Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Do you consider SW to be a war story or a space opera a la the 1930s Flash Gordon serials? If the former then I can understand why it's a problem, but Lucas has been quite clear about SW' heritage as it were, being the latter!

    On deaths generally - a general counterpoint would be to ask why are the deaths in Allston's Wraith trilogy accepted in a way the NJO deaths are not? One answer is to say they arose from the story and were not foisted on the author in the way the NJO deaths were. Consequently they had a sense of authenticity that the NJO deaths lacked, being more artificial in how they were constructed.
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  2. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I'm reading the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and while a number of things stand out, there's one thing in particular I loved in Luke's section.

    Many things are crossing Luke’s mind now.
    His need to restore the Jedi fellowship as soon as
    possible, the pain he caused Han and Leia. Most of
    all, though, is the pain of wisdom. Wisdom gained
    through his own near damnation. He now knows
    more fully the glory of the Light Side of the Force
    because he has also known the Dark Side’s
    awesome power to twist and pervert. This is the nature
    of the Force, and those he will train must confront
    this themselves.

    "The pain of wisdom" is such a great way to describe so much of Luke's inner conflict over the course of his life. In many ways, he's burdened by his own gifts; being the last of the Jedi, being born the tyrant of one of the greatest tyrants the galaxy had ever known. As he learns so much, so quickly, it has to all be overwhelming, but even so, it's not enough, as he has to spend the years after Endor finding all he can about the Jedi.

    Whether Luke fell or not is irrelevant. He learned from Palpatine, spent days in the presence of a person who's described as the living personification of evil and of the dark side. Luke knows the dark side well, more than any Jedi should know it. But more importantly, he's seen the price of that knowledge. Seen what his father did, and knows very well what he's capable of, and due to his power, if he were to go over the edge, there likely wouldn't be anyone in the galaxy that could stop him. That's some serious pressure. "Pain of wisdom" indeed.

    I think this only makes it more ridiculous that Jaina, in LOTF, went to the Mandalorians to learn how to fight dark Jedi and Sith, instead of Luke, who has this invaluable experience that most other Jedi simply don't. But that's an entirely different conversation...
    Last edited by instantdeath, May 24, 2013
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  3. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    DarthJenari :
    Good point! Luke was already manifesting early on his intuitive ability to figure out Force skills all on his own. It's no wonder that he was able to learn so much in such a short time on Dagobah.


    Only our boy, Luke! :)

    Luke has been shown to be very good at this throughout the EU too. Look at how he figured out how to expand on that trick of being able to "hide" in the Force that Jacen and Ben were using. Luke figured out how to hide from everyone except Ben. Everyone else thought that Luke was dead, including Jacen, but Luke let Ben know that he was fine.

    As I posted once before, even Denning once said that Luke is able to create a lightside skill to counter any dark side trick that is thrown at him. That's pretty amazing really. Look at how he came up with that wall of Light to defeat Palpatine in DE, for example.


    That *was* a very clear confirmation that Luke was more powerful than Jacen... by quite a lot. Jacen was literally stuck to his chair and couldn't do a thing about it. Arrogant Jacen was certainly brought down a peg or two by that demonstration of Luke's mastery of the Force!


    That does seem to be true!









    Skaddix:
    I'm really looking forward to seeing this also. I hope we find that Luke has established a stable, flourishing Jedi Order that is respected and appreciated by the people of the galaxy, and that he avoided making the mistakes that the PT Jedi made.








    kataja :
    That's what I hope they'll do, but I want them to only use the EU up to and including SQ. After that, things went downhill very quickly for the galaxy and characters in general, and for Luke in particular.



    Hmmm... I guess I don't agree with that... I could see Yoda being nervous about the situation, knowing that Luke was pretty much their best and maybe only hope for defeating Palpatine and Vader and for restoring the Jedi; worried about just how much was riding on one young man.

    However, I think it's unfair to Luke to say that Yoda worried about him because he was Anakin's son. Why should that make a difference? Yes, Luke has Anakin's power potential in the Force, but Luke is *not* Anakin. He doesn't have Anakin's quick temper and anger management issues. He isn't easily manipulated as Anakin was. Just because Luke is Anakin's son doesn't mean that it's a huge risk for Yoda to train him.

