Games The 25th Jedi Draft - The Silver Anniversary Edition!! (Champion: Point Given!)

Sidenote while y'all make args...

I remember seeing the "Dark Old Ben" image way back, but a ton more details of the abandoned Battlefront 4 have come out. Check out the images here, it's a ton of cool alternate timeline stuff!

Also imagine a draft with where you could twist the characters to your will that way, like you choose Light/Dark from the outset and all your peeps go through a little training bootcamp to become who you want. You could have Dark Luke making Mara the Emperor's Hand again! Evil little Yoda! Sids leading a Jedi team, like he somehow did for Madine back in the day!

Maybe even a redeemed-not-stupid Jacen!

 

Well. I know the twist I want in place for the 26th Draft.

 

That first image for Jedi Leia is pretty fly
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Darth Krayt VS Meetra Surik (prep)

Pretty frickin sweet fight right here, but I think (obviously- he's my guy!) Krayt takes this in the end.

Ultimately, the biggest separator between these two is top-end feats; their demonstrated skill and experience against other top fighters is going to be the biggest indicator of what they can do here. And, I think the Exile falls well short of what Krayt's done at that level.

We'll start with some quote from Wang (arguing against Cade Skywalker, but detailing Krayt's power):

Regardless of whether or not you agree with him about Krayt > Cade when removing plot-power, Krayt very clearly can, at minimum, hang with Cade. Resurrected Krayt is pure beast- and he's got the Force power and tricks to back it up (blasting Cade around, Dark Transfer, etc. This is Krayt's signature showing and he's crushing Cade Skywalker up until the very end when he takes his foot off the gas a little.

Krayt's other showings against top tier opponents

• Against Obi-Wan, and it's pretty damn close to peak Obi-Wan to boot. He's able to get a few good knocks in on Kenobi and their duel lasts a decent while
• Abeloth- Krayt goes to the Lake of Apparitions to help Luke fight Abeloth (because Abeloth isn't someone that uber-Luke can take alone).

That's a seriously impressive showing- being able to damage Abeloth significantly and withstand punishment that was giving peak-Luke trouble.

• Takes down Wyyrlok, which while not a truly top-tier opponent, is still a great fight and really showcases some of Krayt's power (some images behind spoiler tag to condense)

Spoiler: imagaes

• Beats Padawan-level Anakin Skywalker. Ok, not as impressive as Anakin was still a Padawan, but that Padawan was able to hang with Ventress

Krayt has a long history of tangling with some truly top-tier opponents, and he always gives a good account of himself (even if he loses some of those fights).

Let's look at who Surik has fought for her "signature wins"

• Traya
• Sion
• Nihilus (had the benefit of cancelling out his Force-woundness)
• Atris? (I'm reaching pretty far here)

None of these guys get any sort of serious respect around here (I have Traya), certainly nothing on Cade's level. Heck, I'm pretty certain Wyyrlok would get the win over each of them. She doesn't face Vitiate, she doesn't fight Scourge.... She fights Vitiate's elite Imperial Guards (two of them), but they're fairly comparable to generic ImpKnights, who Krayt cuts down left and right. Nyriss gets the drop on her and Surik is losing until Revan steps in. She's got nothing that matches Krayt's experience versus top-end opponents.

Sure, she has prep here - and she preps rather well - but that's kind of the only thing keeping her in this fight. But what does she really bring to the fight here? A blaster? Grenades? Mines? Nothing that Krayt would be surprised or challenged by.

In the end, I don't think Surik's prep is enough to overcome the vast experience gap Krayt has on her at facing other elite fighters, and he'll win this one.

 

Hey friends can’t judge till tmrw night so @Point Given Have at it for a rebuttal, and also if we don’t get some ridiculous Mara vs. Saba/Leia args— during International Women’s Month!— from the legends that are Inty & Wang I will be personally offended

 

The number of characters that know Leia better Mara that aren't either blood relatives or have snogged her - or both (hi Luke!) - numbers exactly zero. MJS doesn't need 24 to gather information on Leia. She doesn't even need to turn to husband and say "hey, tell me about Leia and her weaknesses" because MJS has been there the entire time.

