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MOD The OFFICIAL Comments, Complaints, and Suggestions Thread-(*Currently Discussing: Holiday Season*)

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by Rox, May 31, 2002.

Moderators: Corellian_Outrider
  1. Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2001
    star 4

    It's not? Sounds like it to me.
  2. odj_310388 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 5
    Quite frankly, I feel the PM was way out of line. We in no way were attacking the artist.

    If you were in no way attacking him then how did you all suddernly appear to be in the thread discussing it?

    Btw I'd invite you three to come to my thread and do the same since my clone wars pictures need to scrutinized if what you say in your posts is true. Go to every thread which has photo-manipulated images or referenced or traced images and say the same thing as you did in his thread, THEN I will belive that you were not attacking him.

    And since you seem to have brought the private message I sent to you onto the open forum withought my permission you might as well also state that I sent it to you three.
  3. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Then you're reading something into my posts that isn't there. Because I've been clear about what the issue is here. Go back and read the threads I posted and read my posts in this thread.

    It's about HONESTY.


    I quoted it anonymously to launch a discussion about intellectual and artistic honesty. I didn't need your permission. YOU chose to out yourself as the author.

    -Otis
  4. odj_310388 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 5
    I quoted it anonymously to launch a discussion about intellectual and artistic honesty. I didn't need your permission.

    The contents of which I wrote in private to you and 2 other members, it should have been kept private.
  5. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    No problem. I edited the PM portion out of my post.

    The rest of the discussion is relevant and I hope it continues.

    -Otis
  6. Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2001
    star 4
    HONESTY. Right, fine. Congrats for upholding the sanctity of Art. Now back to this individual you ground into the dust to do that. Do you even care what happens now? If he ever does come back, you gonna put him through this litmus test again?
  7. Darth_ArsnL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 2
    DOTF is right- while commenting did you take into consideration how this would affect him?

  8. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    It's not about Art. It's about representing yourself and your work truthfully. I'm surprised some people here have a problem with that expectation.

    As for "grinding someone into dust", no such thing was done. We asked for a show of work, to prove that the guy was as skilled as he claimed to be. That shouldn't be such a hard thing to do. If I had been in his position I would have GLEEFULLY proven my detractors wrong.

    And if he comes back with the same story? Yes, I'd expect the same show of proof. There's nothing wrong with that expectation. Nothing at all. I should expect honesty from everyone here and you should expect it from me. Period.

    I think honesty trumps hurt feelings any day of the week.

    -Otis
  9. Darth_ArsnL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 2
    Darn good argument.

    I'm all for honesty

    but discouraging him from haveing anything to do with the forums- not too good

    so perhaps next time, don't kill the guy's artistic spirit just steer him in a different
    direction.
  10. Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2001
    star 4
    It's not the expectation, it's how you did it! You (and I'm including your two buddies here, also) didn't have to call him out like you did. It went on and on and on. Was using some discretion too much to ask?
  11. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    I made 2 posts. One airing my suspicions and one after he failed to post any proof despite claiming he would. And I made the posts myself, without any consultaion with my "buddies". I speak for myself and myself only.

    I never suggested he leave the forum. All I expected was that he represent himself and his work truthfully.

    This is a forum for displaying your work. And it's entirely valid to question work that looks suspiciously like someone else's or not exactly what the thread author claims it is. Criticism happens in this forum. Sometime it's not what you want to hear. But if you're engaged in dishonest behavior, you SHOULD HEAR IT.

    I welcome his return if his techniques are what they say they are. PLEASE . . . come back and prove me wrong.

    -Otis
  12. gatodama LFL Artist

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 3
    I am really blown away at the reaction to this. He lied about his technique, he got caught, he bolted. I don't see what the drama is all about you guys. You are acting like we killed the kid. He is not going to stop making art..it is called playing the drama card.

    This has nothing to to with the validity of digital art vs. traditional art. Nothing to do with the use of reference images. It has to do with pulling of a scam.

    I personally like the effects he used, but I did not like the way he continued to claim he did them from scratch with a wacom and corel painter on a blank canvas.

    Look all of the digital and traditional artist that paint Star Wars use a reference from a promo or screen capture or magazine, but to claim those images as an "original pose and moment" created by you the artist is a flat out lie. Unless you have Ewan Mcgregor come over to your house and pose for you, it will never be your pose, it is an appropriation.