    The sins of the father are not automatically the sins of the son. Just because a person is a thief or a killer or a rapist doesn't mean that the son or daughter of that person is going to become a thief or a killer or a rapist as well and needs to be treated with suspicion and caution.

    I really think that Yoda was planning all along to train Luke if Luke was willing to become a Jedi, but I think he needed to be sure that Luke really wanted to do this and that he would take the training seriously. Way back in RotS, Yoda said that he and Obi-wan would train the twins when the Force let them know that the time was right.







    MasterSkywalker86:
    Yes, while the OT Jedi weren't bad people, the OT Order did have flaws and did make mistakes. Arrogance was one of them.

    I think that would be likely.



    More another time...
    Last edited by ChildOfWinds, May 24, 2013
  4. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Good comparision, Ben! It's not that characters mustn't die - indeed ANH is full of death - but they're integral to the story - or are made so! Then again, it's a hard thing to measure, isn't it. In general, any dramatic turn of the story demands some good will from the audience - and to be honest, I'm not sure we're that good at offering that good will...

    This is such a great point I!!!! You're right - in the perspective of Anakin's fall, even Luke going willingly over to the DS wcould be consiered a necessity - a demant to explore a ground that no ne's done before, but that history has proved was necessary!

    The sad thing, of course, is that EU has always been more interested to give new, dramatic stories, than to continue to develope the obvious possible ones that the character development could lead to. The wisdom Luke gained in DE was ignored by most - and dragged down to a ten year failure by others.

    .
    I still don't get how you can say that, Child :eek: Not when stories like Crystal Star, JAT and the Callista trilogy is included. No, if they're to drop the EU - let them drop it alltogether - BUT take inspiration from the good stuff in it.

    [face_thinking]Correction. Let them include Shadows of the Empire, Truce at Bakura and Mindor - and then pick Mara from the rest together whith a bit of this and that.:p



    What do you mean? You think it's unfair of me to say taht Yoda could have been worried because Luke was Anakin's son? Or you think it was unfair of Yoda if he was worried because Luke was A's son? If the latter, we completely agree - but I still could see Yoda be worried - and seen in the light of what happened, I could sympathize with him, even if it was unfair. Yoda's a character in a chain of events with a terrible responsability on his shoulders and some serious failures in his luggage- not a viewer who sits in his moviechair and can have the full picture.

    I think so too - but I also think he'd be a fool if he wouldn't worry like hell about what was the right thing to do! He MUST have had doubts!
  5. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I'm not so sure it's that so much as story-telling skill - why is Ton Phanan's death so invoked as an example of a death done right? Because it is. No one wants Phanan brought back to life because he had a perfect exit and we know Face and the Wraiths will wreak havoc on Zsinj and the Iron Fist. It isn't the cruelly nihilistic death of Anakin Solo, which practically killed any sense of optimism in the late post-ROTJ EU, nor the shock value death of Chewie. It isn't marketed as a "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING FOREVER" event, it just happens out of nowhere, whacks the reader and that's all that is needed.
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  6. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Yes, it's a story-telling skill - but can you out your finger on where the difference lies? Yes, Chewie's death wa s a shock effect - but it was also extremely epic and had great impact on the other characters. Yes, Anakin's death killed an optimism - but wasn't it partly because the audience expected too much - a number of seven main protagonists was crowded already - and to expect them all to survve a war where one of the ambitions from the editors was to give some realistic scent to it?

    I don't say I'm gung ho for Chewie's and Anakin's deaths - but I think it's not easy to write a good death. And I claim that we as audience, are very hard to please!
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  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I think really NJO set the odds against it in both those cases:

    Chewie: We don't know how to use the character so let's kill him. BFC really counters that assertion.

    Anakin: Yes, let's make him the most appealing and then kill him off. Rowling got a whole load of grief for doing precisely this with Cedric Diggory in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and it was deserved, same applies here.

