Thanks France (and friends) ! {or USA VS the World}

....
I don't see how you can come up with the comparison, DarthPigFeet..

But very interesting, nonetheless..

So, do you think US goes to war with Iraq for oil? Or is Bush trying to combat antisemitism?

 

I have to disagree with you abut how they "hate Jews." I lived in Germany for three years. Maybe there's still a little bias there, maybe even an underlying anti-semitism. But to say that they flat out hate them is not right.

 

The answer to your question is none of the above. If we were after Oil then we would have taken it 12 years ago if not sooner. Also if it was about Oil, SO WHAT!!! We would then be in charge of a good chunk of Oil and yours and mine gas prices would drop big time. So what's not to like if we get rid of SH????? So really if it's about Oil then so what, I could surely use a lower gas bill every month. How about you?

Second the U.S. isn't out fighting anti-semitism either. We are out to disarm SH, and to rid the middle east of his terrorist supporting regime. Al Queada or not isn't important to me. What is that SH pays 10,000 dollars to families who have given up family members to be suicide bombers. That is supporting and condoning the actions of terrorism.

He has had 12 years to disarm. Hasn't done so. We know he has 5,000 to 6000 weapons that we knew about back in the 90's which have yet been recovered and the Iraqi government has no paperwork or wants to tell us the truth about where they are.

If they have nothing to hide from inspectors then why have they been so deviant in U.N. inspectors in the past? If they have nothing to hide then why will they not allow their scientist be interviewed outside of Iraq? If they have nothing to hide then why all the limitations as to what the U.N. inspectors can and can't do?

If Iraq wants to clear it's name with the U.S. and the rest of the world then do this. However they haven't. There is no need to wait any longer to get rid of SH is there? Blix clearly said Iraq has not complied with U.N. resolutions. End of story. SH has failed his test and now must be punished for it.

 

In response to rsterling... I believe America is a superpower only because it chose to be, and had the resources to do so. I think the Europeans have chosen not to be superpowers. Being a superpower is a burden Europeans don't want. Being a superpower means constant struggle, constantly looking over your shoulder, constantly making choices between compassion and efficiency, like a parent wondering, "Do I spend more time with my kids, or spend no time with them so I can work enough to afford a great college for them?" It means you have to police the world, and people hate you for it. It's a terrible job, but I guess someone has to do it, if even just be default.

Europeans would rather have 4 weeks of vacation, not work 60 hours a week, not have huge armies, etc. And yes, when the time comes, they like to wield power by manipulating the country that DID choose this burden. They'd rather be underestimated and act behind the scenes. And really, who can blame them?

The problem is that some people seem to think one way is right and the other is wrong. Both are necessary. Someone's got to be the disciplinarian, and someone's got to be the nurturer.

Humanity is really just a big macrocosmic family. While the world can't live without a superpower, that superpower can't live without the world either. This is just how it is. Dad (in the old-fashioned archetypal view of the nuclear family) is the superpower. Mom is the ally nations. And the kids are those nations that are being aided, punished or exploited by Mom and Dad. When the US and USSR were both trying to be Dad, it was like a very bad divorce.

Basically, what we have now is Dad (US) outlining a punishment for the bad kid (Hussein), and Mom (France et al) undermining Dad's authority by suggesting his punishment plan is too rash. We're basically telling France et al, "Don't you backtalk me, woman!" and they are replying, "Hey, I have equal authority in this marriage."

 

I love how that example painted the US as being a chauvanistic husband eying the line of abuse.

 

It has plenty to do with France, Germany way of thinking. Look at the big picture. These countries hate Jews. Who does Iraq hate? Israel. Who lives in Israel? Jews.

Not only do these countries have a lot of money invested in Iraqi Oil, but they agree with Iraq supporting and condoning suicide bombings against Israel.

Need proof of this see WWII.

Take a long hard look at these countries past and get back to me. This issue very much has something to do with their blind reasoning in this situation, though I will agree that their views on Jewish people is second and their first priority is all the money they have invested in Iraqi Oil.