The real threat to MJS here is Saba. Especially Saba with a capable partner. I've long found Saba underestimated in this draft. She has feats to back herself up, and tangibles to win a lot of the toss-up battles. Again, though. MJS has been around the Jedi Order the entire time Saba has. They'll know each other inside and out. Saba doesn't have prep and thus can't be ready for the battle.

And here, Mara's prep really seals the deal. She knows that Saba is the greater threat, and she's allowed weapons and armor thanks to prep. If she can - and trust me, she can - quickly do damage that limits (not take out, but limit) Saba early on, that's going to drive the gap further. Nothing at all to stop Mara Jade from walking into battle wearing Synthetic Vonduun Skerr Kyrric - something she's done multiple times. Good luck using your lightsabers on that, ladies. Good luck using your claws and teeth on it, Saba. Can't recall either of you using Force Lightning, so there goes that idea. And it's not going to slow Mara Jade down. At all. Nor restrict her. So, defense is pumped up. Offense? You can pump that up, too. The question here is which long range weapon makes the most sense? Good thing for me Mara Jade is better tactician than I am. I don't need to answer that question, just trust that she's able to decide between a Thermal Detonator to confuse her opponents, or some poison darts, or anything else.

Were Saba also prepared, this could be a different story. But, given the edge in what Mara can bring ... this one is fun, but decided.

 

Anything else my dudes? Gonna try to get it up tonight! That sounds inappropriate without context! #AfternoonSnack!

 

Feel free to judge

@KenKenobi
@Yodaminch
@Evil Incarnate

 

Numbers 1, 3, 10

1. Mara Jade Skywalker (PREP) vs. 1. Saba Sebatyne trumped with Leia Organa-Solo

Ow my heart. Choosing between prepared Mara Jade, who yes I voted over Sidious(!) for. And the awesome duo of Saba and Leia. This one had some fantastic arguments. First, let me look at Inty's. Inty is right that Mara knows both opponents very well... to a point. Unfortunately for Mara, she does get offed before Leia hits her true peak and Saba ascends to temporary Grand Master. Prep gives Mara the edge of knowing these feats yes. But it's one thing to know it and another to actually fight the opponent who you think you know- which is definitely how I see Mara viewing both opponents. I don't think she underestimates either. The problem for me is the idea of taking both out. Mara prep v Saba? Yep. Mara prep v Leia? Yep. But Mara prepped vs both is a tall order because these are not the type of opponents that go down easy. As tough as Saba is, Leia's been blown up more often and is back on her feet. I mean:


And the books were doing that long before the films. Leia is a durable beast. Yes, Mara can absolutely wear protective armor and pack poisons. But that doesn't really convince me that Mara's going to take these two down before they knock her out. You can't really sell me on her getting the drop on either one. Especially since Leia's danger sense would give Spider-Man goose bumps.

But here's the thing, while Saba is a hunter and both Saba and Leia have killed, they are not trained assassins. They didn't kill for the living. And they weren't the best of the best-which Mara was. Additionally, while Leia has held her own in many duels, not a single bit of text refers to Leia as any type of expert duelist. She's good at defense but never has she strong me as offensively strong. Nor do I see Leia as versatile in her knowledge of the force. There's a reason Leia didn't ascend to the rank of Master for so long and I would argue it was this. Leia is much more of a keeper of the peace type of jedi. More of a healer like Cilghal. Sure she practices aggressive negotiations in her diplomatic missions, but generally after someone tries to kill her and Han first. So yes, I do see Leia losing to Mara in a duel. Which is why I think Mara takes on Saba first. And that's really not that hard. Barabels are not exactly a hard species to exploit. They are reptilian right? And Nar Shadda likely plays right into Mara's wheelhouse. She can divide and conquer and use the city to her advantage. And once Saba is out, Leia will eventually go down.

Winner: Mara Jade Skywalker (Prepared)

3. Tott Donetta/Cay Qel-Droma vs. Qui-Gon Jinn

While I do feel like Qui-Gon's ability to hold his own against Maul for a long time is not regarded as highly as it should be, I don't really see much evidence that Qui-Gon is great against multiple opponents without prep.

Winner: Tott/Cay

10. Kam Solusar TRUMPED With Shigar Koshi vs. Leia Organa-Solo trumped with Saba Sebatyne (FORFEIT)

THE FINALS

@Point Given (1) vs. @DarkEagle (2)

1. Darth Vader vs. 1. Sora Bulq
3. Depa Billaba/Agen Kolar vs. 3. Jerec/Sariss

This really comes down to Jerec and Sariss being a better trump.

