Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 408: The General -- Discussion Thread

"It may not be the most glamorous thing to do, but it's not always best for a General to lead from the front lines. Many of history's greatest Generals rarely got their hands dirty, but led from the rear, almost treating the battle as a game of chess. Not what many would call "brave", but is certainly a viable option for someone intelligent enough to pull it off. The Anakin Skywalker's often die quickly, if they're not really, really good at what they do."


Even those that are really, really good die. In real life it?s generally idiotic if a general goes to the front and fights, how on earth would one lead effectively when you have to focus on not being stabbed to death. But this isn?t reality, the Jedi are almost impervious to bullets, so it comes of pretty badly when someone like that has no real respect for the soldiers that continuingly are put into extreme danger.

 

Ping-Pong is starting to bore me. Just refer to my sig for any more opinion.

Great episode, though not as good as the last one IMO. Love seeing more Umbaran technology, they're becoming one of my favorite species.

I also LOVED seeing Appo being introduced in the series! I feel about him the same way the kids in the 80's felt about Boba Fett: looks cool, looks badass, though not much was known about him. Hopefully Appo'll fair better than 'ol Bobby.

Still waiting for development for the new guys and Krell's twin double-bladed lightsaber wielding.

 

One is a heartless, cowardly son of a bantha, and the other is a Jedi hero.

The Jedi aren't pragmatic, it's true. They shouldn't be in this military position, it's true. But Krell is compromising everything the being a Jedi entails, while Skywalker, Kenobi, Secura, Plo Koon and othets try to uphold their own principles. The clones are loyal, had they been led by men like Krell from the beginning, they wouldn't have a reason to complain. But they've seen the Jedi way, and they instinctively realize that it is morally better than Krell's way, and the way of the future Empire.

 

I'm struggling to decide where I stand with this one. I won't deny that it was a no-holes-barred thrillride that kept me sated throughout. The past 2 episodes have been the only ones since probably LaPR that actually have a decent amount of replay value. However, there are a lot of underlying issues that need to be addressed.

- First off, as everyone else has said, Krell's character hasn't moved anywhere. He's as shockingly written as he was last episode. I saw the comments about the need for speed, but there is no IU reason why Krell can't just send in the entire 501st, like he says he will (full frontal assault? All I see is Rex's platoon doing all the work) to overpower the airbase's defences and capture it. Michnovetz is trying to show Krell as a leader who uses overwhelming numbers to defeat his enemies, but that's not what we actually see in the episode. Last week we didn't really see fully how much of the 501st Krell held back while Rex's platoon advanced along the highway, but in this one it's all too clear that he's holding them back. If he really wanted to take the airbase quickly with a full frontal assault, then he should have sent in all his troops, instead of sending in what I would estimate to be 15% to be cannon fodder and somehow wear down all the defences, and keeping the other 85% back to as he put it, defend the back of the gorge. Funnily enough, a strategy that relies on zerging the enemy doesn't work out if there aren't enough clones to actually zerg them. Now obviously, from an OOU perspective they're only getting Rex's men to do everything (They should rename Rex to Captain Ramirez) because those are the only clones that we've seen get personalities, so obviously from a clone-centric episode's standpoint it makes sense to only focus on the established group than invent a shedload of new personalities for the rest of the clones. There may also be animation restraints if too many clones are running around onscreen at once. But I would honestly rather they actually make Krell stay true to his words and send everyone in than focus on character development for the clones of all people, which leads me quite nicely into my next point.

- Up until now I have tolerated the increased clone interaction. I have accepted that the reason they tried giving them all distinct personalities and "humanised" them is so that they actually have characters to work with for drama. But I think they went a bit too far this week. You could explain it away with IU excuses like how Anakin has made everyone in the 501st more independent and more likely to question protocol. But I doubt even in real life grunts would get away with back talk of this degree. It's like I said in the TCW General Discussion Thread, when someone gives you orders, you do not voice your objection to anyone but yourself, especially not your commanding officer. Clones like Jesse and Kix should have been slapped in the face by Rex for that. I really think they made the clones in this show way too PG and kid friendly, and they do not seem like realistic soldiers to me.

- The Appo cameo to me seemed like a pathetic nod to hardcore fans. It just seemed like they were prodding me with their elbows going "you see what we did there? We brought in Appo from ROTS, see, we do read around, and now we're bringing in these little nods to tie in our show with the films. Pretty impressive, huh?" except that no, I don't care, because he was so obviously shoehorned in for marketing/pandering reasons, rather than to actually reinforce a coherent timeline. In fact, as GG and others have mentioned, they've actually taken a step back in tying everything together by once again steamrolling over Appo's established background. And for what? A one line cameo? I would not be surprised at all if Appo's progression from sergeant to commander of the 501st sees no more development. They'll just warp forward to when he's in charge, like how they transitioned between the opening battle and advancing on the

 

Wow. I'm blown away. I watched it again, and I was still blown away.

