The Official Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

You know I never thought of this but this actually makes a great deal of sense to me. Hell Leia saved Luke from the dark side, maybe Jaina will succeed to redeem Jacen.

 

He would have been but he was cheated out of his destiny. Obi-wan had some problems, but he would have mellowed with age. He was robbed.

 

Urg. Please no. Overdone much?

Now I'm all for Jaina being given the proper respect and page time she deserves, and I really hope she is the one to do Jacen in, but not another redemption!

 

Yeah, I'm hoping Jacen kills Luke in Sacrifice, and then Jaina kills or Force-strips Jacen either in book 9, or in some book down the road, after Jacen's terrorized the galaxy for years. Anything but redemption.

 

No, Yoda's first combat mission in the PT was against Dooku in AOTC. Incidentally, in the same battle the all-powerful 'chosen one' was soundly defeated and Obi-Wan had his 'ultimate jedi' ass handed to him. Yoda saved them both from summary execution and that makes him the ultimate Jedi Hero. And he faded away into obscurity before dying of old age, not in a blaze of glory against a Sith.

 

^^Thank You!!!!!! Thank You Very Much!!!!!!!

 

No, other way. It was heroic, but not the right thing to do. It's a feel-good little moral stand that makes everyone go, "Oh, hero!" But it wasn't the right thing to do. She disobeyed a legal order. The ship fired on GA ships. Jacen was within his rights to press the attack; any pilot letting someone who fired on their fellow pilots get away to fight another day is foolish and irresponsible.

 

I my opinion Qui-Gon was the ultimate Jedi of the old order.

 

And in my opinion, Qui-Gon was a self-righteous hippy with a bad haircut who should have damn well listened to his padawan and left that slave kid right where he found him.

 

Remember, ?wars not make one great?? It?s not your actions that make you a hero, it?s your choices. Maybe Jaina hasn?t blown up a Death Star, but she?s also the only Solo-Skywalker Jedi who didn?t draw upon the dark side or make a dark choice in the final year of the Vong war, during Dark Nest, or during LOTF. Since Hapes in DJ, Jaina hasn?t touched the dark side. Luke and Jacen used the dark side, repeatedly, in TUF and Dark Nest. Jaina didn?t. Luke authorized torture of Jedi and knowingly killed innocent Killiks; Jacen mind-fried an enemy and repeatedly tried to start a war. Even Leia in Betrayal selfishly puts her family's lives over the lives of others, realizes her own dark choice, and vows never to repeat that failure.

Jaina?s the one with a clean moral conscience, and that makes her the best Jedi hero among them right now.

You just proved my point. Those are not epic, mythical stories like Star Wars. They?re contemporary pop culture. The models for Star Wars stories are Greek myths, Shakespearean tragedies, and other epic tales. And in those kinds of tales, the epic heroes always die in battle. Often betrayed by a close friend; Mordred and Arthur, anyone?

Um, no. In case you missed it the last time, George Lucas kills one hero (or more!) in four of the six Star Wars movies, and heroes are gravely wounded in the other two.

TPM: Qui-Gon dies
AOTC: Anakin maimed, Sith start the Clone Wars
ROTS: Padmé dies, Anakin dies (from a certain point of view)
ANH: Obi-Wan dies
ESB: Luke maimed, Han frozen/captured
ROTJ: Yoda dies, Anakin dies (for real)

The NJO took its cue from the movies. So did the Clone Wars novels. If you don?t like dark endings and character deaths, Star Wars isn?t the epic saga for you.

George Lucas did. He killed Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker because their deaths were instrumental to his story. If the death of Luke, Leia, or Han had fit his design for the OT, he would have killed them. In fact, Harrison Ford argued for killing Han in a heroic sacrifice in ROTJ, and George considered the idea, but ultimately rejected it.

The point is, the heroes are only as safe as the epic storyline makes them. And considering tragedy is a fundamental part of Star Wars (PT and OT), that?s not very safe.