10. The Exile (PREP) vs. 10. Darth Krayt

So for a similar reason that I voted for Mara, I am voting for the Exile over Krayt. If it weren't for the familiar nature of this location for Meetra, I might reconsider. But that plus prep gives her enough of an edge over Krayt. As others have noted, Krayt had a habit of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. And while the Exile has had similar track records at times, her unique skillset and force talents also give her an edge over what Krayt brings. And while he's a fierce duelist, he has been defeated before. And part of Meetra's talents include her skill with a saber. The prep seals it for me.

Winner: The Exile (prepared)







Quick Note: I will be at a conference for the weekend. I fly out tomorrow morning and will be back Monday. So hopefully that won't affect any major judgments and I should still have some access to wifi, but wanted to get this out before I left.

 

Aw dang, meant to counter-arg on this; quick bullet points version:

• re: Krayt's questionable losses. Yeah, not his best showings, but a) he wasn't at his peak b) everyone has their bad days. How many times in TCW did Obi-Wan or Anakin (or Dooku) lose some random fight to like Hondo or someone? They're still top-tier due to their good showings and Krayt's showings clearly put him up there. Surik had to flee from Sion when they faced early on and struggled in some of her fights too
• Still going with Krayt's win over Wyyrlok being better than the Exile's over the triumvirate members.
• Plus Krayt's showing against a universe-devouring super-being is better than Surik's largely because we have Uber-Luke right there who has struggled to defeat her for 9 books at that point
• And for all this talk of Krayt losing and "choking", Surik doesn't have a huge win to hang her hat on either
• Though I do largely agree that the triumvirate deserve a bit more respect (including Traya! )
• Prepping against a roomful of chumps is vastly different from prepping against an elite opponent like Krayt. Her battle pre-cog certainly didn't help her (trumped with Revan!) take Vitiate. If we had seen her use it to help against top-tier opponents, I'd buy it helping her here. But we haven't. The one time it could have really made an impact (and saved her life!), it left her high and dry (and dead)
• Minch is right about Jerec and Sariss having much better cohesion here. An actual master- apprentice duo. Depa is either crazy or near useless, which hurts Kola r's chances of winning (argh, meant to include this fight in my earlier post)
• Jerec (a former Jedi Master) is going to be much more familiar with them than they are of him (since he really came into his power after they died)
• Jerec and Sariss have some uncommon Force tricks up their sleeves that can catch their opponents off guard (like immobilization when they easily dispatched Qu-rahn)

 

Let's rock & rolla...

Inty vs. Wang

Mara (prep) over Saba/Leia-- It's too bad she didn't hit Ahsoka since those two have been the story of the draft in terms of arguments. Still think Cade waxes Snips and didn't quite pull the trigger on the Sids upset but still they've been the subject of some wild matches. As it is, I'm buying what Inty's selling. This really would be a spectacular Tales battle (except...everything with Mara and Saba is like Tales now...*sniff*), but Mara's intimate knowledge of these two combined with prep time...clock it in a fun one.

Qui-Gon over Tott/Cay-- One of my fav memories of this game is finding old WEG & Wizards sourcebooks and pouring over them for esoteric things. I remember buying the TotJ Companion on ebay (!!) and just enjoying this old book that also had the awesome side effect of showing that Thon's Ambria story wasn't, like, something he'd beat Anakin Skywalker for. And one of the things I distinctly remember from the PotJ Sourcebook is some rando dudes having Battle Meditation-- guys like Oss Willum and Tater Tott, who presumably learned it from Arca or even traveling with Nomi. So in retrospect, that Thon Burger trump could've been Cay Qel-Droma-- who kinda hangs with Ulic for some frames-- just mega-amped by three BM Jedi on the wings. Which makes me feel better about setting a season-high in "votes for Thon" this draft, thx Inty.