    Look he asked me if I knew anyone he could send his portfolio to. I asked him his technique, if he is painting over images with the filters of Photshop or Corel Painter, as that will be one of the first questions out of any reviewers mouth. He said he painted the imaged form scratch using a wacom and corel painter on a proportionally sized canvas with an reference image in another window. I asked to see a tutorial as I was amazed at the accuracy of his eye. That was almost two months ago....I never heard from him again...I was ready to help as much as I could, but he did not want to come out about his methods. If he was being truthful he should not have had any reson to not follow through with it. You will find that the vast majority of artists are very forthcoming with their methods.

    Nothing that was said in the thread was an attack. And if you will go back and read the first page he was called out almost right off the bat and there is also a very similar post in there, that echos the same sentiments that Tom, Otis and myself posted.
  13. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
    I've been lurking a bit and I'd like to say something. As you all know (or don't) I love this forum, but I don't spend as much time in it as you do. Most of my time is spent over at the Fanfiction forums, where we have just gone through a major upheaval because of little things like this. We're talking petitions, mods resigning, and a lot of people getting really angry and hurt. We came out okay because we're a strong forum, but it still hurt. A lot, especially when friends began leaving the JC for good.

    And it all started over little things like this. Things where both parties were a little in the right and a little in the wrong at the same time. Sure, Party A's attitude wasn't so good but they had a point. Sure, Party B is right, but are they going about getting what they want the right way?

    Basically, what I have to say is this: If you care about this forum, please don't let the arguing get out of hand. Sure, you both have good points. I'll concede that. But are hurt feelings worth it? I don't think so.
  14. Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2001
    star 4
    He's not coming back, not after this.
  15. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    I love this forum, too. I modded it in 02 and quit only because of my distaste for overall mod politics. I never lost my love for this forum.

    That's why I will not stand by and let people misrepresent themselves and their work. The forum DEPENDS on honesty and on honest criticism, even if it may be something the forum member doesn't want to hear.

    Cat, your post is most welcome and right on the money. Not once did I think people were attacking the guy . . . we were giving him an opportunity to completely blow us away with (what he claimed was) his amazing skill.

    And trust me, people . . . if he HAD done that, Tom, Cat and I would have been the first ones to pat him on the back for his amazing talent. We want to support other artists and see them succeed in their chosen field of work.

    -Otis
  16. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
    I've been reading the thread, and he was also being a bit dramatic. A lot of people who say they aren't ever coming back usually do after a few months.

    Give it some time to blow over, make sure he knows he has a few supporters (and if his thread is to be believed, then he does) and he might come back. A nice PM would help, probably.

    As for Otis and the others...well, I won't say they didn't have a point. At this time in the discussion, my opinion really doesn't matter, though. There were a few things said that were uncalled for, but I don't think that they were said on the part of the three gentlemen we're talking about.

    If we really care about this forum, we'll get along. Then why don't we all get back to the actual purpose of this thread, which is the improvement of the thing cared for, instead of it's derailing through personal arguments.

    EDIT: Edited because of bad wording.
  17. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4

    I sure hope you're not accusing me of "derailing the thread through personal arguments". From the moment I entered this thread, it was to discuss how to better the forum through honest representation of work. I never attacked anyone and I never berated anyone. I discussed the issues I raised.

    Man . . .

    What kind of upside down world is it when the people who call someone on dishonest activity are the bad guys? I guess that's what we've come to, when hurting the feelings of a liar is worse than the lie itself.

    -Otis
  18. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
    Argh. No. I wasn not accusing anyone of anything. Please don't see it that way. I'm sorry I worded it that way. What I'm trying to say is that all differences should be put aside. Truthfully? I think you were right. The kid was a fraud. I just don't think it's worth fighting over, for anyone, on both sides of the argument.
  19. DarthZemog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2002
    star 4
    I understand what you guys are saying about honesty. I believe the only real fault was saying it was original artwork. It was and it wasn't. It wasn't original in the sense that he didn't create the image from scratch, it was original in the way that he used whatever paint program to change a photo into a digital painting. I believe that this little "witch hunt" wouldn't have happened if the artist had simply just stated that. I know he has great skill in the digital medium as he's digitally colored some of my works, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. The evidence presented in the thread by another forum member was just too strong to ignore though and I'm disappointed in that. I feel bad at the way it went down though. I think the 3 pro's did go a little hard on him. I mean it's the Fan Art section of a Fan website. I don't think he was planning on profiting from his works, and digital art is becoming an accepted form whether you like it or not.

