Clone Wars The Clone Wars: Episode 314: Witches of the Mist Discussion Thread

And that right there sums up too much of Star Wars fandom attitude towards the work produced. There is this casual acceptance the terrible, the not so good, or mundane because well, it could be worse. When anyone point out the obvious flaws, they are called overcritical, when in fact there is little need to go pass the very surface of the material to point out why it is far from great. You don't need a degree in creative writing to see it.

That you enjoy it, is fine. That you can suspend disbelief is great. I am sure there are plenty who go and watch the Twilight films, The Last Airbender, X-Men Origins or Daytime Soaps who do the same thing. That doesn't stop the material from being flawed.

I have no problem with discussing various criticisms, I have a problem with the notion that anything unique and original about a character's story ought to be dismissed out of hand because of who his brother is so they just don't count. That seems borderline lunatic to me. That'd be like if I automatically hated all the X-Men films because I didn't like the leather jumpsuit idea. Get past the cosmetics and see where the story takes you for cryin' out loud.

Not at all. What make Savage different? Tell me. I have read many of your post, and haven't found a thing. There is a difference between being dismissive and being frank. Savage Oppress could come out wearing the kit of Manchester United and it wouldn't change the truth about the character. Window dressing is frivolous.

And as to the abusive girlfriend comment, well you honestly don't see it? It may be a crude, base level way of putting it, but it is what it is.

I haven't had one person tell me I'm wrong on that, other than those who insisted it can't possibly matter because of the inherent wrongness and cheapness of there being a character who is Darth Maul's brother. Which, in addition to being illogical, seeems a bit silly. Let's see where you take it.

I'd say it down to common sense really. If it walks like a duck, if it looks like a duck, it certainly isn't a hamster.

It has nothing to do with who his brother is, but that the character is a creation that has no life without his brother. His "unique" qualities are rendered irrelevant because they are window dressing. One maybe a well dressed lady of the night, but one is still a lady of the night. He is a character created only to serve the purpose of allowing the writers of the show to play with a dead character.

I just noticed your sig line. Nice!

from that point of view all minor characters are somehow "wrong" since they are created to serve their purpose as supporting the main characters- Savage is Maul's brother it was natural to bring him when Lucas wanted to tell more about Maul- better way could've been doing some stuff before TPM but Lucas wanted to add this to TCW- as Maul's brother it was natural to make him similar by appearance and in-universe characters also considered him similar.....

yeah they both are ducks not hamsters

Maul is nothing but guy who obeys his master and is damn good swordsman- that's his whole character he is mystery- it's very easy to consider Savage "similar" but let's face the fact that Maul has no backstory - Savage has some- he was taken by Ventress and made him to be a monster through darkest sorcery (Maul was taken by Sidious and he became sith but we never see that we just think it has to be like that) Savage looks like Maul and has similar saber that's it- rest of his character is not Maul- he don't act like Maul he don't move like Maul- he don't sound like Maul-

and he don't have to be Maul2- i think it's very interesting parallel with Luke and Anakin- Luke was jedi like his father before him still he didn't fall to the dark side like Emperor thought- he was not 'just like his father' even though he looked like him and had similar saber- just like Savage...

Savage's character would have worked without TPM but Maul was needed to be a rolemodel- mystic brother- just like Anakin was needed in Luke's character to be mystic jedi father- so "Luke has no life without his father" is truth (more than one point of view )then what- he is still a good character

even without Maul- Savage's story works nicely- he is taken changed and trained to be evil- but is he really evil remains to be seen.....

If he dies by the jedi he is maul-copy..... but we will see....

That is all fine and dandy but you'll notice you're doing what I mentioned ahead of time in the hopes you wouldn't. Rather than discussing the character's story and whether or not it's unique in the Star Wars universe compared to other characters, you attack it as "irrelevant" and "window dressing." If you can't enjoy the uniqueness of the character simply because you don't like that he's Maul's brother (or that he owes his creation to being Maul's brother, if that's a necessary distinction), I don't envy you. I've listed multiple differences multiple times, dismissing it all with that simplistic and illogical explanation I've heard over and over isn't offering me anything new to consider.

Yeah I've been thinking along the same lines since someone mentioned it in another thread. If you take all the dialogue literally in Ep. IV the revelation of Ep. V makes no sense, it'd be totally impossible, but should the focus be on how and why George was motivated to make that decision (I can just hear people complaining that it was a cheap way to add a more blatantly mythological aspect to the films) or on the story of Ep. V as it stands? If that were the kind of crap I was focused on I can't imagine I'd enjoy much about Star Wars.

This is perhaps intended as a joke, but I kinda see it as plausible. Except the spirit bit. I'm thinking it could to be Darth Maul's severed head sustained by some magical fluid whatsis and that he needs his brother to be whole again, whereas Savage needs his brother's finesse to master his OTT force skills.

The Zabrak species could be like earthworms and are able to generate body parts as long as the head/brain is intact. And, yeah, their internal anatomy could be very different from a human's as well.

I'm not saying these are good ideas necessarily. I was all set to come here and more or less bash the episode, particularly on the writing level and fanservice aspects. But after reading several arguments both pro and con, reasoned or otherwise, I'm now prepared to try to be open-minded about where they are going with this. Maul had some serious unrealized potential and even if I see the attempt to resurrect him as hackneyed, I'm going to try to appreciate whatever good aspects in it I can find.

Ok, it seems we arrived at a fairly balanced place here, so I'll take that as my cue to withdraw from the discussion at this time. It's just got too repetitive for my taste.

Best episode in the series so far!

I'm interested to see where this is going, though. I just can't help it.

