The flow of Anakin's character from TPM to AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SLR, Oct 22, 2003.

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  1. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    So this is what you're basing all those Jedi rules on?
    You have quite an imagination to go from this to the Jedi arent allowed to love, see their parents, contact anyone etc...


    So ever thing I said is only imagination. [face_plain] If that's the case then I'm done. Your going to say ever thing I came up with to be imaginer well I don't hhave much to debait with you about then.

    "We are encouraged to love everyone.

    No he makes that up with when he says Compassion. He uses that to make it sound like the are allowed to love. They are not allowed to fall in love.

    Compassion and love are two different things.

    Like Luke going after his friends or Anakin after his mother

    Those were both big mistakes on there parts. Anakin should not have gone after his mother. Luke should not have gone after Han and Leia. Luke had mroe importent things to do. As much as he loves his friends he was goind to throw ever thing away just to save them.

    The Jedi don't work that way. That's way Anakin can't and is not allowed to see his mom. Because it is him saying that he cares more for her then for the greater good of the galaxy.
  2. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1

    Ani,

    What I'm saying is that what you say are the rules of the Jedi: no love, can't contact parents, they are brought into the orders as infants etc... Isn't based on what is shown or said in the movie. I'm not sure where you get it from but it's not canon (which is the movies).

    You may be perfectly correct according to your source. I go strictly by whats in the movies. All we know for sure is that age of 9 is too old to be trained (except if your Anakin or Luke), attachements are not allowed. Thats it!!! Everything else is speculative or from EU.

    I disagree that love is not compassion. Compassion is love for all beings. It's not possessive in nature. An evil person is always lacking in compassion but could love an individual fiercly, ie Anakin loves Padme but doesnt have compassion for the tusken children.

    I also disagree that Obi-Wan loves Qui-Gon less than Anakin loves Shmi. Obi-Wan lived everyday with Qui-Gon from the age of 13-25 (12 years). Anakin was with Shmi for 9 years and didnt see her for 10 years. He doesnt bother to see her in all that time even though there's nothing to keep him from at least contacting her. I'm sure going to Tattoine isnt that easy.

    I further disagree that Jedi can't fall in love. As long as they can control their feelings there is nothing really stopping them. I think it would be difficult for them, just as it's difficult for career soldiers in the special forces. They dedicate themselves to their duty and do alot of secretive missions that keep them away from home for months and even years at a time. Even more of hindrance is that the jedi can't offer the other person anything in exchange, because they arent allowed permanent attachments (marriage). So it's a difficult rope to walk and probably most don't even attempt it or avoid getting involved. However they are human and are not celibates so I'm sure relationships do exist.
  3. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "I wouldn't call it luck at all. Luke was more pure of heart than his father. Because, ironically, he was raised by good simple folk.

    To use outside knowledge for a moment. Everything we know about the Sith indicates that they turn to the Dark Side for power. Parents have nothing to do with it.

    If anything, it's the lack of LOVE that makes Jedi turn to the Dark Side."


    Infact it was Anakin and Lukes love/attachment for one another that ultimate saved them and destroyed the emperor.

    "Qui-gon is not a father. He's a master a very good one at that. Anakin lossing his mother is a bad thing because:

    A) He is to set in his ways because of his mother.

    B) He has a Attachment to his mother.

    Obi-wan well he may see Qui-gon as a father. He knows that Qui-gon is just his master."


    How is Obi-wan any less attached to Qui-gon. If Obi-wan has never had a family outside of the jedi then Qui-gon is his father in all ways but blood. Obi-wan spent at least as much time under qui-gons care as Anakin spent in the care of his mothers. And Obi-wan is pretty set in his ways if you ask me.

    "he can't contact her. He is not allowed. Because he is not allowed to have attachments to the people he loves."

    But we see several times that Anakin breaks the rules whenever it suites him.

    "So ever thing I said is only imagination. If that's the case then I'm done."

    Somehow I doubt it, but I'll hold out hope nonetheless.

    "Your going to say ever thing I came up with to be imagin{ary} well I don't have much to debate with you about then."

    Well if you can find some hard facts to back up your claims then we can debate, but until then its just wild speculation on your part. If the movie fails to provide the info then that is the problem that we have been talking about.
  4. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    Compassion and love are two different things.
    Love and attachment are different things. To love and to be in love/fall in love are different things.

    Like Luke going after his friends or Anakin after his mother

    Those were both big mistakes on there parts.

    They were - from a certain point of view.

    Anakin should not have gone after his mother.
    He should not abandon his duty. But he should not let Shmi die "incomplete". The Jedi should let him see his mother. (BTW he could've learned to let her go more easily if they did...too bad Qui-Gon died and too bad Obi-Wan was nothing like him)

    Luke should not have gone after Han and Leia. Luke had mroe importent things to do. As much as he loves his friends he was goind to throw ever thing away just to save them.
    Well, he did what he thought is right. He trusted his feelings. That is the way of the Jedi as much as doing his duty. So which one should be stronger? For me the whole OT is about how the friendship of them four (or six, including the droids) saved the Galaxy. I think one thing that Luke never learned is not to help his friends. And that was the point he's proven the wise Yoda wrong (or at leas proven that's not the only valid point of view), because his strength was in his friends as much as in the Force. So while his decision to leave was reckless and unwise, somewhat arrogant,i wouldn't say it was a huge mistake.