As far as the entire story, it was good if unsurprising. Gotta take the base, it's hard but eventually they get it. Great technology, if a little over the top at times (caterpillars? really?). The fighters were alien and weird, but beautifully modeled, and their maneuvers were believable and stunning. Visuals are always amazing, and the battle scenes were chaotic and rather frightening. For the most part, what I've come to expect of TCW.

But the character development here was both astounding, and foreboding.

Fives: Really coming along great, here. He seems to be completely uninhibited when it comes to following orders, and while Rex doesn't admit it, it seems to be at the root of their relationship. Fives recognizes that Rex and him do see eye to eye, and that gives him the backbone to directly challenge the good Captain. I'm really glad he brought out the fact that Skywalker would have been leading the men, "not bringing up the rear!" It makes it explicit that it is Krell's leadership style in question, not the Jedi in general.

I will say that I no longer feel Fives is safe in this arc - in fact I almost wonder if Fives' death will be the last straw in Rex's development.

Hardcase: Just pure fun fun fun! Loved everything about him here (his little comment on being 'hyperactive' was almost adorable), and his 'quoting' Han Solo... just so much fun. The fighter attack at the end... just fabulous! "Whoa ho!" "Woo!!"

Appo: Wow, what a way to scare fans. I think Rex is safe, but introducing his (presumable) successor is meant to keep folks on edge. No real characterization (other than being a good clone, asking no questions).

Krell: Same old. They really are overdoing his flaws, I think, though in retrospect I have a feeling his plan all along was to let Rex's men die in an attempt to weaken the enemy for a second wave, repeating the process till victory was obtained. Brutal, but logical, to a degree. I wish they'd make that more explicit - he could still be the 'bad guy' he is, but at least his plan would be coherent.

Clones: Brutal episode, for these guys. I loved seeing Kix helping the wounded (about time we saw the medics at work!), and I loved the varying degrees of displeasure the different clones show, from Dogma who just wants to follow orders, Hardcase who just wants to shoot something, to Jesse and Kix who are somewhere in the middle, unhappy and showing it.

Rex: Epitome of a man in conflict with himself. He really shone here; it's clear that he realizes that he's coming dangerously close to insubordination, and he's trying to make himself (and his men) believe that he is doing the right thing by following Krell's orders. Duty, the cost of victory, etc.

I was honestly a little disappointed when Fives asked him that killer question ("you really believe that, or is that what you were engineered to think?"), and Rex implicitly says yes, though he evades the question a little. You see the effect that POV has on Rex in the ensuing battle, too - when he orders Kix to leave the fallen men, for instance, and Kix even calls him out on it - and it was actually a sad moment.

But it was completely redeemed (in my mind) when Krell essentially repeated exactly what Rex had been saying ("the price for such a victory!"), throwing in a snide insult for good measure, and Rex looks both angry and taken aback. I think that was a defining moment for Rex, realizing that this 'victory at all costs' attitude that Krell possessed was *not* what he believed. Rex's silence at Fives' comment at the end was actually intense, and I think I'm safe in saying Rex silently agreed.

General: Amazing episode, keeping up all the threads both in the last one and from previous seasons, "Ambush", "The Deserter" and "Rookies." Krell's a lost cause, I think, but he's not really the point of the story - it's a refining vat for the clones, sort of a wheat/chaff separation, and I'm all the more excited to see who makes

 

Entertaining episode. I loved those tank designs and fighters (no matter how rip-offs they may be) they suited to environment and GFFA. Crawler-tanks were my fav- I want one of those that design was extremely cool- scary and funny at same time but somehow believable in this context....

Hardcase is an awesome clone btw he received a lot development

Episode's name is not only bad but makes no sense since Krell was not even very important this time.

Krell sucks what comes to anticipating things .... and "501st are the key to this invasion"- I almost forgot that ...

What's up with flaming eyes- is that just odd effect and edit or sign that Krell is darksider?

In fact I think I came up with that first - you understood the airbender-symbol thing and Appa-connection but i said first he may be Appo and even guessed he would be sergeant.... or i dunno if i write it so but i was expecting sergeant Appo and there he was...

