of the Emperor for good, and that doesn't sit well with me.







Charlemagne19:

I agree that it definitely would have been out of character. As I said, Luke wasn't involved in rigging the elections though.




Charlemagne19:

It's supposed to be some sort of life-changing event for Luke, Leia, and Han, it seems. And, after this adventure, they will pass the torch to the next generation. It is also going to be written by Denning, and I am not fond of his Luke characterizations or the direction in which he has taken the SW galaxy and universe. Plus, since he was the one who gave Luke the Force injury in Apocalpyse which he says "should be a part of Luke's story arc", I'm very concerned that Luke will have a permanent disability and will never be as Force -strong as he was or able to accomplish amazing Force feats anymore. This, coupled with whatever will happen in Crucible, seems likely to push Luke into "retirement" .

To answer MS' question, I *don't* think Denning is capable of writing a "lighthearted" or positive story.








Tim Battershell:

I think they also tortured some of the Jedi joiners with whatever those machines were that they put on their heads or something. Jacen was playing around with the machine and they couldn't get any kind of reading from him, right? It *has* been a while since I read this trilogy, but some things are just so annoying or disturbing that at least the memory of something very negative remains with you.






SinrebirthSWC:

Are you referring to the Jedi Joiner torture or the rigging of the election discussion or both?






MasterSkywalker86:

I certainly agree with you there! The only "explanation" is that Denning wanted it in his story, so he put it there even though it defied logic and messed up continuity.






Tim Battershell:

Exactly right about the Potentium view!

But I don't think it was Sekotian either, as Zonoma Sekot was actually spouting the potentium philosophy, much to Luke's horror. It wasn't Vergere's viewpoint either, because she said there was no darkside, and Luke told Jacen and the whole Jedi Order that the darkside *does* exist. You're right that whatever Luke was following in TJK does not mesh with his beliefs in TUF. To me, it just seems to be part of "Denningverse" where the characters do lots of out of character things to serve his planned plots.

More tomorrow...

 

Those were just passive scanners, one doesn't torture with an EEG!

Sekot had modified its viewpoint - at least as far as accepting that evil deeds did exist, IIRC.

 

Well, Tatooine Ghost was pretty light hearted by itself. However, that light nature is somewhat sullied by later events. I mean, when I read TG, I get the sense that the main overarching message is that Leia should not be afraid of her heritage, that Han is right that Leia does not have to deny herself happiness, that having children is not going to be unleashing another Darth Vader upon the galaxy.

We all know how that turned out. It's like Denning decided to purposely spit in the face in the themes he himself laid out.

Also, something COW and other SOSers may be interested in: I've been reading some reviews for Kevin Hearne (guy who is going to be writing the Luke Skywalker rebellion book), and it seems most describe the book as very lighthearted, "feel-good", and very fun, as opposed to the dark and gritty fantasy that is trending right now (I love that stuff myself, but I can enjoy fun stuff too). While reading, I couldn't help but think that, if what I've read is accurate, Hearne would suit Star Wars very well, particularly in the Rebellion era.

I know most would prefer Luke in another era, but still, some small amount of consolation for you.

 

Child

I didn't like Denning's decision to have Luke and the Jedi "open to a type of grey thinking" at all. To me, it wasn't an "interesting idea" at all. It was an out of nowhere idea that left me and many others


at the time it was ok, cause it was something different but ultimately you know things would remain status quo and I figure this would only be a passing thought for Luke. That was until everything in the Legacy era decided to follow the more dark and gritty approach.


I said though, Luke didn't "rig" the elections. Lando and Karrde were the guilty parties.

I stand corrected, but as I mention in the post before I said I don't believe Luke would be the one doing the rigging but he would know about it

But then it ended up being Han and Brand who got rid of the Emperor for good, and that doesn't sit well with me.

Brand and all the jedi Force spirits are holding him in the netherworld prison. Palpatine's final body was on its way out either way, Han shooting him was actually a bad thing since he arrive there to Force transfer himself to Anakin's body. Although one must wonder if he did succeed how was he going to get out of there as a baby ? or what would he do as a sith infant.....clearly he was growing mad. Also it demonstrates what would have happen had Luke decided to kill when they first meet up in DE.