    Though, the realism claim of NJO is highly selective at best - the only realism we see invoked is realism as negative. People don't support each other, they murder and betray. Governments are unreliable and suicidal and no, you can't simply attack the enemy either! One look at the war strategy displayed in NJO and the biggest mystery remains why the Vong didn't win - it was only when DW played the get-out-of-jail-free card of them having been of finite number and having spent the bulk on their early victories that the galaxy had a chance.

    On the one hand it set up a threat beyond individuals to deal with but then also decided that the correct actors to deal with such a threat should also be beyond incompetent - the NR. Which craps on much of the work done by the Bantam of having the NR be just that, a worthy successor or better to the Old Republic.
  8. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I don't argue against you, Ben. But that wasn't the point I was making either. Then agan, kriff my point - it's out of topic anyway :p

    So, anyone else planning to read Crucible? My hopes aren't high, but what the heck - it's a new story with Luke = I'm in :cool:
  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I was going more for further explanation!

    I generally agree good death scenes are hard to pull off, which is reason enough to not be cavalier about it. Actually, the best ones I've read recently were in Feist's Magician's End.
  10. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    We agree Ton Phanan's death was good too [face_mischief]

    But just this morning I read this under the headline 30 things you didn't know about ROTJ:
    Here we get the same idea that caused Chewie's death. And Lucas' desicion NOT to do so, is said to be based simply on money. What else could it be? Oh, yes, Lucas changes his mind all the time. We all are guilty of these accusations.

    And just before I clicked in here, Adm. Nick was stating (on the Star Wars In the Shadow of Yavin #5 thread) that using original characters like Luke, Leia and Wedge doesn't exactly make him root for the outcome of a fight. Does he make a valid point? Absolutely. But it goes completely against our complaint of NJO. For all I know, the editors and authors tried counter complaints like this with their new project. Only, half of the fanbase didn't think it worked out. The other half (or soemthing like it) think it did.

    Conclusion? Making up a good story is hard as hell! And being many cooks doesn't necessary make it better. But we fans are not too kind either. For all I know, Lucas might have chosen Han to live in ROTJ because at the end of the day, when he listened to his intuition, he thought that was the right thing for the story. Just like he chose to let Luke stay with his friends instead of wander off to the sunset and solitude. But do we credit him for that? Nope. He made the descions to earn more money, of course he did.
  11. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Killing off Solo could have worked but only due to what the preceding movies had done with the character. As to changing your m,ind, yeah everyone does it but to what consequence? It's one thing to alter a character's final fate in the final movie as it affects nothing, as opposed to say deciding your hero's father who becomes the series biggest and most popular is really the hero!

    I happen to think NIck's wrong over in the Star Wars 5 thread, which gets me to the next bit:

    The question is: What is defined as "good" ? NJO posited that greater jeopardy and death was required, but I have to question that, especially as it's become clear over the last decade that what sells are Luke, Han and Leia but not necessarily when they're 90! That suggests to me people outside of Lit, if they read the EU, read it for a continuation of their favourite characters - which they have no interest in seeing being killed off! The lack of jeopardy, far from being a flaw, is expected and even wanted. Why? Because other stories do that angle far better than SW can! People get that from those stories and then swing back to SW for lighter, more enjoyable fare.

    Somewhere along the way, it got forgotten that SW was created, not as a literal, grim, galaxy war story, but as an invoking of the 1930s serials of Lucas' youth. Tales of adventure and derring-do, heroes and villains. It does not need, for instance, to be Battlestar or Aliens or Babylon 5 - and it's certainly tried to ape all 3 in the last 14 years to no good effect. SW needs to be more confident in its own identity, but that's also horrendously muddled for the same timespan. And the effect on characters like Luke? They become square pegs in round holes.
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  12. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    instantdeath :
    That *is* a great quote!

    I think he did was making Luke and the Emperor stronger than most Jedi, probably because, as Luke told Leia, "The Force is strong in my family." And Veitch *was* writing a comic book story. They do tend to be strong on the superhero, power thing.

    Yes, I think that might even have been what Veitch was actually going for. However, I don't think the comic book format is right for this kind of story which really should focus on character and motivation. Comic books are better for the battle stories. If this story *is* ever done as a novel, I would like it to be written in first person, from Luke's perspective, so we can be privy to his thoughts, motivations, and goals.