    That's way Anakin can't and is not allowed to see his mom. Because it is him saying that he cares more for her then for the greater good of the galaxy.
    Is it? How does Anakin going and seeing his mother hurt the greater good of the Galaxy? If he does it with permission, not in the middle of an assignment, of course.
  5. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    If Luke had not gone to Cloud city he would not have learned that Vader was his father, and then may never have tried to redeem him.

    But your right, the Jedi should just have let Anakin see his mom, or better yet done something free her. They are suppose to be the good guys right?
  6. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    "Well if you can find some hard facts to back up your claims then we can debate, but until then its just wild speculation on your part. If the movie fails to provide the info then that is the problem that we have been talking about."

    I backed up ever thing I said with facts. You don't agree with me fine. But to say that I don't have facts and I just thought them well...

    Oh and I'm done with hanbaby.

  7. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    ani
    Anakin should not have gone after his mother. Luke should not have gone after Han and Leia. Luke had mroe importent things to do. As much as he loves his friends he was goind to throw ever thing away just to save them.

    It seems obvious to me that Anakin should've gone to help his mother sooner, she might still be alive if he had.
    And Luke certainly did the right thing in trying to rescue Han and Leia. The theme of friendship winning out over power is clear to me in the OT.
    The mistake Anakin makes is giving in to hate. Luke almost makes that mistake too.

    The Jedi don't work that way. That's way Anakin can't and is not allowed to see his mom. Because it is him saying that he cares more for her then for the greater good of the galaxy.

    So how come Yoda decides to save Obi and Anakin rather than stop Dooku? It seems even the great jedi master doesn't even follow this rule.

    Helping those that you love isn't a weakness, Luke proves this, it's allwing yourself to be consumed with hate, anger etc. which is the problem.

    g
  8. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    It seems obvious to me that Anakin should've gone to help his mother sooner, she might still be alive if he had

    How he was with Obi-wan train and going on missions. When would he have had the time? When not training. The Jedi would not let him do that. When he went on his first mission by himself he was at last able to do that.
  9. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Ani is right. Basing on the movie, it was Anakin's first assignment on his own. Thus, he couldn't escape earlier from his Jedi training and work with Obi Wan to save his mother.

    Later Anakin blames Obi Wan for holding him back, which of course is incorrect of Anakin to think so. Obi Wan follows the rules "we will do as the Council has intructed".

    Speaking of the "too old" bit, if you see the Younglings, they seem to be even younger than Anakin from TPM.





  10. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    . When he went on his first mission by himself he was at last able to do that.

    He was with Padme on Naboo for a couple of days. Had he left to save his mother a couple of days earlier....

    g
  11. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Thus, he couldn't escape earlier from his Jedi training and work with Obi Wan to save his mother.

    Later Anakin blames Obi Wan for holding him back, which of course is incorrect of Anakin to think so. Obi Wan follows the rules "we will do as the Council has intructed"."


    But If the jedi prevented ANakin from freeing his mom then it IS their fault.
  12. Jainalover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    I have to agree with Rebel Scum. That thought has also been on my mind and I think the Jedi Council would never have allowed him to free his mother or the others at any point in his training. And who can really be sure he did not ask them at some point in the ten years since he was freed himself? He may have or asked Obi Wan to approach the council members about this. And if he did then I am certain they would have said no. We are not saying the jedi are repsonsible for his fall but they certainly did play a part on it even if indirectly. By not letting him take a leave of absence he began to be assaulted by horrible visions of his mother's suffering. So in the middle of his first solo assignment he up and left for Tattooine once the dreams got worse. And the jedi cannot really blame him.
  13. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    He was with Padme on Naboo for a couple of days. Had he left to save his mother a couple of days earlier....

    He was on his first solo mission. No Obi-wan, no other Jedi master just him a Jedi in training.
  14. Jainalover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    Are you really suprised he left once Obi Wan was no longer around?
  15. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Are you really suprised he left once Obi Wan was no longer around?

    ?[face_plain] No because as long as Obi-wan was there Anakin had to do what he said. As long as the Jedi Council was also giving him orders he had to do what they said.

    Padme helped give him away around those though. That and being on his first mission with out Obi, and the JC sure helped.
  16. Jainalover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    It seems we are in agreement then.
  17. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1
    I bave ti agree with Rebel Scum. That thought has also been on my mind and I think the Jedi Council would never have allowed him to free his mother otr the others at any point in his training. And who can really be sure he did not ask them at some point in the ten years since he was freed himself? He may have or asked Obi Wan to approach the council members about this. And if he did then I am certain they would have said no. We are not saying the jedi are repsonsible for his fall but they certainly did play a part on it even if indirectly.

