The "Revelation" to be cut

^can't remember the source, but I remember reading Lucas' explanation somewhere that Yoda and Kenobi 'grab' Anakin's spirit as he dies, showing him how to manifest as a force ghost.

 

READ THE OS DATABANK ENTRY FOR QUI-GON THEN ANAKIN MY FRIEND

 

ManaByte
Posted:
Lucas has been saying since Episode I that the Force Ghosts would be explained, that is not being cut.

It was probably Dagobah.

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How wrong and right you were...

 

"The big surprise is that (Obi-Wan) doesn't die - he's able to join the Force at will and retain his identity, and influence things in a more powerful way than he could just by being a Jedi."

--George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary.

"The issue of consciously joining the Force, which is a theme that runs through these films, and being able to retain your personality and your individuality once you've gone over to the other side, is a part of the story that gets explained in the first three films (Episodes I-III). Here (ESB) it becomes kind of a mystery, because it's never really explained how and why that happens."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"We cut to Yoda, who is meditating, who hears this (the Tusken slaughter) off-screen, and we do hear a voice in there, and that voice is the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. So we very subtly establish that in this rather intense emotional connection, where Yoda is feeling the pain and suffering of Anakin and the Tusken Raiders, he's also making a connection, unwittingly, with Qui-Gon Jinn. Up to this point (in the saga), we haven't established that you can make a connection with the departed in this world, and that will become a factor in Episode III. Lots of issues sort of come out of that - but this is the very beginning of it. Yoda making a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the middle of Anakin's pain."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

The voice is indeed Qui-Gon Jinn's - including the pained cry of "noooooo!" at the end. Somehow, the Jedi hero of Episode I has been able to retain his spirit in the netherworld as we see Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin do in the original trilogy. How did he learn to do this, and how did the others obtain this knowledge? You'll have to wait just a few more months for that information."

--Pablo Hidalgo, Hyperspace.

"We never see the ghost of Qui-Gon; he's not that accomplished. He's able to retain his personality, but he's not able to become a corporeal ghost."

--George Lucas, page 40 of the Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.


In the rough draft?Ben explains that?if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Lorenzo Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.


"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

Aboard the second Death Star at the Battle of Endor, Anakin Skywalker lay dying. He asked his son to remove his life-sustaining helmet, so that he could look upon his long lost son with his own eyes. Having saved his son's life, and reclaimed his soul from the dark side, Anakin died and became one with the Force. As he shed his corporeal form, he found the spectral forms of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda ready for his return. Through compassion and selflessness, Anakin discovered the secret knowledge of the Shaman of the Whills, a technique that allowed him to retain his identity in the netherworld of the Force.

Anakin's spectral form looked upon his two children -- the twins Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa -- during the celebration at Endor.

--The Official Site Databank on Anakin Skywalker.

 

u see

i dont believe u should have to look into the databank or the novels to explain things left out the films

this should have been made apparent from ROTS

 

I agree...


I mean what else are we gonna do? Go online and debate how everything is spelled out perfectly and nothing is left to our imaginations?

 

it's fine to leave some things to the viewer's imaginations, but a vital plot point???

that's just lazy film making - it's the equivalent of not having an explaination

how would you feel if vader being put in the suit was left to our imaginations?

 

Where does the 'pain staking "noooooooo"' come from????

???

 

In the context of the Saga, it's not really a vital point, Qui-Gon's revelation.

The scene works both ways in my opinion; the way it is or having the voice over. Lucas just to the vague, subtle route when explaining this part of Star Wars that, let's be honest, really isn't that important to the core story.

 

would u agree that obi1 telling vader if he struck him down he would become more powerful than he could possibly imagine important?

what about obi1 telling luke to use the force before blowing up the death star and therefore allowing vader to sense luke?

what about obi1 telling luke to go to dagobah to find yoda?

what about anakin becoming a force ghost through an act of compassion and looking like he did when he was 23?

if u think any of these things were important to the story then surely how they were achieved is important!

here's another one - how about anakin going to the dark side because of the promise of plaguisis' power of immortality but then the qui-gon scene revealing this story wasnt true because a sith will never achieve immortality. is this not important to the story???

 

I agree with DarthWolvo.

There is a difference between leaving it to the audiences imaginations (i.e. the original wampa) and leaving the audience confused on a major plot point. Enagaging imagination is good, but it shouldnt be the result of confusion due to a plot point that is tried to be made clear but fails.