    It did say that the more Luke learned about the dark side, the more he was repulsed by what he learned. And doppelganger isn't darkside as that Jedi book in the vault confirms. It is, after all, just a form of illusion. Luke learned plenty of those from the Fallanassi.








    kataja :
    Well, if Yoda was worried about attachments, why would he choose to have Luke and Leia grow up in regular families where they would make attachments to parents/guardians? Why didn't he just keep the children with him and with Obi-wan and train them right from infancy? They each could have taken one twin so they wouldn't become attached to one another.

    I really think that because of the events of the prequel films that some of the rules and things that the PT Jedi did were wrong and needed to be changed. I think the no attachment rule may have been one of them.

    As I've said before, I don't like the kind of thinking that the son/daughter is doomed to make the same mistakes as his/her father. I think that's very unfair and wrong.

    I really think that Yoda planned all along to train Luke and his seeming reluctance was a performance on his part. He himself had told Obi-wan that the Force would bring Luke and Leia to them when the time was right... The time was right.








    MasterSkywalker86:
    And I would really like to see Luke demonstrate those abilities more often!

    I agree.

    Perhaps. We don't know for sure what would have happened though. Thankfully, Luke managed to be successful in being the catalyst that led to the fall of the Empire and in redeeming his father.

    I completely agree with this! I hope we'll find that Luke DOES allow attachments in his Order in the ST.

    I think it was better than the comic book.

    I really love that explanation, MS! It makes perfect sense! And I do think that Yoda was always planning to train Luke.

    I agree with this too, MS.


    More another time...
  13. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    You keep bringing this up, and I know Lucas has said those serials were one of the inspirations he had for Star Wars. I certaintly can't speak for Flash Gordon never really having seen it, but does it contain scenes where the burned out corpses of Flash's adopted parents are shown onscreen? An epsiode where Flash's best friend from childhood is killed?

    These are not light, fluffy subject matters.

    Star Wars also stopped being Lucas's sole creation when he started tapping authors on the shoulder to write additional stories, all tales that he signed off on.The Battle for Endor TV special for instance contained some of the darkest story telling in the entire Star Wars universe. Why was that approved?

    I think that too many people want to fit Star Wars in a box. It is "A" and it can never be anything else but "A". It can never grow, never adapt, never change.

    When it came time for Lucas to make the Prequels did he adopt this lighthearted take on the universe that you are arguing Star Wars is suppost to be? I'd say he didn't. He killed Qui-gon, he killed Shmi, he killed Padme, he had the hero leave Anakin's limbless, burning body to suffer a horrible death.

    None of that had anything to do with NJO yet was about as dark as you can get imo.
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  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Robi,

    Do you think a grim, gritty, realistic war story in 1977, as the US was reeling from 50,000 dead in Vietnam - so knowing the real, nasty, vicious reality of war very well - would have worked? I think you've focused on the wrong aspects and drawn the wrong conclusions.

    Those corpses on Tatooine, are shown for seconds at most - tone and execution is everything, where ANH was fleeting but didn't mitigate the horror it just suggested plenty instead of showing explicit immolation of pilots over the Death Star for instance, NJO pretty much gloried in it. Maul's quick stab of Qui-Gon in TPM? Another case in point - NJO would have gone for fountains of arterial spray and slo-mo impalement.

    There's been a serious SW story done anyway, it was Shatterpoint - it was dark, grim, very good but do you really want SW to be that all the time? That was the error NJO made, it thought everyone wanted ESB all the time because ESB regularly topped the lists for best film but in story terms? Wrong conclusion to draw ESB doesn't work on its own and, under the criteria you've set up, isn't dark enough! The rebels get away, what kind of idiot is Vader? He can't even kill his own son properly.

    Also, where the PT was concerned, certain things were set up anyway - no one expected a happy ending because it was known to end with Vader and the Emperor running things, yet even there - despite Lucas being excessive on Vader's immolation and suit creation scene for me - the final montage is decidedly optimistic. There is a lightness there that you don't seem to wish to recognise.