Still,it was the Skywalkers who broke his power in DE. Luke and Leia are the reason he won't try Force storm again, cause in DE 2 and EE he surely isn't the same anymore. Honestly we all could do without DE 2 and EE


I think they also tortured some of the Jedi joiners with whatever those machines


no they don't torture any of the joiners, they zap the dark nest gorog and Alaya to see if there is a response with the Joiners. This was after the dark nest wanted to murder Han, Leia, and Mara.

 

I still think it was silly.

Luke and Leia should have been the ones to defeat him.

 

agreed, you can only polish EE so much

 

Well, Han destroyed his body, but it ended up being that dude with the really, really long name who sealed him. However, I choose to read what's not written, and imagine that the collective Force energy of all Jedi who died in Order 66 entrapping Palpatine's essence. I seem to remember something about Palpatine "burning in light", or maybe "smothered by the light", and frankly, I think that's a fairly good image, Palpatine being literally suffocated by the light that he tried to snuff out (and there's also a somewhat comical image of Mace Windu and Yoda "getting back" at Palpatine). Having him killed by Luke, Leia and baby Anakin was much better (I still hold to the opinion that it's an even better ending than being killed by Vader in the manner that it was done), but hey, Star Wars EU is all about taking what you get and justifying it, it sometimes seems.

I also view the Palpatine of DEII and EE as completely succumbed to clone madness. So, it's not the shrewd, careful Palpatine we know, but an utter madman with unbelievable power. Frankly, though, I prefer the idea of Palpatine's Force essence destroying his clone body, rather than Carnor Jax poisoning him, but I suppose it could be both.

 

Krayt ended up just as much the worse for wear as Luke did, IIRC Mara's apparition's pep talk - did the battle with Abeloth permanently disable (or restrict) him in Legacy at all? And ISTR from posts/Wook that Krayt has Yuuzhan Vong implants to contend with as well.

 

Luke is already well into his seventies, probably. He should be slowing down anyway but, really, unless ALL OF THEM receive crippling injuries it's unlikely.

 

from my memory of EE it was implied as much that all the jedi spirits would keep him in check. Also after his death at the hands of Luke and Leia(and baby Anakin) there are a lot of implications that Palpatine wasn't the threat he used to be, that his power was broken. He either couldn't conjure Force Storm or knew Luke and Leia would step in, so he had the galaxy gun as a replacement for his power, his descent into madness, and the fact the Sith Holocrons lost any respect they had for him considering he was the Sith's savior.

 

Hi all - back from one week without internet - hope to catch up somehow soon

 

I think he is afraid too. I haven't read Plagueis, whihc is now proabbly the bible to understand Palps mind, but as I see hiw character, Luke would be so much he beasically doesn't understand!

And i think it works both ways too - there is a basic, almost sinful pleasure, in the thought of the hero going dark, or at least going to the border, that appeals to many people on a deep, psychological level - I think that's what DE is playing on.

I think what people disagree about, is whether you can bend the degrees of light and dark. If there is os only light and dark - what actions/thoughts do you place where - and if there are diferent shades of grey - where do you draw the line. Can you give in to one temptation and still be victorieous because you learned something - or what? The more people you bring in to the debate, the more different opinions you will get.

This sounds interesting, but I have the hardbacks. Could you quote a little, please?

This is definitely where we disagree, Child. Not in what you say - but in what comes out of the way you say it. Luke didn't resort to torture in order to get information - but he found himself in a situation that reminded of torture in a way (in an other way it didn't - Jacen didnøt give a damn about what was done to him and Tahiri just rose bored and walked away) and that he didn't stop immediately, due to many very good reasons. None of the reasons were enough, however, and he quickly stopped the seance. To deliberatelt torture someone is probably evil - but to find yourself in an impossible stuation where you consider what's happening before you act - that's not. Maybe Luke should have stopped the seance before the killick was in pain - but I can't agree what he did was evil, even if you label it the harshest way and call it torture. So torture - maybe, wrong- probably, but evil - certainly not! Be careful not to let labelling lead you yto wrong concusions - that's where black and white suddenly start to play into wrong hands.

