The "Why Qui-Gon realistically lost to Maul" discussion thread .

Please refrain from bashing this thread .Also, It was Approved by Quixotic Sith .

I feel like discussing why Qui-Gon lost to Maul realistically. I am not talking of why the Qui-Gon character got cut off,simply why he was beat . It's not as simple as you think. Qui-Gon was a Jedi Master and deffinatly matched the skills of Maul . Qui-Gon always has his defense up suddenly got dinged in the chin by Maul. Niether opponents used any force powers, Maul had a double sided saber(that doesn't make that much of a difference if you are trained well in dueling), Qui-Gon was a Master .... .

What are your thoughts ?

 

People have issues with this? I always thought it was fantastically handled....

 

Well if Maul didn't kill Qui-Gon, what would have been the purpose of his character? As is many consider him a throw-away villain. He would just be scary looking make-up if he didn't kill someone important, and he couldn't kill Obi-Wan, so that leaves the Jinnster.

 

My own opinion is very similar to the reason given in the Novel. Basically Qui-Gon was just ever so slightly past his Prime (in terms of age) and when he and Obi-Wan got seperated, it meant that Maul's youth and agility was just too strong for him.

Remember, Maul almost killed Obi-Wan, too. He was an amazing warrior!

 

Strilo and Poppy, you are missing my point .

I am asking as to why he was beaten not why the character was cut off .

 

Maybe because he wasnt adapted to fight with somebody who is using double bladed lightsaber.Jedi dont use that weapon.Single saber was more common weapon in all times.

 

Obi seemed to do fine against a double-blade and ended up cutting it in half . He was a padawan too.

 

Obi-wan if you rember was useing his anger [which is a no no] to keep up with Maul after Jin died. If Qui-gon had used the darkside or his anger that he might of taken Maul. Age has no meaning in Starwars just ask Count Douku,Darth sidious, yoda, and the many other older jedi Knights.

 

Intimidation, no means of escape, all by his lonesome.

 

Yes but I was saying that he was a padawan , not that he was young. Qui-Gon would not use anger to defeat, I know . Obi was very angry and took Maul .

 

Obi really didn't "take" Maul. As a matter of fact, he was pretty much beaten until he saw his window of opportunity to turn the table, setting the tone for the Obi's future.

 

Why do people always use the argument that Qui-Gon was slight past his prime?

Dooku, Yoda, Mace and Palpatine were all past their primes. And all four handled themselves very well.

 

I know,

Look at Dooku, in AOTC, he took Obi and Anakin .

 

From the excellent Novelization of The Phantom Menace:

"Obi-Wan did not like the weariness he saw in the slump of the older mans shoulders, in the bow of his back. He [Qui-Gon] was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen, but he was growing old.

"Qui-Gon Jinn might not be young, but he was still powerful."

He [Qui-Gon] was beginning to weary now from carrying the battle alone. His strokes were not so vigorous as before, his face bathed with sweat and taut with fatigue."

Now, I realise EU is not cannon, but these novelizations have actually been given the seal of approval by George Lucas himself, indeed Lucas would have talked intimately about the story of TPM to writer Terry Brooks.

The way it's written, and how Qui-Gon looks during the duel, I think it's clear that whilst Qui-Gon was a powerful warrior, in the end, age and fatigue were his undoing against a much younger, and far more powerful attacker - Once again, you need to keep in mind that Maul nearly beat Obi-Wan as well - He was an amazing warrior, and if he hadn't been killed, Sidious wouldn't have needed Dooku or Anakin, Maul would have been powerful enough to take most of the Jedi Knights.

 

I never liked the old age explanation for Qui-Gon or for Obi-Wan in ANH. If older guys can't duel and hold their own anymore, then why are Dooku, Palps and Yoda such studs. I'd rather think that Maul's aggressive style was just too much, one slip up and you're done.

 

Good points everyone.

That is true that Qui-Gon was fatigued and weary but so was Maul, maybe you missed the parts when he jumps and spins like a demon . Of course though, Qui-Gon can't keep up AS much as Maul but can well enough . Look at other duels, Sidious against Mace and the Posse. Sidious leaps wipes out two of them in 2seconds, takes out Kit in another 2 seconds and still is well for battle against Mace(I won't get into who actually won that duelbecause that's a big debate in the ROTS forum) . I know that Sith use anger a lot to win but look at Yoda, hs dueling i magnificent . Qui-Gon didn't seem like he was struggling in the duel do you ? He was handling it fine on his own .

Keep the thoughts coming .

 

Its simple really, Qui Gon WAS past his prime AND Dooku, Yoda, and Palpatine are far more powerful with the force that is why they have maintained there agility. Qui Gon simply isn't on their level

 

I think the "old-age" argument doesn't really hold as far as the movies go. Because these guys are ALL using the Force, which has nothing to do with age. Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, half-human Vader.