Not disturbed by a retcon but it was disturbing Krell called im "Appo" instead of him being CT-1119- that would be for hardcorefans who would then be terrified not only because of retcon but also because of designation...sergeant cannot really be CC though, but why Rex is number for Krell but Appo has a name? That has no internal logic really....

Well in new canon he really raises up ranks a lot but well I have nothing against changing his backstory and I'm glad to see him anyway. He is probably seen more later on because he replaces Rex at some point. But well Rex is still a captain so making Appo sergeant is not the best idea- Rex could've been commander now and Appo new captain...

LOL I just noticed how they made original 501st patterns slightly inaccurate... well patterns in TCW are never right- and Filoni can you explain how does Appo lose his airbender-symbol thingy?


Funny to watch what I said before episode aired :

wrong- it was not really awesome because he didn't do anything

this went right ...

 

Also, was it just my imagination, or did they splice a part of the Metal Gear Solid theme song into the score when Hardcase and Fives were sneaking around the airbase?

 

There was nothing heroic about what Ima-Gun Di did. It was unnecessary, idiotic and a waste of his life and the life of the clones under his command. Their "sacrifice" gained nothing.

There's also nothing cowardly about a General commanding his troops from the behind the lines, in fact it's obvious logic.

Generals are far more valuable than a standard trooper, too valuable to even risk being killed in action.

Krell is a Jedi on top of that, so that makes him even more valuable.

 

Kiner steals some musical cues- that's not new .... or then he somehow accidentally writes songs that have been done before nah he have used a lot of odd musics from totally different franchises and then added them to TCW as "new cues"... Williams would be needed to make this show better.

Uh you really didn't understand that episode then- Ima saved twi'leks who escaped and later helped Windu and his men to victory on Ryloth. Ima did the right thing- sacrifice that saved Ryloth from Tambor's occupation because natives had time to prepare for guerilla warfare....

It was heroic certainly but he took a risk- if twi'leks wouldn't have been able to regroup after all- his life would've been wasted so it could've been waste of life but it was not because twi'leks survived... Jedi are like that sacrificing themselves for greater good- you apparently think it's idiotic but some people consider that heroic- you are entitled to to your opinion but tell what Ima should've done then? What would've been heroic- hiding behind twi'lek women and children? He was about to die anyway but he decided to arrange more time to twi'leks and it was worth it because he was able to keep twi'lek freedom fighters alive that way- only other option would've been let all people die and that would've been idiotic IMO - Tell what he should've done if you have better ideas? What would've been heroic?

Sacrifice in vain is stupid but there was no way to escape and then sacrifice is the right way- twi'leks are republic citizens jedi and clones have promised to protect- they did their job well.

General staying back and far from frontlines is of course not cowardly- not at all. But Krell is not a good general after all he could be replaced with a tactical droid who says "We throw everything we have at them- full forward assault!" and then "stupid ignorant clones" from time to time There is not much ingenuity in his brains to protect- that is why generals should be important- they should think for the troops- prepare working battle tactics. This guy has one tactic and when it fails he is surprised to see how "the resistance was stronger than anticipated"

He could use his subersabers in the frontlines to slice all enemies instead of wasting clones of already almost bankrupt Republic

 

Generals are far more valuable than a standard trooper, too valuable to even risk being killed in action.


Yes but in Star Wars, the Jedi general are the best and strongest fighters in the Grand Army. Krell fighting on the front lines would give them the best chance of victory. But Krell staying out of the fighting is not only cowardly but determental to the battle. Maybe there's a plan that isn't being revealed yet but if there's not, then Krell is a complete idiot who keeps approving plans that are only causing massive casualties. It was Rex's strategy (which Krell violently opposed) that won the day, not anything Krell ordered. I was just waiting for Rex to say frak you and hang up on him.

That being said, this story arc continues to impress. The action was amazing and frantic. Walter Murch did a great job and it's awesome that they got him involved for this episode. The clones really shined here and I'm enjoying the dissention between them. It's understandable from Fives...he lost everyone else in his squad and doesn't want to see it happen to more of his brothers. Rex's portrayel is good here as well. I even like how the natives are being portrayed. We see their faces but they are a deadly threat.

 

And? They have other talents too great to risk losing. We haven't seen Yoda out there fighting much, and he may be the most powerful warrior in the galaxy. Where is he? Sitting on Coruscant. When we do see him leading battles in AOTC and ROTS, where is he at? An observation post. So I guess Yoda is a coward, too. So is Mace Windu, he spends most of the Clone Wars on Coruscant as well.

A short-sighted view.

It's not cowardly at all, it's smart.

This is a different discussion, not related to my point.

It would have been worth it, if it was at all necessary. THEY WOULD HAVE MADE IT ANYWAY.

