The development of Kyp Durron (Rebirth Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JediMasterAaron, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. A Smuggler's Spin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 3
    Thank you all, I don't need any of you telling me what war is, and what it involves. I fully know that people die in war, I know it very. Your willing to just let them die, i'm not. Dying is part of the reality, but any military branch will tell you that just because they know people are going to ddie, that they do not do everything they can to make sure that the number who die is as small as it can be.

    You all seem to just think these people are ready to die, that thier families will just go on, oh yea it was war, whatcha going to do? I take it a bit more serioulsy. Kyp doesn't take the lives he holds serioulsy. If they die to accomplish his goals, well then good, they helped. If that doesn't show how far Kyp is from being a jedi, and just how close he is to the Dark Side, then i do not know what will.

    They are in a war, and so therefor any rule should be broken just to win. Winning isn't everything, in fact its nothing. No one ever wins in a war, so if your trying your doomed to fail.

    Both JMA and I have shown numerous things Kyp has said, done, and otherwise to show our side. The only thing I see from you is "Oh Luke did this, and he was right." and it wasn't aggression.

    I've shown you exactly how it was aggressive. How he didn't even attempt any other solution, he went right to attack. I also have shown that his "defense" did more harm than good. Its cut the Jedi off even further, and made the only military in the galaxy will be a lot more weary to allow Jedi to help them in thier fight. If he was really defending, he would have thought a few things out.

    I've said before this isn't really a topic to discuss how bad Luke and Mara and Han have been, it's about Kyp, perhaps we've discussed Kyp as far as we can and it will morph into these other areas. I believe I have proven my point. Your free to disagree.

    Clear Skies
  2. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    <<<They are in a war, and so therefor any rule should be broken just to win. Winning isn't everything, in fact its nothing. No one ever wins in a war, so if your trying your doomed to fail.>>>

    That's all well and true but you certainly can LOSE a war and in this case the Vong aren't just going to decide to live peacefully with the citizens of the GFFA. The Vong won't stop until all the infidels are either slaves or dead. Sorry but the GFFA cannot afford to lose this war as if they do there won't be a GFFA.
  3. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    Sorry. Mysterious double post.
  4. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    ---
    Kyp doesn't take the lives he holds serioulsy
    ---

    Prove it


    ---
    I've said before this isn't really a topic to discuss how bad Luke and Mara and Han have been, it's about Kyp, perhaps we've discussed Kyp as far as we can and it will morph into these other areas
    ---

    Ah, but it IS about them. If people are going to say Kyp is bad for doing similar to others, then people who disagree are fully entitled to defend him
  5. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "You all seem to just think these people are ready to die, that thier families will just go on, oh yea it was war, whatcha going to do? I take it a bit more serioulsy. Kyp doesn't take the lives he holds serioulsy. If they die to accomplish his goals, well then good, they helped. If that doesn't show how far Kyp is from being a jedi, and just how close he is to the Dark Side, then i do not know what will."

    Prove it. Who are you to profess that you know what Kyp is thinking. He takes their lives very seriously. They were his friends. Did you notice how devastated he was when his whole squadron died in VP. And he takes all the precautions he possibly can to keep them alive. Sometimes it's just not enough.

    "They are in a war, and so therefore any rule should be broken just to win. Winning isn't everything, in fact its nothing. No one ever wins in a war, so if your trying your doomed to fail."

    If they lose there will be nothing left in the galaxy. And it's not a rule to not fight back against an extraglactic invasion force bent on te extinction of the entire galaxy. It's the necessary thing to do and it should be against the law to not do it.

    "Both JMA and I have shown numerous things Kyp has said, done, and otherwise to show our side. The only thing I see from you is "Oh Luke did this, and he was right." and it wasn't aggression."

    Yeah, and everything he did was designed to save the galaxy from the Vong. How about attacking Endor: aggression, shooting at the Death Star: aggression, killing stormtroopers: aggression, trekking through hand of thrawn killing chiss: aggression, lots of other stuff from almost every single book: aggression.

    "I've shown you exactly how it was aggressive. How he didn't even attempt any other solution, he went right to attack."