They will allow money and Oil get in the way of the worlds security. That is a no no



Read yourself before posting!
How such words can be said in this board? aren't any moderators here?
It is you who hate others people, yours purpose are deeply xenophobic.
How can you put millions of peoples in the same bag like this without asking yourself "did I said a stupidity?"
This don't serve you, it can't serve you.
You can have a opinion about all this UN stuff without insulting others with yours racists talks.

I understand you are frustated with this day, because you are pro-war and anti-UN (at least now) And if I were you, i would be too. But you can express yourself without that. (and I think you are a little too angry)
How a debate can take place with so arrogant peoples like you?
Everybody is insulted with your says, the americans because you give the worst image imaginable of your country and all others because you insult them directly.

We are adults people? So let's talk like adults not like kids without their toys.

 

How such words can be said in this board? aren't any moderators here?

The same could be said for much of the very blatant anti-American things said on this board.


*Note: I do not agree with what he said.

 

The same could be said for much of the very blatant anti-American things said on this board.

Sure, and it's not a reason for doing the same thing, otherwise it's no more a discussion but a dispute.

 

What have I said which is so bad? It's the truth. I'm not the one who is racist here. How you can come to that conclusion is beyond me???????

When I was referring to anti-semetic behavior of France and Germany I talking about the leaders and officials of that country, not all the people of those countries.

So I think it's you who need to calm down MRHA. I didn't know you spoke for everyone on the JC. Anyone who knows me around here will tell you I despise Nazis, KKK and other hate groups. I despise them so much that many will tell you that they shouldn't be protected under the 1st amendment of our constitution, because all they spread is hate.

So I hope that clears that up. Oh and yes I am angry that France, Germany, Russia and others are so BLIND as to not see that what they are doing is protecting an evil man because they want his Oil. Did you know that the French were in Iraq back in 2002 striking up more deals with SH for more Oil????

 

Sure, and it's not a reason for doing the same thing, otherwise it's no more a discussion but a dispute.

True. I'm just pointing out that it's a two-way street.

 

DARTHPIGFEET > no more comments of me on what you say. If you want some arguments, I think you should read your posts. (and for example try to inverse French&co with USA, you will see perharps).

I don't want to envenom this, it's not a catch-ring.

 

MRHA I'm simply responding to you. Why not if you don't like what I have to say then defend why you don't like it, instead of screaming bloody murder for a moderator which by the way is not needed???

State your case. Also I'm not here to argue, but I'm sick and tired of these countries doing what they are doing.

Also I don't like being called a racist so if anyone is starting a personal argument here it's you not me.

Also if I can't call officials and policy makers of other countries Anti-semetics like I truely believe they are then why is it so acceptatble to call Bush, Blair idiots, morons, warmongers? There should be no double standard around here. I'm sick and tired of hearing that as well. I don't like name calling but the past and the evidence is there to clearly bring up the topic of anti-semetism on the part of several European powers. If you don't like that then tough. If you have an issue then here is a tissue. I'm not hear to sugar coat anything, and frankly if you don't like what I have to say then TOO BAD!!!

So I would like an apology for being called a racist which I am not. I'm far from it.

 

Look at the big picture. These countries hate Jews. Who does Iraq hate? Israel. Who lives in Israel? Jews.

Ah, an Americans patting himself on the back over Israel. So, pray tell, when you almsot sold Israel out to curry favour with the Arabs in the early 1950's, was the USA anti-Semitic then. Remember, the USA was going to supply arms and aid to the Arab states to keep oil prices down, and Israel was supported by England and FRANCE!!! So really, America MUST have been anti-Semitic then, as well as during WWII (See Walter Lacquer).

If you're going to accuse a country with the strongest anti-anti-Semitic laws of anti-Semitism, DARTHPIGFEET, you should not only be aware of the facts but also the history - when your country almost sold Israel out completely. Wondered why the US took the position it did in the Suez Crisis? (And I don't mean anti-Colonialism. I mean hoping that Nasser would join the anti-Soviet fight. He didn't though).