Maybe you need to watch the episode again, they would have made it without his "last stand". Blowing up the canyon and forcing the droids to take the long way around was all that was necessary. Anything after that was a waste of lives. Even if he wanted to provide extra unnecessary cover, "just in case", he could have left a squad of clone troopers behind and saved his own, far more valuable life. Or just retreat once you've given the Twi'leks as much time as you could without throwing your lives away.

I'm not sure how much explosives they had, but with a little more they could have turned the entire canyon floor into rubble instead of leaving an open path they had to defend.

Ima-Gun Di's death was not heroic, it was an idiotic contrived plot to kill a character they had pre-selected for termination.

 

Things I like and stuff I've noticed so far about the episodes that involve Rex, the clones and Krell

-I think Krell wants the clones to decide for themselves to figure out what to do in situations like whats going on Umbara.
-the 2 clones having fun testing out the Umbaran bubble pod fighter ship thingys
-that weird giant mechanical worm I thought it was an actual giant worm but I think it was a giant mechanical weapon piloted by an Umbaran or whatever?
-Rex and his men still keep on tickin even when their numbers are going down

 

I'm not going to bother replying to this again, but I have to say I'm relieved to know this point-of-view isn't in TCW. I don't even want to imagine what that would be like.

 

If they all would've just retreated droids could've catched them and ALL WOULD'VE BEEN KILLED- but when they made a stand against them Twi'leks gained a promising head-start. Yes maybe it could've been written better, but no one said Ima is a wise tactician- he died heroic death but yeah maybe better general could've saved them all- but it would've been taking a risk as well- retreat takes more time and droids were closing in on them anyway- by attacking them he slowed them down quite a bit- more than defensive stand would have saved time I would think.

I'm not military tactician either but I do understand Ima's choice- he is just a jedi not necessarily a great officer- and jedi tend to be selfless to idiotical extent.

Or maybe he always wanted to die because of his name and saw a chance to do it "heroically"

 

Well this is one of the most ill-informed posts I have ever seen I these boards. You totally misunderstood what Ima-gun did there.

"Supply Lines" sucked but Ima-gun's heroics were very well thought out on a level that I don't think younger viewers would understand. It was a very mature story where sacrifice was the only option (unlike Tarpal's stupid death in "Shadow Warrior").
Here is what happen:
Ima-gun and his clones are few in the numbers and since they are fighting for the Twi'leks, they are the expendables.
They also have only one Gunship left and no aerial forces to help them. Their ships in space have been destroyed.
With this said, Ima-gun decided that instead of flying out of there, he would use the Gunship as a "mine" and blow off one of the pathways and help give more time for the Twi'leks.
In case you didn't notice, the droids had two directions to head onto in the same path. The Gunship destroyed one so the droids had to go around.
No men died but now, no one is leaving the planet.
The Twi'leks are far ahead now but the Droid army is faster than the weakened people. They would soon catch up.
Ima-gun knew they had to hold them off but they had nothing but themselves.
The Jedi and his clones are expendable. So they knew it came down to this. The Twi'leks needed another chance as they were what the Republic was fighting for.
So Ima-gun and the clones went all out fighting. They knew they were going to die but they had to last as a longing distraction for the droid army's march. It worked long enough for the Twi'leks to recieve aid and make it to hidden shelter.

My only problem with Ima-gun's sacrifice is that it wasn't appreciated. Syndulla just kinda became a total dick right there....
That and everyone forgot about him.....

 

^^

Thanks FistoFan55! I knew there was more to Ima-Gun Di's death that what certain people () were postulating, but I couldn't recall the details. And I hate that episode (Jar Jar... grrr..) so I couldn't bring myself to watch it and double check.

That's the thing with heroes, I guess. They tick off the coward within us.

 

Oh, really? Did you even read my post, or is your reading comprehension that poor?

No, it wasn't.

LOL, didn't notice? It's in my comment you quoted! I put it in bold for you.

Watch the episode. The Twi'leks would have made it once the droids had to take the long way around, they didn't need any extra time. In fact, they had time to spare. This is what I've been saying.

He didn't even use all of the clones, he left some of them with the Twi'leks. I can't remember how many clones Di took with him, but I think it was just a handful while the majority stayed with the Twi'leks. The situation wasn't anywhere near as dire as you make it seem.

The distraction was unnecessary, which is what I've been saying all along. Did you even read my comment? You think it was necessary, while I think it was clear that it wasn't, not only to me but it should have been to them.