    All other solutions and there weren't many were attempted. They killed Elegos ending the solution of compromise. When someone wants to kill everybody in a galaxy the only solution is to fight back and attack them.
  6. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    "Ah, but it IS about them. If people are going to say Kyp is bad for doing similar to others, then people who disagree are fully entitled to defend him "

    i agree, I don't see how they fail to see that. Evidence of kyp's lack of wrongdoing, of similar precedents set by other respected jedi, and common sense have been shown and yet all kyp devotees get is rude patronizing. Like we're all mindless, violent wrestling fans or something. The anti-kyp side has been spouting so much propaganda. Civilian ships. babies dying. kyp's addicted to power. kyp doesn't think things through. kyp's the next emperor. kyp's pure evil incarnate. all of kyp's lines have subliminal messages when the audion tapes are played backwars... etc. Okay the last couple are only jokes but the rest represents most of the rhetoric from the paralysis side.

    risk analogy, excellent. Rolling 3 dice is better than 2, attackers almost always have an advantage in battle. Do we wait to attack every single ship that comes out of the shipwomb, or take it out before it's even ready. All this flew through kyp's mind in a split second and he made the correct choice with the data present and his choice still holds up in hindsight.
  7. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "risk analogy, excellent."

    Thanks.
  8. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    But guys, you have to remember that Luke hs now become far more philisophical. Kyp's dialogue in Conquest was right on the money.

    I think the thing is that Luke has always been used as the moral compass in the books. Luke's morals have changed, but does this mean that what is good and what is bad have changed in absolutist terms? No. Luke and his adherents (especially Mara and Corran) have just come to embrace a different set of parameters for what is good and what is evil. The entire Skywalker/Solo clan seems to have adopted this new viewpoint.

    Kyp hasn't. Kyp is still going by the viewpoint of the Luke Skywalker of old. The Luke Skywalker who destroyed a Death Star, Palpatine, Thrawn and inflicted massive damage upon the Empire (killing hundreds of thousands of humans in the process) was doing good and never paused to get into an angst-filled moral debate.

    This was 'old' good. The NJO is 'new' good. While Luke and Co. have embraced the philosophy of 'new' good, Kyp and his adherents are still clinging to 'old' good.
  9. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Good" doesn't change. Luke just got old and tired of fighting. He became scared of and tired of war. War is horrible, which is way many commanders and officers retire after one. The next one that comes though still has to be fought, especially this one where the consequence of losing will be extinction and the destruction of the GFFA as we know it.
  10. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    No, "good" and "evil" as abstract terms do not change, but one's perceptions of what is "good" and "evil" certainly can change over time. This is what has happened. "Old" good was the way of looking at it for the films and the Bantam-era EU, while 'new' good is the NJO.

    "Old" good is for the real heroes, while "new" good is for those who are still good, but they're just tired of fighting the good fight, if you will.
  11. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    It's just I consider attacking and fighting off an extragalactic invasion intent on the destruction of the entire known and unknown galaxy to be a good thing.
  12. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    As do I. Its one of the most noble and honorable actions that could be done.
  13. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    if mara hadn't of "set him straight on a few things" this wouldn't be a problem at all and the vong would be running scared. His moral compass got a little too close to a powerful magnet and got screwed up.
  14. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Hey everyone.

    Wow, this thread is rapidly approaching 200 posts. I've created a monster! ;-) I hope this thread doesn't drop too far into hostility, and can stay within the realm of positive and constructive arguing. It's been several hours since I posted, so I missed out on quite alot, and I'll try to catch up now.

    Someone was asking where the evidence was that Kyp Durron likes to show off, other than Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin's comments. It's in Vector Prime. He and his Dozen took off to a blare of war music and intricate flight patterns, designed to impress the crowd. Kyp is an excellent pilot, and extremely powerful in the Force. He's very proud of both, and likes being admired. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

    Kyp didn't just admit that he might be a bit attracted by the lure of leadership...he admitted that he was addicted to the feeling leadership provides. No matter what you think of Luke, you have to admit that he would willingly give up leadership if it meant the NR winning the war. I don't have any evidence, other than the books and what they say about Kyp's character, but I really can't see him doing this.