    Why do you think they wouldnt allow him to contact his mother. What do you base that on? Is that just speculation or based on facts? There doesn't seem IMO anywhere in the movies that says this or infers it. It just seems to be a belief born out of EU sources ie: Jedi Apprentice books by JUde Watson. (( THESE ARE NOT CANNON AND DO NOT COUNT)).

    HOw do the Jedi play a part in his fall? This is a great opinion but again seems like wishful thinking or a copout by an Anakin fan who can't accept that the guy is just a rotten egg from the start.

    Also Qui-Gon would have been the worst master Anakin could ever have had. The man broke rules left and right and was the most arrogant Jedi of them all. He'd have never gotten anywhere with the undisciplined Anakin.

    So how come Yoda decides to save Obi and Anakin rather than stop Dooku? It seems even the great jedi master doesn't even follow this rule.

    What rule? What does saving Obi-Wan and Anakin have to do with no attachments. Yoda loves all beings. If it had been Padme or anyone he'd have saved them. Thats compassion.

    Helping those that you love isn't a weakness, Luke proves this, it's allwing yourself to be consumed with hate, anger etc. which is the problem.

    Exactly. The Jedi love everyone. They value every sentient being equally. Luke proves this by not allowing attachment but by not giving into hate. In ROTJ, Sidious taunts Luke and says your friends are going to die. He feeds Lukes hatred over his friends certain death and is almost at the brink of defeating Vader when he gains control and throws away his light-saber and accepts his fate. Exactly what Anakin couldnt do.

    YOda advises Luke not to go to his friends not because of attachment but because as he says: "This is very dangerous time in your training." I really dont see anywhere in the movies that the Jedi are against relationships or love or loyalty. Attachment I think is referring to the attitude of possession.

    Ani, does that mean I win? (I'm not sure if your referring to me or the person you were responding to, which wasnt me. Either way Oh well)
  18. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Ani, does that mean I win?

    Your not ever hearing me out. Ever thing I have posted came right from the movie. And you just dismess it as EU or say I'm making it up. So if your going to do that I'm done having a debit with you.

    So you don't win anything.
  19. Jainalover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    Hanbaby no one has mentioned EU as far as I know of. Certainly not me. I am making my assumptions from obvious speculation in regards to the ten years between the first two movies. It is my belief and that is that. You are of course entitled to your own beliefs.
  20. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    "This is very dangerous time in your training."

    Just one last thing. Yoda never said that. Obi-wan said that.

    attachment
    n 1: a feeling of affection for a person or an institution

    Well that sloves that.
  21. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1
    Ani,

    I'm not being purposefully dense, I promise. This is for real. I dont see what examples you have given that supports the following propositions;

    1, Jedi are taken as infants
    2. Jedi are not allowed to contact their families
    3. Jedi are never allowed to see their parents.
    4. Jedi can never love and have close loving relationships.

    What I've seen you give examples of or what I myself have seen in the movies is the following:
    1. Jedi should not be trained over the age of 8 (some age that is never mentioned)
    2. Jedi are not allowed to form attachements.
    3. Jedi must request permission to travel and for other sundry non duty related activities (something like that since Padme's one line is very ambiguous).
    4. Jedi must live in the temple (not sure but it's the closest I could come up with for Anakin's line "or be with the one you love").
    5. Jedi love unconditionally and have compassion for all.
    6. Jedi have close relationships with their masters that closely resemble a parent/child bond
    7. Jedi hurt when a loved one dies.
    8. Jedi fight for the ones they love.
    9. Jedi get angry, laugh, cry, rant and rave and make mistakes

  22. Jainalover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    I believe I will stay out of this conversatiion as I have made my meaning clear already. The two of you may debate this to your heart's content. I do not think it is something that will ever be resolved. It is a matter of personal interpretation you see and neither of you is likely to back dowm from your current stand. So I fold.
  23. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    no message. On 2nd thought no were just going to have to agree to disagee here ok.
  24. hanbaby Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
    star 1
    Ani,

    Do you know who writes that stuff in the StarWars.com? It's fans, it's not George Lucas. It's not in the scripts. It's not cannon. It's just stuff that they make up to fill in the gaps, which was my point all along. It is EU. It has changed many times over the years everytime George proves them wrong with something thats in the movies.

    If you wish to use it fine, but then the question needs to be asked. How many of the millions of people who go to Star Wars movies ever come to these boards and how many go to StarWars.com? Not many, we my friend are in the very very miniscule minority. Thats why it's all non-canon, the audience never sees it.

    Therefore George Lucas must create a film that makes sense to the masses. To the general public who will never know that SW.com says that Jedi are taken as infants, the only thing they know is that the age of 9 is too old. This goes for everything else you have dug up from that fan website. It doesnt count, regarding this topic especially.

    I'll remind you this topic is concerning why Anakin's persona and characterization in TPM doesn't transfer well to his seemingly totally different characterization in AOTC. The questions being asked are: Why did a sweet kid from tatooine suddenly turn into such a jerk in AOTC. There is no explanation given in the movie.

    Edit: Okay but I'll leave my response up.

  25. Jainalover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    I wonder why a few posts seem to be missing from here. But then I am not really here at all so it is of no concern of mine..........
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