Anyway did I just wax poetic about this duo, in a 3rd place game, just to vote against them? Yes, yes I did. Never underestimate KenKenobi's ability to fill a text box about a hypothetical Star Wars battle. The thing in Qui-Gon's favor is that he's such an in-the-moment, Living-Force kinda dude that I see him rolling with BM-punches and not letting them mentally dictate his approach. And I like his showings against Maul (where he runs and dies respectively, sure) over Cay's against pookas and Ulic (where he gets his arm chopped off and dies, respectively). Also he's a technique-oriented duelist, and low-and-behold, the sourcebooks point to Tott & Cay being Ataru guys (Qui's specialty) through and through.

The crazy thing in looking this up though? Qui-Gon doesn't have an entry anywhere. Seriously, I couldn't find him! Power of the Jedi, Jedi Academy Manual, not even the Clone Wars Campaign Guide throws him a bone...yet Tott & Cay are ****ing everywhere! So consider this recompense for that shaft, Liam Neeson old pal.

Kam shmoking a Shigar via forfeit


PG vs. DE

Vader over Bulq-- A good old-fashioned SLICE!

Depa/Agen over Jerec/Sariss-- Depa wins this by herself. She fought mutated, Force-sensitive, gladatorial akk dogs in this location already. She knows Vaapad. She scares the bejesus out of Windu. Agen is just added ammo to me.

Krayt vs. Textile-- Gonna extend this into tmrw...I don't mean to hold everyone up, @Evil Incarnate feel free to jump in to make it obsolete, but it's late and I wanna make sure I'm doing my due diligence re: Textile's exploits and Krayt's appearance in Apocalypse. It's the Finals after all! And I think this one could very well determine the champ.

Any final comments there are welcome too! kk night night

 

I keep forgetting to argue my "other" matches.

Qui-Gonn - played by Liam Neeson
Also played by Liam Neeson? Good Cop/Bad Gop in the Lego Movie
Prone to start arguing with himself?
Against a cohesive pair?
game over, man.

 

So basically what we're saying is that Mara Jade with PREP is the best character in Star Wars. Because I have a feeling that even if she went against Luke you'd all vote for her. Alrighty then.

 

Well. She lost. So I think that's a bit of hyperbole.

 

I think we have had that match and Mara did lose, though everyone agreed it would be a hilarious match.

Someone even made the inevitable bedroom jokes, IIRC.

At any rate, Mara's matches have had less to do with her being really good (though she is) and more just ridiculously lucky draws. At least from what I can see. If you gave Mara prep and tossed her against Yoda or Mace or Revan or Sithperor or...well. Any first rounder she doesn't know very well from training under them, I wouldn't see the match going the same way. With Sids, from my understanding, it was all down to just how well she knew him and how he fought allowing her prep to mean even more than it usually does. She doesn't know Yoda or Mace, and her prep isn't going to quite overwhelm the power edge there.

To my understanding.

 

As someone (probably the only one) that's had Luke v Mara (prep) and Sidious v Mara (prep) both start off 0-1 in favor of Mara, it feels pretty real (and is very stressful)

 

It's exactly this. If she'd hit Kenobi she's getting smoked.


Okay now to that final match...

Textile (prepped) vs. Darth Krayt

Advantages to Textile, who I should probably call Meetra at this point but anyway-- location she's already familiar with (everywhere from the city to different enclaves to the swoop tracks), the prep (she gets the video-game boost of basically carrying everything-and-a-Mandalorian-kitchen-sink in her pack somehow), experience battling a dude who refuses to die like Krayt (fueled by Dark Side Force wells on Korriban to boot), fewer instances of getting worked a la PG's point.

Advantages to Krayt-- the only dude to have fought alongside the Anakin/Luke/Cade trio (and kinda beat two of them!) so he's def got quality on his side re: DE's arg, vonduun crab armor that'll be hard for Meexile even to prep against, experience with "voids" in the Force by wiping the floor with Yuuzhan Vong (and, it should be noted, he does it using the Force when he blast them with lightning post-Vergere), Dark Transfer which is a pretty nutty power to wield.

That's pretty down the damn middle, and every time I went to vote Krayt for his superior record or how casual he is mowing down Imp Knights, PG's point about Cade actually winning that fight or the metric ton of pooka Sith at Textile's feet kept popping in my head.

BUT then every time I'd got to vote Textile, the fact that PG never bribed me with Knicks tix in exchange for the vote kept popping in my head. And that, coupled with knowing who Evil is voting for, is why I gotta go...