Wrong on so many levels.

First, Obi-Wan is the Ultimate Jedi. That?s canon. It?s in the ROTS novelization, which George Lucas personally line-edited. Therefore, it?s Obi-Wan. Period.

Second, the fight against Dooku was not Yoda?s mission. It wasn?t anybody?s mission until Obi-Wan and Anakin happened to see his speeder flying by, at which point it became their mission. Yoda only went to the hangar because he sensed a ?

 

Potter has a more active audience just now because the initial draw is still strong. Star Wars has considerably wider audience simply by being around as long as it has and infiltrating different markets.

If Luke dies, it will return Star Wars to the front page of pop culture everywhere, something it hasn't done since May '05 (and I think this could top even that coverage).

Harry Potter is a phenomenon.

Luke Skywalker is a cultural icon.



If Luke dies, get ready to see Hamill on every talk show in the world. Him and GL and Traviss on Larry King Live...it'll happen.

 

Darth_Lex beat me to it, but I a) mostly agree with you and b) think it very clearly demonstrates why the Jedi have no place in the military or serving the government. Much as I love that Jaina is an ace fighter pilot, a soldier has to carry out orders she may not find appealing. The thin line of whether an order from a superior is illegal becomes even thinner when you're a Jedi and required to act with your conscience.

Of course, if a Jedi can only be a Jedi without answering to a possibly amoral - but still legitimately elected - higher authority, what does separate them from vigilantes?

Ah, the old superhero dilemma.

One of my greatest hopes for this series is that it roundly proves to Luke that answering to a single government is dangerous and doomed the Old Order.

I suppose I want more discussion on this point - where the Jedi belong; what stops them from being vigilantes - is that I genuinely don't have an answer.

I suppose I'd suggest existing as an independent peace keeping force available free of charge to all who request aid from the GFFA on down, but still submitting as citizens of the GFFA to their authority, obeying laws, etc. Kind of like charitable private security on a possibly galactic scale.

Still, as Yoda once said, "To a dark place this line of thought will take us."

 

Sorry, but that simply is not right. Soldiers have to follow their conscience instead of being robots, who obey their orders without question. If they do not listen to their conscience, then in the end of that road are war crimes and they themselves muttering the standard excuse "I was just following orders."

 

Obi-Wan was about a close to the perfect Jedi that anyone without a 900 year life-span could hope to be. The man was the deffinition of Mellow, he had no real glaring faults....nothing time would change at any rate. The only thing that could have made Obi-Wan better was his only apprentice turning out for the better, which would have of course made him even more serene and in the long run. After Anakin went down he did too....so to speak. But around the time of ROTS? You couldnt hope to find a better master.

 

As I said in the original post:

I wasn't intending to suggest that soldiers aren't required to act with their consciences or belittling the extremely difficult task of identifying whether an order from a superior is illegal or not.

I was merely pointing out that the NJO are supposed to follow their consciences above all else, and no, that's not what a soldier signs up to do. They sign up to obey orders they may not find particularly palatable. Otherwise a military wouldn't function.

As I said, where your conscience trumps an extremely unpalatable order and you decide it's illegal is an incredibly tricky decision. For anyone. But there's nowhere near as much at stake for the galaxy if that soldier makes the wrong decision. If he goes "dark side" he's not likely to, say, crush a sun.

 

Again, Yoda defeated Tyranus in AOTC. Or at least made him cut and run. So Yoda has at least one victory.

How many Sith Lords defeated Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel? Three. (Dooku, twice. Vader, once.)

So my tally is Obi-Wan: 2-3. Yoda: 1-1.