    The main reason that I disagree with Kyp is the fact that he seems to reach for his lightsaber first and ask questions later. To me, Kyp is at the exact opposite end of the spectrum from Jacen in the Scale of Jedi Aggression, with Anakin being right in the middle. Someone put it best when saying that "It's a Jedi's responsibility to do all they can to have violence be a last resort". I honestly don't feel Kyp is doing this. Some of you say that in war it's necessary. Yes, I agree. Attacking is an absolute necessity in any war if you are to win, and needs to be first and foremost on the minds of the military personnel...with the exception of the Jedi Knights. I explained my theory on what I think needs to be done in an earlier post. As I've said, it's largely a matter of semantics, but then again, dealing with the Force seems to be that much of the time. What it comes down to is that I don't feel Kyp's methods are correct in achieving his goal. He's letting his actions be warning enough, and I just don't think that's good enough. He's demonstrated that he's, at least recently, been acting on the emotions of anger and revenge, and nobody can argue the point that that IS of the Dark Side.

    I need to clear something up here. I am not totally pro-Luke, not by a long shot. I feel that Luke Skywalker is committing almost as great of crimes as Kyp Durron, just by doing nothing at all. Jacen is even lower on my list of Jedi than Kyp is. Not using the Force...he's not a Jedi, and in my opinion, I hope he bites the big one in SbS, because he's a useless character at this point. Anyway, back to Luke. I just think that Luke is a lesser evil, because he's not feeding off the Dark Side while doing it. I personally think that Anakin has it right. If anything, I'm pro-Anakin.

    Yeah, Luke did use the Dark Side at the end of Rebirth, and I honestly didn't think of that. It was wrong of him to do so. But saying that it is any way WORSE than what Kyp did...well, that's going a bit too far, mainly because Luke's attack on the Vong virus didn't result in the death of thousands of Vong civilians (And yes, they are civilians, even Kyp calls them such).


    Anyway, I think that's all for now. Keep it up! Great discussion!

    JMA
  15. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    This is just a random thought I had, but let's say Luke decided it was time to act. Can he really give the Vong an ultimatum (by a mass transmission as stated earlier) while the Vong and the NR are technically at a cease-fire? Wouldn't that just provoke the Vong into doing more damage? We all know the Vong ARE doing damage and have no plans on stopping with the elmination of the Jedi but still. Anyway that's just a crazy thought I had.
  16. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    It's an excellent thought, with one question: Is the cease fire official, or is it more an instance of the Vong reloading and repleneshing? Either way, I think Luke just needs to issue a mass call to the Vong, saying "Look, this is your last chance to leave peacefully. If you choose to deny it, the Jedi will be forced into taking violent measures." Seems to satisfy the Jedi Code best.

    JMA
  17. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "He and his Dozen took off to a blare of war music and intricate flight patterns, designed to impress the crowd."

    Propaganda. They need more recruits to defeat the Vong and that stuff looks cool. It'll make people want to join.

    "he admitted that he was addicted to the feeling leadership provides."

    He said maybe he was when talking to Jaina because he didn't feel like arguing, which shows some maturity to just concede to Jaina and everyone likes that feeling anyway. He's not letting it dictate his actions.

    "and foremost on the minds of the military personnel...with the exception of the Jedi Knights. I explained my theory on what I think needs to be done in an earlier post. As I've said, it's largely a matter of semantics, but then again, dealing with the Force seems to be that much of the time."

    You never did concisely state what should be done once the warning is ignored and not only will it be ignored, it wil be mocked. Once again, a double standard. The NR military can attack, but the Jedi cannot.

    " I personally think that Anakin has it right. If anything, I'm pro-Anakin."

    Anakin is doing the same thing as Kyp only on a smaller scale because he doesn't have the resources. Trekking across Yavin killing Vong and taking captured Peace Brigade members and threatening them if they don't do what he tells them to do. Assaulting a Vong "village" or whatever, where they had their shapers. If you are pro-Anakin then you must be pro-Kyp.
  18. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    And I still don't think Luke used the darkside at the end.

