Lit Stepping Into A Larger World: A Metaphysical and Philosophical Discussion of the Force

I honestly thought Mace meant the Jedi had just gotten rusty, as their first serious opponent in decades if not centuries was Darth Maul. Busting up megacorporations (Stark, Trade Federation) isn't the same as fighting in a galactic-scale war.

 

What? By whom?

All I remember is them being accused of being bad movies that demystified the Force. (Though they didn't actually "demystify" the Force at all, that was a common complaint...)

I certainly don't see we're going to see the Force portrayed as being any less powerful or overt than it was in the prequels. Though that would be an interesting direction to go in.

 

I'm really hoping they don't just ignore that line completely.

 

Me too.

 

What do people think of how the Force seems to have effected the life on the planet Voss?

 

I think this thread is a good example. http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...rce-powers-to-be-done-in-the-future.50019966/

 

Right. I guess I just disagree, then. That thread doesn't have anyone accusing the prequels of having made the Force too powerful and prominent. Just a couple of people who don't want it to be get any more powerful or prominent.

And there's fifteen votes, total. Hardly representative of the mass of a target audience the ST has.

Honestly, until you brought it up, I could count on one hand how many times I'd seen people accuse the PT of going too far with the Force. And no fingers.

 

What do you mean?

 

That Lucas finally outgrew it in the Yoda arc of TCW.

 

No, Lucas is not a decanonized dark side denier.

"The growing dark side endangers us all." - Yoda, TCW S6:E11 Voices

 

Oh I thought that's what the Cosmic Force was.

 

Once again: what do you mean?

A suggestion: remember that not all of us have seen the all the seasons of TCW because I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Yeah, tbh I don't understand how Stover (I assume) is indirectly being called a dark side decanonizer when it, like, appears in his books. I guess he's only a dark side decanonizer in certain books. But then you'd think that inconsistency would give cause to question if the problem is in the book or in the interpretation.

Not really getting this Orthodox zeal that leaps at shadows.

 

You mean like how Filoni Lucas "finally outgrew it in the Yoda arc of TCW" when it, like, appears in the Yoda arc of TCW?

( And it was "decanonized dark side denier", not "dark side decanonizer". )

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!

 

No clue

 

I see no difference in the concept of the Unifying Force as it appeared in the SW novels with the concept of the Cosmic Force as it appeared in the last three episodes of TCW. It's important to keep in mind that Vergere's theology and the Potentium view are not the same as the "Lucasian Qui-Gonism" Yoda and Ben come to accept (I love the epic Marxist-sounding term I just coined ).

 

Vergere's theology? Lucasian Qui-Gonism?

Assuming there is such a thing, they're one and the same.

 

Both take a radical step back from the orthodox manichaeistic dark side-light side/Sith-Jedi absolute dualism, but I'm not so sure they are the same, at least not in practice. Maybe I'm wrong and I need to dust off my Traitor.

 

I'd argue that the Force was never about strict Manichean dualism and that the Cosmic/Unifying Force -- or the metaphysics that implies -- appear day one, and even more explicitly in The Empire Strikes Back.

As for Vergere's theology, I don't think she has one, at least not something which she espouses in Traitor. She mostly sticks to the Socratic method, and she prefaces any claim by accusing herself of lying -- she speaks in koans. What Vergere says in Traitor isn't really important compared to what Jacen takes away from it. What she says is true (and a lie), from a certain point of view. The Cosmic Force, as represented by the Father in Mortis -- "You and I are tied together, and your strength runs through me," Father tells Son -- is beyond the Living Force and its sides. And Luke and Jacen conclude that is what she was about in The Unifying Force. Vergere's claim that there is no dark side seems to be made a lot more important among fans than it is in the actual novel. I think the import of what she said can be determined by its repetition, and the non-existence of the dark side in the sum of the novel isn't particularly important. What does Jacen take away from the claim?

 

What appears explicitly in TESB is the duality of the Force. We know from Rinzler's books and other sources that this is no mistaken impression, and that the Force was dualistic from the actual "day one".

But what do fans take away from it, if they feel compelled to suggest that Lucas has somehow outgrown the dark side, despite the fact that he calls it part of the core of the Force? Does the Socratic method really depend on spreading falsehood? And why should Lucas' name be attached to Vergere's mistakes?

 

Questions spread falsehood? Dude, you've shown you're incapable of entertaining interpretations outside the one you've locked in on, so I don't even know why you talk about it. Hell, you completely ignored my earlier post and responded with pedantry. What's the point?

 

Exactly - that's why I wouldn't tend to dignify it by calling it the Socratic method.

I believe I suggested that the unifying Force could be subject to a similar kind of breakdown as seen with the living Force. ( Or it might not. ) Did that catch on, I wonder?

Anyway, this is the interpretation I "locked in on":

 

How does that fit with the Father representing it in Mortis? What evidence is there that the Cosmic Force is separated into sides? How does that fit with the will of the Force? Are you suggesting that the will of the Force is exclusive to the light side?

The Cosmic Force is one.

I know. Why should I waste my time trying to explain otherwise when it's like talking to a wall? It simply doesn't penetrate and my patience has limits.

For good measure:


I ain't banging my head into the wall anymore.

 

We might do well to consider what happens to Jacen once he steps outside the artificial Nietzschean Vergereian bubble of Traitor.

Since you don't even appear to accept that the living Force and the cosmic Force are distinct, you're not actually in agreement with Season 6 of TCW. You're fallaciously treating the presumed nonduality of the cosmic Force as some kind of validation of the belief that the living Force must be similarly nondualistic.

What about the dark side's will, as cited in Darth Plagueis?

So much for - what was it again? - "entertaining interpretations outside the one you've locked in on".