Obi-Wan has a losing record, Yoda is at .500

The only thing Obi-Wan was destined to be was the greatest flub-up in the history of the Jedi. Against the greater wisdom of Yoda (not the council; the council agreed he should be trained. Yoda was against training Anakin.) Obi-Wan took on the task of training the potential Chosen One. And he turned a blind eye to dangerous attachments, clandestine murders and general misbehavior in Anakin for 10+ years of one-on-one training. Under his watchful eye and wise tutelage Anakin grew to become the man who would betray his brothers and carry out the extermination of the Jedi. Obi-Wan failed what was possibly the most important mission he was given in life.

And he failed in the second most important mission, too: Kill Vader. He defeated him in combat, sure. Maimed him, no doubt. But he failed to kill him. And thus allowed a decades-long reign of terror and the slaughter and oppression of billions. If Yoda had gone after Vader, he would have known that you can't just cut off an arm or a leg of the beast, you have to cut off the head of the beast. He entrusted this job to Kenobi. Why? Because it fell to Yoda to go after Sidious, the more powerful Sith. Why Yoda and not 'the ultimate jedi' vs. the ulimate Sith? Because "strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you (meaning Obi-Wan) will never be. Die you will. And painfully" Obi-Wan was not is not and will never be as powerful as Yoda. That's from the ROTS novelization. That's canon. Period.

I admit, Yoda failed to kill Sidious. But he fought him to a standstill and walked away with his life. Obi-Wan would have been Obi-Was in about three seconds of hand-to-hand combat with Sidious. Just ask those four Jedi who tried to arrest him.

When Stover describes Obi-Wan as the ultimate Jedi, it is because Obi-Wan displays traits that are indicative of an all-around, general, generic Jedi. He is not the wisest nor most powerful nor the most skilled swordsman. But he excels in enough areas that he could be the poster boy for what it means to be a Jedi. He's Cal Ripken Jr. He shows up to work everyday, he doesn't get into trouble, he's classy and respected, he plays by the book, and he has above-average skills. He even wins a championsip and an MVP now and then. Is he the greatest shortstop ever? No. Others have hit more homeruns, won more championships and gold gloves and finished with higher batting AVG. You heard it first here, Obi-Wan Kenobi is Cal Ripken, Jr.

 

Ok, I've been reading this and have a few things to share.

1.) I don't think Luke is going to die in this book. Jacen is powerful and skilled but he still can't touch Luke, who is at Anakin level power and greater skill due to years more experience. Also, Luke's death would be hyped. Star Wars is a huge part of our pop culture, but right now Harry Potter has more relevance as far as literature goes. The way I see it, it has to be Han or Tenel Ka. Han has essentially become a shadow of his former self, I honestly feel that the only reason he is still in these books is because authors are obligated to use him. Han was a great character, but he is getting old and when you think about a man who is close to 70 doing what Han does, its almost comic. But Han's death would have the desired affect on the SW universe and Jacen. Tenel Ka would also have a huge affect on Jacen, and it seems likely thus making him a tragic figure, in the great SW tradition.

2.) Jaina is no where near the "ultimate Jedi" that Obi-Wan Kenobi was. By ROTS Obi-Wan was themaster of soresu. Whereas Jaina would rather play fighter pilot than be a Jedi, which also brings me to the belief that she would chose Rogue Squadron over the Jedi if given the choice. She also has nowhere near the emotional control that Obi-Wan, or a Jedi for that matter, should have. She still flies off the handle about things and that pretty much precludes her from being the ultimate Jedi. Although to be fair, none of the current crop of Jedi have the emotional control that the movies have lead us to believe that they should have.

 

Is it of the dark side? Just because Jacen is a Sith doesn't mean that every single call he makes is the wrong one. Moreover, Jacen's motivations are not her own. Does she follow a legitimate order and do the smart thing and take out the hostile enemy, or does she go to mush and start complaining about how it's mean to kill people who want to kill you? Part of being a Jedi is following your conscience. But another part of it is doing your duty, and striking down your "brother" Anakin even when it feels icky and you say to Yoda, "Please don't send me."

 

According to the latest Insider, Luke crosses blades with Lumiya again. It would be overkill for Luke to fight Lumiya then Jacen, no? Maybe it's just me.