I definitely agree - and here we again touch the thing, that no act (or technique for taht instance) can be taken out of it's context.

This is how I see it too. His hand was forced to a certain point, yet he soon decided this wasn't the right way to do it. But he still took the responsability for it.

The thing is, that to me who still lack TUF, it seems lke the next logical step out of the way Jacen and his ideas were paced up in the rest of NJO - and Luke held Jacen in very high regard in NJO, too high IMO. The last novels of NJO as a slow sliding towards exactly what we see in DNT - and actually the reason I stopped reading in the start of TUF 'cos I couldn't bear it anymore. And what I liked in DNT was that this philosphy was shown not to work out! Now, it seems taht I missed tyhe second half of TUF that rejects everything that was built up in the previous novels - but I insist that DNT wasn't out of the blue.

 

I didn't get the impression Palpatine was any weaker in the first DE. Quite the opposite, actually: the man was possibly more power than he had ever been. That's why I enjoy Luke's defeat of him: he wasn't beating an old, crippled old man, but the utter embodiment of the dark side. Luke, Leia, and Anakin snuffing out the greatest darkness the galaxy had ever known with their collective light is a pretty powerful gesture, in my opinion. I don't view the Galaxy Gun as a replacement of his power, simply a replacement of the Death Star, nothing more than a symbol of the power, both personal and political, that he controls.

In Empire's End, I like to think that he was rapidly disintegrating both because of Carnor Jax's intervention, and the fact that his newest clone bodies simply couldn't hold him.

 

luke is only like 64. not mid 70's.

Dark Empire Trilogy

im confused, i only have 2 tpb's in my collection, not 3.

 

That's what I'm saying, no he wasn't weaker in DE 1 in fact he was stronger than he had ever been that's fact. but in DE 2 and EE there is a reliance on his technology than his powers. Considering his claim as DS incarnate in DE 1 you would think he would use his power more(in DE 2& EE) but at the moment he had only one clone body and the power use would significantly aged his body. and he also knew that Luke and Leia could repelled this ability, so it would be a futile gesture. His power at the point of DE2 & EE in one way is more of an weakness than a strength due to Luke and Leia's actions, since now he was living off of borrowed time.

 

Kataja, I think this is one issue we will always disagree on even though we both love DNT Once you finish TUF it's very clear in the speech that Luke respects Jacen's views on the Force yet he still abides to the old teachings himself and understands them now in a further degree why the dark side exists. From DW,the Force Heretic trilogy, and TUF Luke is open minded to Vergere and Jacen's experiences but nothing indicated he was going to used them and he openly disagree with Vergere's viewpoints on those occasions.

 

Well, I spent an hour typing a response and lost it just as I was ready to post it. Don't have the time or energy to redo it today.

 

my condolences, i hate when those happen

 

I recommend everyone check out the Jedi Path.

Luke has some good moments in that.

 

i must have the the third of the trilogy somewhere.

 

i must have the the third of the trilogy somewhere.

 

Tim Battershell:

As I understood it, all of the Jedi Joiners were there (as well as Alema), and it was possible that all of them might have been tortured if the experiment turned out in such a way that what the Gorog felt, everyone felt. It just turned out that only the Gorog felt the pain, but the other Jedi *were* affected in another way. Alema was affected in the same way that the killik was.

But make no mistake about it, Cilghal *did* have to hurt the killik in order to conduct her experiment. Both she and Luke used the word "torture".

When Cilghal requested Luke's permission to conduct the experiment, here are Luke's thoughts about it:

"Luke swallowed and forced himself to look through the transparisteel doors at the two prisoners. There was a time when he would not even have considered such a request--- and when Cilghal would never have made it. But now that the Jedi had elected to embrace ALL of the Force, to utilize th dark side as well as the light, nothing seemed off limits. They deceived, they manipulated, they coerced. To be sure it was all done in the name of a higher purpose, to promote peace and serve the Balance, yet he occasionally felt that the Jedi were losing their way, that the war with the Yuuzhan Vong had turned them from their true path. He sometimes thought this must have been how Palpatine started, pursuing a worthy goal with any means available."