    He was trying to cure a disease and save 2 lives. The description is meant to show how desperate he was and how hard he was trying, not that he was using the darkse, which is just a metaphor anyway, as there is no such manifestation as the darkside anyway. It's metaphoric.
  19. jedi-jeff Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 3
    Overall I sympathize with Kyp and views on the Jedi. However, this does make up for his poor judgment in handling the intelligence he gathered on the Vong. No one has made a convincing argument on why he had to lie in order convince the fleet to attack the shipwomb. Admiral Kre?fey was already planning to attack the shipwomb even before they received the additional intelligence on the worldship provided by Kyp. Therefore, the view by some that the fleet would not have attacked unless prodded by the urgency of a super weapon under construction is not a valid reason for his deception. I suspect even if he told them the truth about the so called worldship, Admiral Kre?fey would still had launched the attack and destroyed the worldship since it still could possibly serve a military function even if it was not a super weapon. Besides Admiral Kre?fey would certainly view the shipwomb and everything in it as legitimate military targets based on the limited intelligence on Vong ship designs and possible roles. Kyp seems to think that he is the only who knows how to fight a war and that Admiral Kre?fey would not make a tough decision if he had told him the truth which is absurd and arrogant.

    Kyp has shown himself to be very capable in gathering intelligence. If he had been honest with Admiral Kre?fey, this would have established his bona fides as an intelligence asset. He could have then played a vital role gathering badly needed intelligence on the Vong that could make the difference between victory and defeat. As a result of his stupid and unnecessary deception, any future information that he gathers will not be taken seriously.

    For example, lets suppose Kyp discovers the location where Nim Yen is creating some sort of doomsday weapon. Why should anyone believe him and who would even listen to him, certainly not Admiral Kre?fey or Wedge. The worst problem with Kyp?s deceptions and lies are that they were shoot-yourself-in-the-foot deceptions and lies.
  20. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "The NR military can attack, but the Jedi cannot"

    Of course it's a double standard, I'm not arguing with that. But as I've said, it's the way it has to be, simply because the NR military can't use the Force in their decisions. I think some of you are discounting how much that adds into the equation. Look at what just two Dark Side users did to an entire galaxy. We're talking about several hundred here.

    Also, I kinda thought it was just be inferred that once the warning was rejected, then the Jedi would be free to attack the Vong, because then violence would be their last option.

    Being pro-Anakin is nothing like being pro-Kyp. This is best shown in the fact that Anakin doesn't agree with Kyp, at least not wholly. I don't agree with Kyp either, at least not wholly. Would Kyp have tried to simply disarm the Peace Brigaders that killed Kelbis Nu? Would Kyp have stopped Tahiri from killing the policemen? Would Kyp have warned the Peace Brigaders on Yavin IV? While I can't look into Kyp's mind and pick out the answer, I can infer that by his past actions, the answer would be no. Also, I think your assumption on who has more resources at his disposal is off. Anakin has FAR more resources than Kyp does, and for several reasons:

    1) He's a Solo and a Skywalker. He's from an important, and more importantly to this situation, extremely wealthy family. He's got contacts within the military that can get him what he needs, when he needs it.

    2) He's viewed as some sort of paragon by most of the younger generation of Jedi. I'd say having a gaggle of Force-sensitives at your command is much better than finding the best pilots you can while on the run, and throwing them into your squadron.

    3) Anakin isn't near as universally hated or feared as Kyp is.

    JMA
  21. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    <<<Is the cease fire official, or is it more an instance of the Vong reloading and repleneshing?>>>

    I don't think the NR sanctions it but the Vong have said that they won't continue their invasion while Jedi are being killed or delivered to them. It's more of an unspoken agreement since Borsk doesn't want to officially and/or totally turn against the Jedi.

    I suppose in the end it doesn't really matter. Coruscant is heavily rumored (it still hasn't been completely confirmed) so it's not like the unofficial cease-fire lasts much longer anyway.
  22. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Look at what just two Dark Side users did to an entire galaxy. We're talking about several hundred here."

    Attacking an extragalactic invasion force intent on the extermination of everybody in the galaxy will not make them fall to the "darkside". If anything this great deed will push them further into the "lightside." I think you read my thread about the force, so you know where I stand on that. And I just think that if the Jedi cannot do anything in situations like this then what was even the point of including them in Star Wars. Jedi attacked armies before and didn't fall to the "darkside." Why would they now?