Or, perhaps Luke takes on Lumiya and Jacen at the same time.

 

If this is the case, it will be ROTS all over again... And the ending is also known in this case too.

 

For me personaly Han has led a terrible life at times, starting out as an orfan being forced to do unethical deeds by Garris sheike and growing into a bitter young man looking after his own interests. He then lost his best friend and his youngest son. If he were to be killed by his other son I think that would be too much for me to take. If Han is ever to be written out it should be as him sacrifcing himself to save others, e.g crashing the falcon into the bridge of a tyrants ship bridge while a shipful of wookies escapes in a refugee ship.

If it is luke (which i prey it isnt) there is no way it should be in a straight fight with Jacen. Even with the burden of faiing his nephew luke could destroy him with one hand behind his back. Obi wan managed to defeat anakin because he had to, despite his personal grief. But more importantly TUF makes it abundently clear that Jacen is rubbish with a lightsaber. He even admits as much himself.

 

Cok does not think it will be Luke as he is too integrated into the Jedi thread. Jaina just is not developed enough as a EU charatcer to hold together the whole Jedi ideal. Bets are on Mara.......

 

Jacen (if he is killed in the series) doesn't necessarily have to die at ONLY the hands of the most powerful Jedi around or a group of Jedi. All it would take is one mistake on Jacen's part, an unexpected move by whoever offs him, or a break provided by luck or the Force.

Star Wars abounds with people defeating those who ought never be able to if power and ability were the only determinants with regard to outcome. In the KOTOR comics Zayne Carrick the worst Padawan of the bunch manages to not only survive the Jedi masters out to get him, but solve the murder mystery. Obi-Wan was clearly outclassed by Maul and yet he walked away from that fight and killed the Sith. Let us not forget that Jacen's own grandfather, canonically declared to be the most powerful Force user in history, is defeated by a Jedi Master of considerably less potential. Luke surviving Death Star II, Han killing the reborn Emperor, the list goes on and on.

Jacen is well versed in many exotic Force techniques, but he could still be caught unawares, particularly if he underestimates his opponent or overestimates himself. He is mortal and thus capable of messing up. He could also be tricked; his blind spots in LOTF are gaping. Lumiya is certainly playing a game of some sort with him and he really isn't too concerned or curious about it so long as it furthers his own ends.

Jacen is a dabbler in various Force techniques and its doubtful that he has studied all of them in great depth. As Palpatine tells Vader in DL:TRODV Obi-Wan won because he went to Mustafar with a clear intent and wasn't distracted. Vader lost because he got distracted, emotion driven, and underestimated his foe. My gut feeling is that the LOTF writers will have Jacen beaten by a Jedi whose skills he has disparaged. The more responsibility Jacen takes on the greater his potential for distraction. And its implied he is going to be even more heavily committed in future books by mastering a Sith battle technique to guide his troops. Could be use the technique on his distant forces while dealing with a direct threat to himself at the same time? Probably not.

Jaina would certainly work, and be a lovely echo of Obi-Wan telling Anakin he loved him as a brother, but given she isn't the only one who could defeat Jacen. I do hope that she doesn't have to kill her twin.

 

"I loved you like a brother!"

"That's because I am your brother, moron!"

 

Ummm, no. Dooku was fighting to escape, and Yoda was fighting to prevent him from escaping. He didn't "make him cut and run" - he was trying to stop him from cutting and running, and he failed. The AOTC duel is a victory for Dooku.

Vader never defeated Obi-Wan. They fought to a standstill and Obi-Wan surrendered. ANH is a draw. Also, as explained above, Dooku defeated Yoda in AOTC.

Therefore, Obi-Wan is 2-2-1 and Yoda is 0-2.

It's also worth noting that if Yoda had actually succeeded in killing Sidious, Vader would have died, too.

I do like the Cal Ripken Jr analogy quite a bit, though.