    And for all that SW has a flexibility to it, it cannot have infinite flexibility. It has to define itself in certain respects and those respects will limit how far it can change before it just doesn't become SW to the people who buy the stories. Arguably, that process we've been watching for the last decade.

    Frankly, if you think I should be reading or watching SW and recoiling with horror and fear because it's so dark or I should be more serious, forget it. I suppose I should, on the same basis, when playing Mass Effect, have Shepherd agonise over the people and beings he's killed?

    That I'll save for when reading accounts of actual hell on earth, like say the battle of Stalingrad in WW 2 that saw hundreds of thousands die.
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    MasterSkywalker86:
    I think that may have been what Yoda was trying to do. I believe that Yoda *was* committed to training Luke, but he wanted to make sure Luke understood the importance and seriousness of being a Jedi and that Luke needed to be less impatient. I think Yoda was using a bit of psychology on Luke to let him think that Yoda wasn't one bit interested in teaching Luke and that Luke didn't have what it takes to be a Jedi. That way, Luke would try doubly hard to prove Yoda wrong. Luke would take Yoda's lessons more seriously that way, and keep his mind on the task at hand.








    kataja:
    I think you put that very well, K, and I agree with you.









    DarthJenari:
    And that's not like Luke at all. He's a humble guy, and I don't think he'd ever feel that the Skywalkers were the only important Jedi and the only ones who could lead the Jedi Order. Even if he would have had a vision with Ben as the Jedi Grandmaster, he would have known that "always in motion is the future", so one can't see all possible futures. I really feel that Luke has been very badly characterized in most of the books after SQ. That's one of the big reasons why I wouldn't mind seeing the EU slate wiped clean after SQ. I'd just take that scene as a mistake by the author. Which book was it in anyway, DJ?







    Nobody145:
    I'm not sure I understand, N. Is it that you didn't want Ben to go with Luke because it gave Ben too much emphasis; too much screen time?

    I was actually glad to see Ben go with Luke. I liked some of the early father/son interaction, and I liked when they worked together. However, I wasn't really all that thrilled with all of the Ben/Sith girl angst/drama and Luke and Ben at odds over her.


    Which is true, but that was the fault of the writers. Having Luke away from Coruscant was the perfect time for the authors to have the other Jedi 'back home" step up and shine and actually DO something constructive. Instead, we got another fractured Jedi Order in which poor Kenth ended up getting killed by a fellow Jedi Master, and the whole Order was somehow imprisoned inside the Jedi Temple TWICE! Ridiculous!

    And if the other Jedi didn't accomplish anything or shine with Luke and Ben both gone, it certainly wouldn't have happened if we had one Skywalker on Coruscant and one in Exile. There would have been even less chance that other characters would have been given better roles.

    As an aside, I'm still disappointed that Artoo didn't go with Luke and Ben when Luke was in exile. Luke and Artoo used to be constant companions. For most of the Del Rey books, they have hardly ever interacted. I hope that we'll see Luke with Artoo or with Luke's son or daughter in the ST.



    I'm really disappointed that the new animated series won't be about post-RotJ Luke. :(

    I truly hope that's not true!




    Oh, yes! I really hate having all of these PT Jedi coming out of the framework! That's another thing that I hope the ST will fix. Yoda said that Luke would be the last Jedi when he was gone, and I hope he was right that there were no others hiding out in the galaxy. I want Luke to be the last of the Old Order and the first of the new one.

    It's even more annoying that these PT Jedi never lifted a finger to help Luke. That's why I really hate K'Kruhk. Not only didn't he help Luke all of those years, but as soon as Luke was gone, he just took over the Jedi Order. That's so WRONG! Plus, it makes no sense that a PT Jedi who was pretty old before Luke was born, would be alive long after Luke was dead.








    Jae-Dec:
    I agree with you, JD! I also miss the adventure-style SW story. Now, everything is about the Dark side and tons of Sith all over the place. I'd really like to see more stories about Luke and his Jedi on missions/adventures, helping people throughout the galaxy and solving problems and negotiating conflicts between groups of people or worlds. I'd like to see smaller stories that don't always involve the fate of the entire galaxy and super villains.