I also seem to remember one of the clones standing around while the last of the Twi'leks escaped to safety (with the droid army nowhere in sight) and he doesn't even bother radioing in to tell his comrades that they can pull back now.

If they wanted it to seem like the droids were right on the Twi'leks tail, maybe they should have shown that. Maybe they should have had the droids at least in the same screenshot as the Twi'leks even AFTER Di's last stand. Instead, the Twi'leks are escaping (into the mountains, IIRC) and the droids are still fighting Di and the clones like miles away.

 

First off: MAJOR props to Dee Baker for bringing the clones to life. He just puts so much heart into it.

AWESOME finds, Kualan.

I agree with critiques that Krell was overplayed here, and would have liked a bit more of the nuanced 'learn to respect' method we got from the last episode, though I did like the idea that he's not really that great a general but more of an overglorified figure in wartime journalism, something Palpatine would promote for a variety of reasons.
EDIT: To be sure, he probably has some skills, and I do think there are circumstances where his quick high cost strategies might yield more long term ground. Problem is this just isn't the battle for them. I did note that his approach would be a HIT with early-generation clones who were all about sacrificing to achieve objectives, a'la K'Kruhk's troops. XD

But all in all, this is just a really great episode to me. You have a constant war going on with major skirmishes, you have no idea where the characters are going, AND you get great clone development. Also, there's a classic sneak-and-hijack plan, which I felt is another great lift off from Star Wars' adventure roots. XD

Also really noteworthy to me is that this episode jarringly displays and contrasts the humanity and the coldness of the clones. On the one hand, they're having opinions and speaking up. On the other hand, there were those scenes where they're just walking through the desolation and gunning down what's left. I like that Appo is standing by quietly as a contrast to Rex, though I wouldn't know what's going on in his head, and to see the dissent in the ranks and th

 

That is the one thing, if people agree on nothing else. Dee Baker is absolutely earning his pay with this arc. In this arc especially I often forget it's all one guy. Mad props to him for actually pulling it off.

 

I think Dee Bradley Baker has done an adequate, but not exceptional job. It doesn't help that he doesn't sound like Temuera Morrison.

 

Those crawler tanks struck me as familiar but I couldn't place it...but it hit me. The Tunnel Zug from Crimson Skies!

[image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100716134424/crimsonskies/images/1/1c/Tunnelzug.jpg]

 

Of course, ground troops against armored units like the worms and tanks would have been completely obliterated, but that's okay.

 

^Not necessarily- they are smaller, faster and have explosives- and tanks had badly trained pilots obviously.....

Yeah but that's the whole point- they fight jedi because that is their enemy number one and twi'leks have time to escape- explain what do you think Ima should've done?- Droids are closing in on them- even if they go a longer way they still catch twi'leks at some point but that was the whole idea- but when Ima fights them Twi'leks have time to escape and they don't need to fight and then escape with women and children goes faster- it is not that bad plot while Ima's plot may have not been necessarily the ingenious calculation of any kind it makes enough sense they sacrifice themselves- Why Ima would be perfect jedi anyway - maybe he did wrong- all generals make mistakes from time to time. It was not necessarily right decision but calling it "idiotic" is actually saying that we who accept that plot are idiots ....
I think it is believable tactic from a jedi to sacrifice his men to get more time to twi'leks to escape- not necessarily needed sacrifice but whole planet is about to fall to CIS anyway and most of twi'leks were also captured so there is nowhere to escape in any case- without fleet Ima was doomed....

I don't know how you calculate the time used for their escape anyway- no details was told about the terrain, speed of retreat or droids or anything - only that there is few routes for them to use and after one is blocked droids take another one -you cannot know if droids would have been slowed down enough without fighting- you just cannot know it because it was not told in the episode -it is your "what if" speculation....

and btw I liked the episode while Jar Jar's antics were bit over the top ....

 

Was there any reason why Appo couldn't be a Commander?

AFAIK, we haven't seen the Commander of the 501st in TCW.

Rex is a Captain. Ahsoka is a Jedi Commander, which is different(Jedi Commanders can command up to a regiment, equal to 1/4 a legion, alongside a clone commander). Every legion is commanded by a Jedi General and a Senior Clone Commander.

Disregard all of this, TCW doesn't care.

Swash, let's just move on. It's way off topic anyway.

 

I?m not sure why some are assuming that Rex is safe. His appearances in the season four trailers seem to be in footage from the Umbaran episodes. And now that his replacement has shown-up, Rex's days are clearly numbered.

After ?Darkness on Umbara,? I thought that Krell might be order 66?ed by the fourth episode. If Rex is killed during this campaign, he?s definitely dead meat.