After the experiments started, the book says of Luke, "He wanted to look away, but forced himself not to. If he was willing to sanction torture, then he had to make certain it never became easy."

So, yes, Luke was uncomfortable in allowing this, but the point is, he DID allow it and he acknowledged that what he was doing *was* torture.

I think the first italicized paragraph above speaks volumes though. It shows that Denning either truly did NOT understand what happened in TUF or what Luke said and did in TUF, OR he purposely chose to ignore the previous book in order to write his story AND Luke, the way he wanted to do it. Luke and the Jedi definitely did NOT follow a philosophy that "deceived, manipulated, coerced" or tortured others in TUF. They did not use the dark side, and that was not what Luke was encouraging the Jedi to do.

I don't think Denning should have been allowed to write Luke and the Jedi this way. I think someone should have told Denning "NO!" when he wanted to do some of these very negative things to Luke and the rest of the Jedi.








instantdeath:

You're right that TG *was* sullied by later events. Denning had Leia decide that she didn't need to worry having children, yet he was the very one that killed two of her children and turned one of them to the dark side.

But I don't think TG was all that light-hearted, in that it had Leia see a vision of someone who looked like Luke as a darksider. Any book that shows a darkside Luke *isn't* light-hearted, in my opinion. And it doesn't make sense that Leia would decide to have kids after seeing that vision. If someone as good and heroic as Luke might go dark, I would have thought that Leia would have been extremely worried about a future child of hers going darkside, and that this would have definitely made her decide to *not* have children.

It's like Denning decided to purposely spit in the face in the themes he himself laid out.

Exactly!

Thanks for posting that, ID. It does sound hopeful. However, I would definitely prefer to have a "feel-good", fun, light-hearted" Luke story that takes place after Apocalypse. That way, I could feel that Luke might have a positive, happier future, after all the pain, loss, heartache and degradation he has endured during the last few series. But with Denning again writing Crucible, I fear that Luke is in for more of the same.








MasterSkywalker86:

But a new philosophy of the Force wasn't something different. We had already read about Vergere's different philosophy and Zonoma Sekot's philosophy, and the Potentium philosophy in the NJO. Luke had already rejected all of those. Why would he suddenly decide to adhere to a ridiculous philosophy that deliberately used the dark side of the Force? One that allowed Jedi to torture, coerce, manipulate, and deceive others? It just makes no sense, in my opinion.

I definitely agree about that! If they *had* to write DE, then they should have let the story conclude with Luke and Leia permanently defeating Palpatine. Sadly though, whenever a story makes money, the publishers and producers seem to feel the need to squeeze even more money out of it by adding sequels, or by padding a story to add say 6 more books to a series that should have been a trilogy.

You're right that, fortunately, the other joiners weren't affected by the torture, but they might have been. Luke and Cilghal weren't sure when they conducted the experiment. Fortunately, they found out that only the Gorog felt the pain, but the other Jedi *were* affected in other ways.







Charlemagne19:

I completely agree about that, C!

Luke is only about 62 at the end of Apocalypse, I think. In a galaxy where folks have an expected lifespan of 120 years, and where Jedi can have even more years, 62 isn't all that old. It's about middle-aged. I think Luke still has many good years left in him... unless, of course, he is written as permanently disabled by Denning in Crucible.







instantdeath:

That's a good way to look at it, ID, but I agree with you that having Palpatine killed by Luke and Leia would have been the better choice.







Tim Battershell:

Was Krayt as badly wounded as Luke was though? After the battle, Krayt immediately started walking off to resume his life. Luke, on the other hand, was extremely close to death. It was Mara who had to literally push him back toward life, and he still barely made it.

As for Krayt in Legacy, many years have gone by, and it seems that he has spent many of those years in healing trances and in stasis to heal as much as possible. It's possible that we'll eventually discover that Krayt's weakness wasn't just caused by the Yuuzhan Vong, but also by that fight with Abeloth. I think the future has already been somewhat changed, because Luke has met Krayt and he and other members of his order will likely meet him again. After all, it's the fact that Krayt exists that Luke returned to the land of the living. Yet, in the Legacy comics, it seemed very much like the Jedi didn't know about the existence of Krayt and the One Sith at the beginning of the series.








kataja:

Welcome back, K! You were missed!