As it stands, the whole force ghost explanation is not too satisfactory. Its THERE, and once you stop scratching your head and going "what??" and then look at the saga as a whole and begin speculating, you can arrive at some answers--but only concretely when you go outside of teh films and consult Lucas quotes and teh databank entries. Not good. When Anakin appears as a ghost, you are supposed to immidiately know that it was because of his compassion and self-sacrifice, that his love for Luke ultimately saved him and brought him what Sidious could never--that is supposed to be a touching moment. But that moment doesn't really exist. You have to watch the scene over and over, go back, look at the other films, read the novel, browse the databank and scour for Lucas quotes. By then any emotion the audience realisation has will be totally evaporated. And only hardcore SW nerds will go to those lengths to find the answers. Casual viewers will just be left in the dust.

For the fans, it KINDA works because we are willing to speculate and dig through all of these secondary sources, but from a story perspective it is a little weak.

 

The reason I said what I said is because if you think about, Qui-Gon explaining everything to Yoda is a bit much. True, there is some interesting dialogue that Yoda states that does answer the question as to why Yoda's philosophy changes between the two trilogies. But, if you listen to his dialogue in the Prequels and his dialogue in the Originals, you can pick up on that theme.

But the scene, I feel, is too much. He basically comes out and explains this part of the Force. Throughout the Saga, the Force has always been vague. It's never truly been explained in detail. The only thing that was explained as the midichlhorians and the only reason for that was to give us an understanding on how some people have the Force powers and why others don't. But, the term "balance of the Force" or the prophecy really aren't explained at all throughout the six films. There are hints all over the place but never truly explained in detail.

In Lucas' mind, Yoda's bit of dialogue at the end with Obi-Wan was enough. It leaves a little mystery to A New Hope. See, you have to think from Lucas' perspective here. He has, for the most part, made these Prequels as if the Originals didn't exist. He's making them for a generation that will experience Star Wars as a whole, not in the fragment way we've all seen them. Granted, there are times that he echoes the Original Trilogy too much. But, I still maintain that his thought process was to make this Trilogy as if the Originals never existed.

So, having Qui-Gon explain it in detail gives no mystery or surprise to future audiences who have never seen Star Wars. When Ben disappears, it should be a revelation to all that this is what Yoda was referring to at the end of Episode III. Had it been left it, Ben's dialogue clearly tells the audience exactly what's going to happen next. Leaving it as it is, it's a moment that's even more mysterious to Vader considerating he was looking for a way to cheat death in Episode III. It's the Jedi's trump card over the Sith.

Plus, look at it this way. Say we hear Qui-Gon. Next we hear Ben in Episode IV speak to Luke during the Battle of Yavin. Then, we get to Episode V and we actually see Ben in ghost form, the first thing a person who's never experienced Star Wars is going to ask is where the hell is Qui-Gon? If he and Yoda both learned this from Qui-Gon, why isn't Qui-Gon shown? Qui-Gon should be more powerful than both of them right? It's a fair question and I think it's another reason why Lucas let the scene go.

This is all subjective but this is how I look at the cut. Now, I will admit that had Lucas extended the dialogue at the end with Yoda and Obi-Wan just a bit more, it wouldn't have been so jarring. It's fine as it is but it's a bit jarring.

EDIT: But you do understand the reason Anakin returns is through his compassion. It's done visually. The act itself is the key to the reason why Hayden returns at the end. If you watch them in the numerical order, it makes total sense. The keys are all there. There are specific dialogue moments that will lead us to that final moment when Hayden returns as Anakin. It's all there but it's not blatant like many want it. You do have to bring the brain in order to figure out what's being done. There's nothing wrong with that. it's just that most movies explain everything to us. Lucas just doesn't do that. But, it's not like he doesn't give us clues to come to our own conclusions.

 

u have actually almost agreed with my point there

at the moment we are told qui-gon has learned the path to immortality - then where the hell is he???

he isnt mentioned again.

the original dialogue explained he didnt have time to completely learn the power but yoda & obi1 will - thereby revealing why they come back as ghosts but qui-gon never apperas again

i also thought it would be kinda cool to hear qui-gon in 3, then ben in 4 and think well ben has the same ability as qui-gon - then when we actually see ben as a ghost in 5 u realise he has learned the full ability to retain even his physical self and that is why he vanished upon death

 

Does Qui-Gon matter anymore anyway? It's only Yoda and Obi-Wan. Focusing on those two is the most important thing because they carry the burden into the Original Trilogy. Mentioning Qui-Gon is enough. Now, the focus should be on Obi-Wan and Yoda in fixing this situation.

And again, I like the element of surprise with Obi-Wan disappearing in Episode IV. It still remains a jarring moment.

The power that Qui-Gon mentions in the dialogue is shown in a visual form instead of it being explained, then shown in visual form in the next film. I prefer that way better.

 

however the power that qui-gon explained isn't explained in the final cut of the film

so we are left wondering why obi1 & yoda disappear and reappear as ghosts whilst qui-gon didn't

 

Yoda explained....but vaguely. We understand what he means in Episode III in the next film....