Yeah, we seemed to be on different wavelengths at times.

Right, I see it now. That's what you get for referring me to a post that was directed at someone else.

Two golden tips for message board discussion:

1. Who said what?

and

2. Who did who?

Likewise. I really don't mind disagreeing with anyone, and I never hold any 'grudges' against anyone for any reason whatsoever except outright trolling.
When I keep going on about something, it is not because I want to be right, but often for the slightly narcissistic reason that I can't stand it when someone doesn't seem to understand me.

But, like Gry, I'm bowing out of this particular discussion because we've been running around in circles long enough.

And remember kids! Discussing 'Star Wars' on the internet: SRZ BZNZ!

That's a good summation of Darth Maul. He's a guy that shows up, looks mean, is incredibly skilled with a lightsaber, but we know next to nothing about his own motivations, his history, or how he came to be Sidious's apprentice.
What set Maul apart from any other potential apprentices and why is he also interested in getting revenge against the Jedi?

On the other side, we have Savage who has a well-developed backstory, interesting motivations, and is a tragic figure as he is being manipulated by other people. Savage is not Maul 2.0 because we don't even know what Maul 1.0 is. We maybe got Maul .25 out of TPM.

How does Savage have "interesting motivations?" He is, like post-spell, exactly the same as Maul: a relatively untalkative, brutish enforcer. While he is, in some remote sense "tragic" because he didn't intend for his life to go this way, that point has, to date, had absolutely no influence on his actions. Presumably it will be introduced at some point, but up until now, he's no different than any other generic Sith. Why does he fight the Jedi? We don't know. What does he want from life? We don't know. In fact, the only thing we know about his current motivations is his nonsensical desire for revenge against Ventress (why?) but not the person who he knows to be the immediate superior who approved of her actions.

Where does that leave us?

Savage = <img src="http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hulk_bill_bixby.jpg">

His current motivation is to seek out his brother to gain the training that will enable him to destroy the Jedi and Sith. He's gotten a taste of power and wants more. This is a change from his previous disposition of trying to remain unnoticed. Also, Dooku declares that a failed apprentice is a failure of the Master. Savage has had two Masters - Dooku and Ventress, and he refuses to be a failed apprentice to either. His desire is to now prove himself.

EDIT: LOL@GARTH MAUL. Good analogy, except Savage will never turn back into a weakling - or mild-mannered Savage Friendly. He craves his power now and wants more. Bruce Banner wants to destroy the Hulk.

I didn't say anything about any problem in OT- Obi-Wan's explanation in ANH is obvious lie anyway and makes complete sense with ESB "Obi-Wan told you killed him" so he did- if Vader would have been just killer of Anakin SW wouldn't be my favorite movieseries at all- ANH is nice but with ESB and Anakin is Vader -plot-twist the story is ten million times more interesting....

Now Savage is told "Your brother lives on the Outer Rim" is that lie also- very probable since guy is dead for sure- in good stories in-universe characters are like real people what comes to telling the truth sometimes they do sometimes they don't- and lies are therefore basis of interesting storytelling... now people started to complain how Maul is alive but only thing we saw is Talzin saying Maul is alive- we don't know if she was honest- so let's see how this turns out before bashing these plot-twists ......

I enjoyed this episode and arc overall. After watching it I didn't find Savage too overpowered considering some other power levels seen in this series. He did get his rear kicked at various points. Plus the Maul heritage presumably counts for something. But I do think they did the character a disservice by giving him a double-bladed red lightsaber. As others have mentioned, had he retained his previous weapon he would have retained a little originality.

I think the episode was solid overall, but it is hard to overcome the feeling of dread due to where they seem to be going with the Maul references. At first glance I don't see how could be alive, considering he had one of the most finalistic deaths in SW history. I figured it would have to be a clone or a ghost, but then I remembered...

[image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071205214059/starwars/images/thumb/9/94/Maw_kyle.jpg/471px-Maw_kyle.jpg]

Eh, your mileage may vary. But as I understand it "Wanting to be more powerful and defeat your former master" is pretty much the most textbook generic description of a Sith motivation possible. Is there a way to make it more unoriginal?

EDIT: To be clear, I don't dislike the character. Though I think that Ventress was by far the more interesting part of things, it's also the case that I very much enjoyed this arc. As I said before, these are my first TCW episodes ever. I just don't see where Savage is that terribly unique or compelling.

I'd definitely agree that, as far as character concepts go, Savage isn't all that unique. I mean, c'mon, entertainment has reached a stage where almost everything is on TVTropes at some point or another.

But I will say that I enjoyed watching him, all the same.

And I had to decide whether I rolled my eyes more when he was fighting or speaking.

Ok well, if even koonfan admits it, than it HAS to be true!!!!!

C'mon guys, where did all the trench warfare go?

I mean it's been a while since we hit page 20 on an episode topic!

We can do it! Just a few more posts!

What was that Dooku said about midi-chlorians?

Yeah, well...when you get to my age in pop culture years, you stop looking for what's unique and start looking for what you think is fun and good.

Not to say that they shouldn't at least TRY to make it unique, but y'know...I'll take what I can get. I'm an optimist, it's who I am.

...And then somewhere, out there, someone is shaking their head and thinking "THIS GUY is the reason we only get crap material these days". XD

YEAH REALLY

Although if background character fanboys would be the main target audience for TCW marketing, then this series might actually go somewhere...

...said the Monkey Lizard fanboy

Now THERE'S an idea for a spin-off series!

STAR WARS: PILF MUK MUK

Note to self: Plot an episode featuring nothing but Kit Fisto, Plo Koon, a disco, and monkey lizard deejays.