    I completely agree about all of that!
  16. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5

    Your willing to forgive ever single character death in the films, while crucifying every single character death in the NJO forward. Your willing to forgive every sinlge dark moment from the film, but break down every one from the EU in minute detail.

    I'm not saying that the films didn't have light moments or an overall sense of hopefulness - I'm just saying that those elements are not all they had. Yes, you(as in you the film goer, not Ben in particular) should take a moment and think about how horrible it was that Anakin murdered the Jedi Padawans, or the Tusken children. Thats the effect the scenes are suppost to have.

    But it is still fiction. There is no need to view it the way you would the battle for Stalingrad - but when an author does introduce something more intense I think its more than a little unfair to shake a fist and tell them they don't get what Star Wars is. It is a subjective experience at best - while I can be perfectly happy with a story like ROTJ where the heroes escape completely unscathed I can also see where that might not constantly work for a franchise with a thirty plus year history, one that has published thousands of stories.

    Troy Denning likes his over the top violence and gore. I agree that I think he should tone it back. But I don't beleive for a second that your issue is really with the gore. I think it is kinda a scapegoat issue. There was no gore involved in Chewie's death, yet it is held up as every bit as negative a death as any of the others and is likely the most critcized death the EU has ever seen.(Of course Mara is up there as well.)

    The issue is with character death in general, and there is a double standard being applied. I seriously doubt you will walk out of Episode 7 and be pleased with the film if Luke, Leia or Han die in the service of advancing the story of their children, not unlike how Obi-Wan or Yoda died in the OT. And I would imagine the chances of that actually happening are pretty slim, but anyway.
  17. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Nope. I can analyse the entire lot but what you're not getting is it will be a case by case basis - Dev Subwarra? Works. Sandskimmer and Phanan? Works. Madine? Works. Chewie? Weak, transparent but does at least have the life debt discharge element. Anakin Solo? Easily the most vicious creator move in the EU.

    Uh... Not exactly. The slaughter in the kids in the council chamber is indeed nasty, but it's implied and my inclination at that point is for ObiWan to kill Anakin there and then. As for the Tuskens, it starts off very good then we have Anakin's confession and he gets a hug? Huh? What the hell is that?

    It's perfectly fair Robi when I've spent both time and money on their work. I can see a lot of what NJO is going for but it doesn't follow through on its ideas all the way, it selectively invokes the realism of war as negative, while omitting anything that isn't. It allows the Vong to rampage across the galaxy and the merest fought back that hurts them is deemed an evil act by the heroes! If SW was the war story you appear to want it to be, the attack Sernpidal wouldn't have been the exception, it would have been the rule.

    But I'm confused as to exactly what you're wanting from SW EU at this point - first you said it's a serious business, now it's just fiction. If we look at wars, yes, lots of people die but equally many also survive it and that is in danger of being overlooked by the death demand.

    I would reckon both Anakin, Mara and Jacen have overtaken it.

    The question is: Is the rationale advanced for the character death credible? Does it work within the overall story? NJO doesn't work for me as a story point blank, oh TUF's a great conclusion and there's 8 books with good bits in them, including SBS, but the overall tale? Incoherent, convoluted mess with no real plan to speak of - which is fine, you can make it up as you go along - but NJO always laid claim to having one thus I expected more from it. Therefore that the characters fail to work for me on a conceptual level shouldn't be a surprise.

    As to ep 7, I'll likely see it on blu-ray if the format's still going due to how cinema prices are going. I'd be surprised if it has much in the way of character deaths because they're expected and Abrams has a tendency of liking to defy expectations.
  18. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    for some of us on this thread it is relevant though ;) Especially when they sell it as Luke chooses to fall to the DS, when in reality Palpatine influences him to the point he becomes a mind slave while he's undercover. Choosing to fall willingly or being controlled seem to have the same DS effect but the end results mean salvation or damnation of the soul. Leland Chee has been over it before(the official LFL continuity guy) and Luke almost fell.

    it seem like to be an overall EU planned thing as well, I remember there was a Wizard article back in the early-mid 90's where they interview Katy Tyers about TaB. She made a comment about Luke's power on not moving Star Destroyers yet but gradually growing to that point. So it seems like LFL told Bantam what is possible for a Skywalker to do with the Force. DE came out in 92 and TaB 94-96(IIRC), so it doesn't seem that far fetched with the other stuff they did in Bantam books.