See, that is something that has NEVER been true for me! I always prefer my heroes to be good, noble, honorable individuals who are models for others to strive for. I have never liked "grey" or darkish heroes who "push the envelop" about how far they can go in doing questionable things without crossing the line, or who even *do* cross that line. I'm not a fan of antiheroes or grey heroes or of heroes who do bad things. Now a hero who is tempted to choose the quick and easy path or who is tempted to do something grey or somewhat dark, but who makes the right choice and does the right thing in the end, is another story. I don't mind reading about heroes having tough choices as long as they make the right one. But I do have a problem with the supposed good guys doing evil things.

Both Cilghal AND Luke specifically used the word "torture" for what they did. Cilghal even had all the other healers leave the room because she knew it would be that bad and was actually embarrassed about doing it.

-

Well, I'm sorry, but I can't label torture anything else but evil, because I do really feal that it *is* evil.

And Luke and Cilghal knew that they were deliberately going to inflict pain on that killik. It wasn't something that just happened while they were observing brainscans. The point was that Cilghal asked Luke's permission to inflict that pain so she could conduct her experiment to see if the other joiners would feel the pain or not. Alema, who was in the Gorog nest had the same reaction to the torture. The other joiners didn't have the same reaction, but they were affected in a different way that resulted in them quitting the experiment.

And see, I disagree. Yes, we saw Vergere's philosohy represented. We saw the potentium and Zonoma Sekot's philosophies presented too. But Luke rejected them all. While Luke did highly regard Jacen, he also had some definite disagreements with Jacen's philsophy. There are a couple of discussions in TUF where Luke tells Jacen why he feels that he and Vergere are wrong.

The one thing that Luke came to agree with was that a Jedi wasn't destined to go straight to the darkside for being angry at times. Anger is a human emotion and no one can completely escape emotions, even negative ones. However, Luke came to believe that it's one's reaction to anger that makes a difference. If one hurts or kills someone in anger, for example, that's obviously completely wrong and dark. But if one's righteous anger spurs one to positive action, it can lead to good things. For example, someone who speaks to groups of young people about the dangers of drinking and driving after losing a loved one due to a drunk driver, can save lives.

More another time...

 

It's fair to say I'm not a fan of the "shades of grey" school of thought. As linguistic shorthand grey works OK, but philosophically? Grey = mix of good and evil without being either one entirely? How is that defined? It's a bad response to a valid problem: How do we evaluate human action and on what grounds can one person reasonably judge another? The grey school of thought likely arises in response to people's tendency to be condemnatory of each other, to play judge, jury and executioner while simultaneously absolving them of any such blame or offences! Arguably, it is this tendency that the line to understand more and condemn less is set against. If condemn a person is to effectively is to pronounce them irredeemable evil, beyond forgiveness and rehabilitation, then understanding works against that as it effectively invokes the questions: And you are so perfect yourself? You are willing to submit to the same high, harsh and perhaps unattainable standards you demand of this other person?

Applied to SW, people like to say they'd never do what Anakin did, or they'd never be taken in by Sidious but should they be so certain? I think not. The world tends to push people towards being colder and more judgemental - people make their choices, they have to live them tends to be the attitude of those whose lives are going well, whose choices have, with some luck, worked. If things are not going so well, people tend to have a different outlook, that if they had known then what they know now, they would have acted differently. In hindsight everyone is wise.

So then yes, you can have a rigid view of light and dark, with all the harsh self-righteousness and condemnation of others that it entails. Or you accept a less harsh, more human framework where intent and aim has a stake alongside what was done and the consequences of it. Far harder to navigate and considerably more complex, this requires individual actions to be carefully evaluated in terms of their good and evil and then as a larger set, then with the acts of others. It is arguably under this kind of framework ideas like forgiveness, redemption and rehabilitation work, alongside concepts like lesser evil and just war.

 

it just dawned on me that i have never read the 3rd tpb of Dark Empire. i guess i thought there was only 2 or something. weird.

 

http://fangirlblog.com/2011/05/luke-skywalker-must-die/

Here's an essay that really bothered me.