    As long as the technology is out there and getting better, people are going to "create" this kind of art. Look at vector art. It's pretty simple to use once you've learned the basics, and now anyone can point and click so to speak a digital masterpiece. Digital art and photo manipulation are becoming growing fields of art. I was against it at first, but when I was experimenting in making my own ROTS wallpaper out of misc. images, I found that it does take some skill and patience to do something halfway decent.

    I also don't agree with the argument that was made in that thread about getting away from photo reference. I found that interesting since 90% of the art here is based off of a photo and it's usually not changed at all other than from a photograph to a pencil drawing. I also found it irritating that out of the 3 pro's 2 of them who did Topp's sketch cards in my opinion cheated people. One's work is just very good pencil drawings of photos and scenes with no real change to the image, where another has drawings of Clone Troopers all over his cards, but it's basically the same 3 or 4 heads over and over with different shoulders and color markings. I don't mean to attack anyone, but that just kind of upset me when looking at these card sheets while they preached being honest with people. I think if you're gonna preach honesty, you should also follow this rule too.

    Some advice to the pro's, I think if you're gonna hang around these forums, you might want to participate more in peoples threads maybe with some pointers or tips on how to better their artwork. I found that when I went to conventions that the artists were usually very helpful to give good constructive critiques, but also to show how to improve your skills without ripping a kid to shreds. It was usually the editors that were the a$$holes who took great pride in ripping a kids portfolio apart. True enough, you have to develop some thick skin whenever you show your art, but if you just hang around not participating and just show up to slam someone, don't be surprised if the mob doesn't agree with you! This place is almost like a small family. Just my point of view as Obi-Wan likes to say.

    ~DZ




  20. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    I was never looking for an argument.

    All I wanted to do was make it clar that this kind of behavior would not and SHOULD not be tolerated here in the Fan Art Forum. I was under the misconception that people would agree with that line of thinking.

    I was clearly wrong.

    -Otis
  21. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
    I do agree with you, though. *sigh* I'm just trying to put an end to something that could happen if this all doesn't stop. We all need to remember that we're on the same team here.
  22. Darth_ArsnL Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 2
    Okay and what have we learned today!? lol.
    Honesty- good
    lieing, accusations, arguments, ect. ect. -bad.
    Are we all okay now? Honestly?
    LOL

    Where the in the heck was hansolo29 during all this anyway?
  23. SkyWookiee Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2003
    star 4
    Manipulating photos isn't embarrasing. Claiming you painted them and getting caught is. Don't be afraid to say you manipulated them right when you post them. We won't lose respect for you because of that. But lying about it is abusing our trust in you. This is a certain way to lose our respect for you. Also, being dramatic is childish.
  24. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    DarthZemog, you're welcome to your opinion about my cards.

    But I'm happy knowing that every single one of them is inked and graytoned. That means that every single person that gets one (and no one will get much less see all 400 that I did. Most likely, they will get one in their packs, that's all) will have a semi-finished little piece of my work. I didn't do ANY that were just quick pencil drawings.

    And your comment about Cat's work was just rude. She's a wonderful illustrator.

    "Cheated"? Sorry . . . gotta disagree.

    And none of us were telling the guy using photo refernce was bad. We were trying to get him to prove that the techniques HE CLAIMED to have used, were the actual techniques.

    -Otis
  25. DarthZemog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry Ottis, but when I looked at your card sheets, I was impressed at all the different characters and faces. I just found it kind of disappointing that all the Clones were just stat images of the 3 different heads. I really like your work, but I had gotten two Clone cards that were basically the same except one had a blue mark and the other had a yellow, I would feel cheated. Kind of like how Hasbro just pumps out the same toys over and over just in different packages and new paint jobs. It's still just the same old figure.

    About Cats work, I think she does some very beautiful portrait style drawings. But as wonderfully done as they are, they are just a copy of a picture or scene. I would like to see her use her technique and make an original pose and picture using the photgraph only as ref for the likeness. I'd be more amazed at that. I'm sorry Cat, but if you get ruffled from a nobody like me, I don't know what to say?

    Again, the only fault I really see is that he should have stated that these are just digital manipulations.

    ~DZ
Moderators: Corellian_Outrider