Winner: Darth Krayt

 

I'll have my judgements up later tonight. I forgot that my computer was in my car when I let my buddy barrow it for errands.

Evil.

 

Meetra(prep) vs. Krayt
I'd give this match to Meetra(prep) 8 or 9 times out of 10. The fact that she's in a familiar area only makes this a sure thing IMO.

Qui-Gon vs. Cayter Totts
The trump is outclassed in blade work in this match, and I think that's enough to swing it in the favor of the man with a very long career and skills that make him a nightmare for people like them.

Evil.

 

How come?

BTW, also need jerec/Sariss v agen/depa

 

The Exile is basically a walking toolbox of powers and abilities, and this combined with her familiarity with the location only helps. One of the things I always hated about going through Nar Shaddaa in KOTOR II was the traps that were scattered throughout the locale, hell I just hated the traps in general. Anyway, I don't see why the exile wouldn't be able to find info on trap locations and type with her prep, and I see Krayt just trying to tank through the ones he does see coming. This is where the various powers she has will really come in handy: There's Battle Precognition, which lets her allows her to sense incoming attacks before they happen; Force Barrier and Energy Resistance, which will allow her to tank pretty much anything that Krayt throws at her; Force Absorption, which we all know she's good with since she basically just walks around absorbing the force by default; Force Stun, which I don't see playing factor early on when Krayt is at full power, but I definitely see him getting hit bad by this near the end of the fight; Then there's my favorite, her ability to sever people from the force completely. Removing Krayt's powers is the way I see this ending, followed quickly by her ending his life.

As for Jerec/Sariss vs. Agen/Depa, Depa wins this by herself with her bladework while Agen kinda just distracts whoever she's not concentrating on at the moment.

Winner: Depa Billaba

Evil.

 

Championship Round

Location: Nar Shaddaa

Numbers 1, 3, 10

Third Place game.

@DarthIntegral (4) vs. @Wang Chi (2)

1. Mara Jade Skywalker (PREP) vs. 1. Saba Sebatyne trumped with Leia Organa-Solo
3. Tott Donetta/Cay Qel-Droma vs. Qui-Gon Jinn
10. Kam Solusar TRUMPED With Shigar Koshi vs. Leia Organa-Solo trumped with Saba Sebatyne (FORFEIT)

THE FINALS

@Point Given (4) vs. @DarkEagle (2)

1. Darth Vader vs. 1. Sora Bulq
3. Depa Billaba/Agen Kolar vs. 3. Jerec/Sariss
10. The Exile (PREP) vs. 10. Darth Krayt

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Numbers 4, 5, 6, 8

Third Place game.

@DarthIntegral (4) vs. @Wang Chi (2)

4. Ganner Rhysode TRUMPED W/ Jaden Korr vs. 4. Tresina Lobi trumped with Fay
5. Jaden Korr TRUMPED W/ Ganner Rhysode (FORFEIT) vs. Fay trumped with Tresina Lobi (FORFEIT)
6. Nomi Sunrider/Thon TRUMPED W/ Luke Skywalker (FORFEIT) vs. Ki-Adi Mundi/Oppo Rancisis
8. Kol Skywalker vs. Arca Jeth

THE FINALS

@Point Given (4) vs. @DarkEagle (2)

4. Arcann vs. 4. Viun Gaalan trumped w/ Sarasu Taalon
5. Revan vs. 5. Vaylin
6. Antares Draco/Ganner Krieg vs. 6. Darth Sidious
8. Bastila Shan vs. 8. Sarasu Taalon trumped w/ Viun Gaalan (FORFEIT)

 

And that oughta do it to crown a new champ, for the formalities...

Inty vs. Wang

The Ganner/Jaden over Lobi/Fay
Double forfeit
KiMundo/Oppo via forfeit
Old Acre over Kol-- I'll go with the old man's self-BM in a battle of "we've killed mass pookas as our big feat"

Pointy vs. DE

Arcann over Lost Tribe Trump
Revan over Vaylin
Sids over Imp Knights Trump
Bastila via forfeit

 

gg, Inty!

And congrats (possibly prematurely) to PG! Dominating win, good sir.

 

Easy set compared to the last one. Agreed on all matches.

Evil.