    The narrator captions could and should have included more, but I think a book would have been the best way to go about it. You get more into the thought process and motivations of the characters.

    the movies proved that the future isn't preordained twice. Anakin could have killed Palpatine and be alive if he stayed in the LS but he fell to the DS. Luke could have killed his father and Sidious had he completed his training but he chose to redeem Anakin. All of these scenarios happen out of choice not fate....

    yes, like wall of light or becoming a being of light.

    Well he would have been fully capable of doing it when fully trained, although I think he wouldn't killed his father if good still remain in him.

    yes

    Madine works but I thought it was odd due to the cicumstances of the plot. Ganner's death was probably the best one out of the entire NJO-Legacy run. I felt like Pelleaon would have been killed off or died off sooner or later but the execution of it was all over the wall like Omas, Jacen, Mara, Anakin etc. All I can say is when I think of Star Wars, it should be fun and epic with a mixture of light, sprinkle with some dark moments here and there like the OT. That's what this franchise should be at it's core. it's interesting though to hear that others have different perspectives than the norm

    how bad are the prices ?
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, May 27, 2013
  19. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Good point, Child! My immediate answer would be that adopted children usually love their stepparents, but they also tend to look out to the world, aware that there is something more. Dunno how aware Yoda was of anything like this, though. Maybe he just had to take what he could get. Also, if he didn't know whether the children would ever be trained, the first step would be simply to hide them.

    We agree about that, all right!

    Please, who do you make this point to? I quite agree it's unfair wrong! But does that make it unlikely in a plot? I'm talking about what considerations would explain a certain charcaters actions of comments. Not about what's ok or not.

    .
    [face_laugh][face_laugh]

    Hey! A perfect chance for me to sell my most recent theory: that those carbon frozen guys under Daala's Palace in FOTJ were Old Jedi. :D Imagine Luke being the one to thaw K'Kruhk up! [face_batting]
  20. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    About £12.50-15 per person now - that's the price of a new blu-ray!
  21. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I was introduced to Star Wars with Phantom Menace, so JarJar might have altered my perspective, but I always thought that Star Wars was actually supposed to be aimed for kids. (Like Harry Potter was)
    MasterSkywalker86 likes this.
  22. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Happy Memorial Day everyone

    And if the movie retain an 98% fresh tomato on rotten tomatoes ?
  23. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    @Child of Winds I honestly couldn't tell you for certain. Best guess I can make is that its between Omen and Allies. :(

    Just finished re-reading Truce at Bakura and I again have to praise Luke's characterization in it. There's a lot of doubt there, but also come solid confidence. I note it because its so early in his career, but unlike other times (We were just talking about this problem in NJO) Luke came off as if he knew what he was doing. Went through the novel looking for answers, taking names, that sort of thing. And the ending where he decides to face the darkness every single day is again one of the best in the EU.

    Also started reading Destiny's Way again and we were also talking about how ridiculous it is that Luke, as a seasoned Jedi Master would still run into incidents like the one with Lumiya (In which he killed her and was apparently tainted, due to believing she'd been responsible for Mara's death) is a little ridiculous. When Luke confronts Vergere during one of their meetings and she talks about anger, Luke notes that if she meant to tempt him into falling she'd have her work cut out for her. Why? Because he was a Jedi Master in the prime of his life, and had managed to resist both Vader and The Emperor when he was a half-trained boy!
  24. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @DarthJenari,
    It's amazing how much one series overlooked what the predecessor did
  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    £12.50 per person, transport probably £5 per person, food is probably £5-10 per person at cinema prices so we're getting to £45! Going to have be something bloody spectacular to justify that sort of spend for a couple of hours! £45 is what I pay for a big Absolute-size comic hardback!
    MasterSkywalker86 likes this.