E_S

 

I never said America was a saint. Check the Iraq thread for this as well. I put the disclaimer on that post but not this one. My bad.

As a matter of fact did you know that back in 1937 or so before WWII kicked off that Hitler had arranged a cruise boat to set sail with a bunch of Jewish refugees to get them out of the country. Were talking 1000 passengers easy put on a boat to sail to the Carribean. This was the early inventive ways Hitler was trying to get Jews out of Germany. Before Concentration camps there were these secret vacations, and this cruise was one of them. Now here was the catch. There was not enough food, water and other supplies to sustain life on this ship for the voyage. This boat landed near Florida with half the people on the ship dead or dying of starvation and our own Coast guard refused to allow this ship to dock for medical help. I think only a few on this boat survived.

I read about this real life event years ago, and this order came down from FDR policy so yeah America was just as bad back then as well. So in the long run who was more evil in this instance? Hitler or the U.S. policy at the time which wouldn't help these dying people on this ship? I would say it's 50/50 but not helping and allowing these people to die is terrible.

The allies knew about what was going on in Europe to the Jews. They knew, but they never knew that it was as bad as it turned out to be.

So Ender I know America has had plenty of anti-semitism and it still exists today,however the big difference is that we support Israel. We support it defending itself from terrorism, and especially Iraq who has attacked them in the past. However what these nations in France, Germany etc... are doing is looking beyond this clear and present danger and are looking at Oil here nothing more.

 

Which is really no different to the actions of the US in the past. Now, I don't wish to appear to be having an indictment of the USA here, but it seems to me to be a wee bit hypocrticial to blast France, Russia and Germany over this when one considers not only the pre-Suez US-Arab relationship (and the motivating factor thereof), but the motives behind keeping the Shah in power or indeed, the first Gulf War.

I wish to once again reiterate that I am not taking sides b/w Europe and the US on this; what I would like to say is taht I can't support blasting Europe for acting in selfish interest.

E_S

 

I love how that example painted the US as being a chauvanistic husband eying the line of abuse.

That's not what I had in mind, though. While the nuclear family is pretty much an idealized myth, the roles within it are something we can't escape - someone's always the disciplinarian, someone's the nurturer, and someone is the child. Even in three roomates of the same age, you'll almost always see them unconsciously assuming these roles.

I was not trying to compare the US to a bad stereotype. Sorry it came across that way.

PigFeet, chill out a bit. I think people just wanted to know if you had evidence of anti-Semitism, or if it was just a feeling you get about those leaders. For what it's worth, people who call Bush a moron have gotten a lot more backlash than you just got, so don't get too upset.

By the way, the Bush family invested a lot of money in Third Reich controlled businesses during WWII, leading many to conclude the Bushes were anti-Semites. The Bushes were hardly the only ones to do this and I don't assume it was out of hatred for the Jews, but my point is, accusations of anti-Semitism can only serve to bog down the board in circular disputes where everyone accuses everyone else of hating Jews.

I just shrug and say, "Without Jews, we wouldn't have movies like SW, as at least half the people responsible for Hollywood past and present were/are Jewish."

 

TreeCave, you realise that list would have to include William Shatner?

E_S

 

Ender_Sai:

For a short list, listen to the Chanaukah (sp) Song by Adam Sandler.

 

I'm fine, and let me go on record so there is no debating. I love Jews. I have plenty of friends who are, and I loved your quote at the end Treecave about SW and Hollywood etc.... Good one.


I'll tell you what I'll do. Since some have their panties in a bunch over what I said about Anti-semetics and Europe I will re-tract it for a while.

However I will stick with the fact that these countries are stopping the U.S. from protecting itself and the rest of the free world for that matter because they have a lot of money at stake with Iraqi Oil.

If the U.S. was smart they would strike a better deal with these countries. For example.

"When we get rid of SH and we have control of Iraq and if you help us, then we will take the deal you made with SH, and make it better by lowering the price and giving more Oil. Do we have a deal?"

That is all the U.S. would have to do to get France and Germany and Russia on board for this.