 

i disagree

 

Thanks a lot to Darth Sinister for this information. I didn't have (take) time to wath the bonus of the OT yet. It might explain part of it. And I'm still waiting for ROTS in DVD ...

I still find we shouldn't need to see the bonus of a DVD or read on-line forums etc. to get such an important point. It should be apparent from the movie only.

Anyway, thanks again for the info. I don't find that the explanation is a great stuff in the saga, but OK, it makes sense. Not weak and not brilliant, thus.

 

Oh, I forgot one thing. It is OK to learn immortality. It is OK that Obi-Wan and Yoda are more accomplished than Qui-Gon and can therefore be ghosts. Does it really also explain why they disappear while dying ? If this is linked to the ghosts, then Anakin must surely disappear as well ? How is this body vanishing explained and linked to the rest ?

 

Enshu-Atsukau
Oh, I forgot one thing. It is OK to learn immortality. It is OK that Obi-Wan and Yoda are more accomplished than Qui-Gon and can therefore be ghosts. Does it really also explain why they disappear while dying? If this is linked to the ghosts, then Anakin must surely disappear as well? How is this body vanishing explained and linked to the rest?


i always thought yoda and obi-wan trained for the force ghost ability and qui-gonn and anakin achieved it by intuition. then again, to me there are no plot-holes in SW, and, yes, im serious, lol.

 

I can't believe I'm back here again, not this board, but getting all worked up about GL totally dropping the ball on this issue. An explanation of the force ghosts is something I (and I think all of us) have been waiting for since Vader poked around at OB1's empty cloak, or OB1's 'Use the force Luke' voice. Every time the ghost's come up in the movies, though, the issue becomes more confusing, not less. And here we are, almost 30 years and two trilogies later, and all we have are sme GL quotes provided by d-s. Thanks for the effort d-s, but no thanks. I shouldn't have to get read every interview Gl has ever given to find out the answer to somethingh this important, it should be sufficiently explained in the movies.

And as for the post that it was explained in ROTS, I don't think so. That would be like me asking how a light bulb works and you replying that it was invented by Thomas Edison.

I go back to someething I said repeatedly in posts over the summer: I think GL wanted to explain it in the movies, then wimped out after he took so much heat for the whole midichlorians thing.

 

I guess what is so frustrating is that, according to the novel, this scene could have been realized with only 2-3 minutes of screen time. The movie was already fairly long by Hollywood standards so this would not have hurt the length drastically. Also, the Yoda/Obi-Wan conversation is dependent upon this scene as a reference (as stated by many).

Yoda says that while he was in meditation, he basically had a tete-a-tete with Qui-Gon, who has learned the secrets of immortality. He is now going to train Obi-Wan while they are in exile with Qui-Gon's knowledge as well as teach him to communicate with him.

It has too much of an "oh, by the way" air to be considered an independent explanation of this important new Jedi ability. Some questions the non-fan audience could ask:

How did Qui-Gon learn these secrets, being dead and all, when no other Jedi has?

Why is it that the Jedi, ironically enough, are the ones who truly have the power of immortality since Anakin has fallen to the dark side thinking it was a Sith power throughout the movie?

Does immortality mean spiritual or physical longevity? Anakin was seeking the physical, is that what Qui-Gon is saying?

Does this mean that Qui-Gon was actually and truthfully one of the greatest Jedi ever despite his problems with the Council? (this has even deeper meaning since Palpatine always promises his new pupils that they will become more powerful than any Jedi, even Yoda. Qui-Gon, a Jedi, is the only one who accomplishes this feat. Yoda gratefully becomes his apprentice)

Why is it even necessary to learn the secret of being immortal, since Jedi are known to willingly join with the Force after death?

----All these questions could be answered in a short scene with the dialogue given within the novel and be a decent reference for what Yoda is telling Obi-Wan.

 

GODDAMIT , freaking @QUi GOn had learned how to be a ghost FIRST!
he needs to come back
stop all this BS !
Bring him back
talking about yoda arriving on dagobah the moist fan requested cut

YOUY HAVE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS YET YOU CANT MAKE QUI GON APPEAR AS A GHOST INFRONT OF YODA

WTF ?!

 

Though I agree with your points, obianikdart, I don't believe flaming to this degree will be very helpful for our cause. Let's see if we can find a diplomatic solution to all this.

*dark side* yeah, aggressive negotiations. *ignites saber*

Kidding aside, let's try to remain civil about this. I do like how your response matches your avatar perfectly, though.

 

Darth wolvo do u realize what youve just said?

u just said what if vader being put in the suit was left to our imaginationS!

uhhhh what do you think we did for 30 years b4 Ep3 came out? lol ur argument is invalid.