IMHO, Qui-Gon lost because he simply underestimated Maul and rushed in ahead, without waiting for Obi-Wan. This slight "arrogance" on Qui-Gon's part regarding the superiority of Jedi abilities, sets the tone for the PT - the Jedi order persistently underestimate the Sith threat. Later, Anakin rushes alone against Dooku in AotC. On Geonosis, the Jedi miscalculate and have to be rescued by the clone army. Yoda thinks he can take on Sidious by himself in RotS. All of this leads to their eventual "doom".

 

You also make some good points.

I don't think it matters if they are old because the force is a powerful ally as Yoda said .

Qui-Gon could not wait for Obi because he couldn't stop blocking Maul's attack or let Maul get away. I don't quite think Qui-Gon uneretimated Maul because he had already had a sample of Maul had to give him on Tatooine. I guess he did underestimate him in some ways, on Tatooine, Maul only used one side of his saber but that isn't the main threat either . Qui-Gon had to fight Maul when the beem doors opened, there is no way Maul would also wait until Obi came .

 

I personally like the age argument.

Dooku fights were not long and in AOTC fought Anakin and Obi after they had been fighting for some time, so they were probably a little tired.

Enter Yoda, and his fight with Dooku isn't very long either.

Dooku fights Anakin and Obi Wan in ROTS, but again, its a relatively quick fight and Dooku was rested going into this fight.

As for Mace and Sidious in ROTS, its a rather quick fight as well. The fact he killed 3 other jedi is for another thread IMO, so I won't discuss that part here.

Sidious and Yoda, again, a relatively quick fight.

Now, to Qui Gon, his fight with Maul seems to be longer (as they cut away from it more but also they re-appear in different locations that seem to have taken them far from where the battle began).

Plus, Qui Gon had battled his way towards Maul, and was probably somewhat winded to begin with.

I guess to wrap up my rant, the other older fighters everyone wants to point out had quick battles. Qui Gons seemed longer, and that is why I like the argument he just got tired.

Of course, I am not as adament a Starwars fan as most of you, and have not actually studied the fights like some of you probably have, and I am probably just missing the whole point, but this is just my opinion.

Be gentle in your responses.

 

My question: what was Qui Gon meditating about as he and Maul waited for the
red force shield to open? "Did I leave the iron on?"

He looks all focused and ready. He'd done a great job of holding his own to that
point. And then, blam, he gets poked.

As I've criticized in the past, someone teach these poor Jedi that the pointy
end of the lightsaber works too.

As to the original post, yes, he was realistically beaten by a better duelist.

I think Qui Gon's fixation with the present, the living force, rather than to
meditate on the future, impaired his ability to fight with Maul. Else he could
have concieved of their endgame in a more appropriate manner.

 

Someone said that Qui-Gon was past his prime in TPM. is there any info about how powerful a warrior Qui-Gon was when he was younger from the novel, EU, or whatever?

 

You bring up some true points.

The other duels were shorter , Duel of fates constantly went from scene to scene. So realistically, it was a hell of a long duel. Nonethless, Qui-Gon still held his own while heading to the beam doors.

Speaking of Qui-Gon meditating , I believe he centered his thoughts and regained some strength.

Keep em coming .

 

Everyone makes interesting points, but personally I think the most important aspect was the link to Anakin and Obi's Episode 3 duel.
Maul killing Qui-Gon has a very strong parallel to Vader "killing" Anakin. I mean, look at Obi-Wan's character contrast in these two scenes. In Maul's duel, he can only watch helplessly as his former-master Qui-Gon is defeated. In Vader's duel, he's holding the lightsaber that defeats his former-apprentice Anakin. Trippy, huh?

 

I think the age argument is somewhat valid. Yes, Yoda, Dookum, and Palpatine are all fairly agile in their old age. However, that's missing the point. The argument goes that in their prime, they would've been even faster. And we've seen nothing to contradict that. Or, from another angle, assume Qui-Gon is using the Force to supplement his agility and stave off fatigue. That still gives the advantage to Maul, since, as a younger person, he would fatigue slower, and thus require less Force-usage to maximize his agility. This would, at the very least, leave more of his concentration and Force powers free to use in other ways during the duel.

Ultimately, though, I think that Maul won because he was simply the superior warrior. As I view the duel, he defeated both Obi-wan and Qui-Gon for all intents and purposes. Kenobi only survived because Maul let down his guard and essentially stopped fighting at the last minute. But when he was actually trying, Maul, managed to keep up with both of them simultaneously, and when fighting them individually he was able to best them very quickly (about less than a minute or two in each case). I think we should remember there are only two Sith at a given time. Even though his title was "apprentice" it is quite possible that he was immensely powerful in the Force, and more than a match for most Jedi. This is, after all, what we see in Dooku. So I think that Maul was just a better fighter, and thus was able to beat Qui-Gon.