However why should we have to bargin like this to get rid of a evil person like SH. Countries should simply say yeah lets go do it. Or like I've said already which some around here didn't like there is another reason and agenda going on here than just Oil that is at stake. For instance why else would France, Germany and Russia care about what we do in Iraq?????

 

Dammit, Ender_Sai, I'm a movie-watcher, not a critic! (that's supposed to be an impersonation of Bones)

Shatner is also a Canadian. They're about 17% of the population of Hollywood entertainment, too. They're very sneaky - they look pretty much like Americans, and they talk pretty much like Americans, except they're really really really polite and nice. It's the politeness that tips you off, and then you realize, "Wait a second! By Jove, you're Canadian, aren't you?"

Anyway, I have to go spank myself for getting off-topic before the mods catch me.

 

Um, the boards no longer allow editing between 11:00 PST and midnight, so I'm double posting. Sorry. I cross-posted with Pig Feet and wanted to say:

I'm fine, and let me go on record so there is no debating. I love Jews. I have plenty of friends who are, and I loved your quote at the end Treecave about SW and Hollywood etc.... Good one.

I know you're not a bigot. And speaking of quotes, I just can't get too mad at someone who quotes Devil's Advocate in their sig. (How could SW fans not love that movie? It's basically the same story, just set in NY with lawyers instead of Sith.)

As for your suggestion about bargaining with the ally countries, THAT is a good idea. I think that's what we've been talking about with the lack of diplomacy. Diplomacy isn't just nice words, it's striking deals and networking. I actually think there'a s lim posibility that some serious sanctions (particularly from Russia) against Iraq and other similar hardline moves could compel Iraq to comply. Actually, I think it's got at least as good a chance as an attack on Iraq, which I suspect will just lead to more terrorism (Iraq attacking us on US soil) without achieving our goals.

 

It has plenty to do with France, Germany way of thinking. Look at the big picture. These countries hate Jews. Who does Iraq hate? Israel. Who lives in Israel? Jews.

So the reason America isn't cleaning up Africa right now is because they are racist bigots right? After all, America hates black people (for proof look at American history throught the last two centuries.) Who lives in Africa? Black people.

This logic is ridicilous.

BTW, did you know that PALESTINIANS are ALSO SEMITIC people?

 

I posted the following in the Official Iraq thread, but I thought it might be relevant here as well:

What person do you know in any country wherever you live in the world would be allowed to commit a crime 16 times without any recompense?

For instance: There is a who robber held up sixteen banks over twelve years and was caught on tape with no doubts as to who he is. The police know who he is, and do nothing but keep trying to look in his house where stolen material was supposedly present without knowing that he's hiding it at a friends house. Then the police ask the city council for more policeman to keep looking in his house when the Judge asked the criminal to hand it all over without conditions. The criminal says he doesn't have the money, and he places restrictions on the policemen entering his house. The police are unable to find anything, and the criminal is hoping the statute of limitations runs out before they find his stash or that the police will simply move on to other matters and leave him be. Then what would you say about the police department? The criminal is making a fool of them, and it would be a laughable organization unable to enforce it's own mandates.

This is the current state of the United Nations.

 

What person do you know in any country wherever you live in the world would be allowed to commit a crime 16 times without any recompense?

Israel are in violation of more UN Security Council resolutions than Iraq, and they are one of America?s chief allies. Can you say 'hypocritical argument?'

I knew you could.

 

Yet another diversionary tactic because you cannot answer the question.

The Anti-Semitism in the UN and that still exists today in Europe is well known. Has Israel been involved in the use of chemical weapons on it's own people? Have they started wars with their neighbors? Is Israel involved in international terrorism, or would they give WOMD to terroists? Where is international condemnation besides the US on suicide bombings in Israel? You certainly won't see it in most of mainland Europe. Gee, I wonder why. Uh, remember Vichy France? Hmmm? However, those are separate issues from this one which involves Iraq and weapons of mass destruction.

The same French who were working against the inspection regime a few years back are now the biggest backers of their continuation. I wonder who is being hypocritical here.