    "He's a Solo and a Skywalker. He's from an important, and more importantly to this situation, extremely wealthy family. He's got contacts within the military that can get him what he needs, when he needs it. "

    They're not wealthy. They have barely any money. Leia lost her official position as chief of state a while ago and really the newsenators don't like her much. He has no contacts in the military now that Jaina has been blacklisted. Plus his Uncle Luke is now a semi-outlaw. Plus he is still younger than the legal age - just a child in the
    eyes of many people.

    "He's viewed as some sort of paragon by most of the younger generation of Jedi. I'd say having a gaggle of Force-sensitives at your command is much better than finding the best pilots you can while on the run, and throwing them into your squadron."

    They are mostly the ones who aren't fully trained and as you saw in Conquest not only weren't they much help, they slowed Anakin down, gave him kids to worry about, and frankly made it tougher on him.

    "Anakin isn't near as universally hated or feared as Kyp is."

    The masses love Kyp because he is defending them, taking the fight to the Vong. It is true that they also love Anakin, however, cause he does much of the same stuff.

    "Would Kyp have tried to simply disarm the Peace Brigaders that killed Kelbis Nu? Would Kyp have stopped Tahiri from killing the policemen? Would Kyp have warned the Peace Brigaders on Yavin IV?"

    He probably would have stopped the killing of the policeman. He probably would have wrned them too if only cause it would be easier if they surrendered. Disarming them, I'm not sure, but Kelbis Nu did die with that strategy and Anakin and Tahiri were arrested, which I don't get. They probably could have gotten away and saved themselves and Corran a lot of trouble and they probably wouldn't have had to kill anybody to accomplish it, though maybe would have had to injure people.
  23. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "Plus his Uncle Luke is now a semi-outlaw."

    But, as Rogue Squadron shows, that has nothing to do with where loyalties lie. Admiral Kre'fey, Wedge, Gavin...all of these still side with Luke and the Jedi, and would provide whatever Anakin needs in his fight against the Vong.

    I also don't think that Kyp would have warned the Peace Brigaders, considering he doesn't warn the Vong. He regards the Brigaders as lower than the Vong, because they're of this galaxy and hunting their last defenders.

    JMA

    EDIT:

    "And I just think that if the Jedi cannot do anything in situations like this then what was even the point of including them in Star Wars. "

    It's not that they can't. In fact, it's their duty to do so. They just have to make sure that certain conditions are met, and that it's a well thought out plan. I just think that for Jedi, violence should be the last alternative, rather than the first answer, just because it's easiest.

    JMA
  24. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "But, as Rogue Squadron shows, that has nothing to do with where loyalties lie. Admiral Kre'fey, Wedge, Gavin...all of these still side with Luke and the Jedi, and would provide whatever Anakin needs in his fight against the Vong."

    They can't do that. It would be political suicide. Maybe he could help him a little, but even giving him half a fighter squad would be a highly questionable act in the Senate. They could lose their commission. plus Gavin only leads 1 squadron. Not mch there. Wedge isn't even in the armed force anymore (at least not officially and so officially has no power at all and so he can't give Ani anything.

    "I also don't think that Kyp would have warned the Peace Brigaders, considering he doesn't warn the Vong. He regards the Brigaders as lower than the Vong, because they're of this galaxy and hunting their last defenders."

    Well that's what you think. But the Vong didn't warn him when they killed his squad and nearly him. And how is he supposed to. They don't have comlinks. And I can't remember for sure, but he may have shouted a warning at them to get out of his way or something when he boarded their ship to rescue Wurth Skidder.

    "It's not that they can't. In fact, it's their duty to do so. They just have to make sure that certain conditions are met, and that it's a well thought out plan. I just think that for Jedi, violence should be the last alternative, rather than the first answer, just because it's easiest."

    I believe this too, but it's time to pull out the las alternative because nothing else has worked or will work. The Vong are very devoted to their religion and their religion requires them to "cleanse" this galaxy. Or rather kill all living sentient beings eccept the ones for slaves and destroy all technology. Not good for the galaxy's current inhabitants.
  25. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    kyp:control, permission for flyboy

    control:denied

    vrooooooooooooooommmm


    control:stang! i spilled hot caffe in my lap!
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