Vader cry?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Tatooine_Gemini, Nov 26, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. Tatooine_Gemini Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 1

    An unusual topic I admit.. but a strange thought entered my mind a moment ago. I remember seeing Anakin drop tears while holding or grieving for his mother when she died... and I wonder about "crying". I want to pose a question..
    Anakin while he took the name Darth VADER lived completely on the dark side of the force. He crosses completely over in ep3. So this means Lies, deceit, anger, hatred, sadness, cruelty, greed, regret, hatred, fear, and the like are the emotions and energies Vader draws from.
    If this is agreed, then do you believe that while in meditation or in thoughts or dreams, that Vader would cry?

    This opens up a lot of room for commentary..
    Is crying of sadness of the darkside or the goodside.. how do we know.. and if someone cries of grief, regret, anger and the like then this is letting your mind walk a line around the darker side.. Some sort of test I believe..
    to see if one can stay positive, hopeful, fathful, strong, and sure.

    What are YOUR thoughts?
    o_O
  2. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    Vader was "more machine than man" He had some emotions evident in the films like serious anger and a desire to get certain things. These are very Sith like emotions. I don't know if any Sith lord has sadness as an emotion. The man was able to cut his son's hand off, he lost most emotions until the end of Return of the Jedi.

    So I don't think he cried.

    You may be able to get more positive feedback and a more lasting conversation if you post this in the Classic Trilogy Forum.

    Thanks
    Seldon
  3. DS615 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2003
    star 4
    He's the second most powerful man in the entire galaxy. What would he have to cry about?

  4. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Oh, he'll have plenty to cry about. I don't know if he does necessarily, but there would be every reason for it. And of course the Sith feel sadness. Gemini's emotion list is solid. Vader would especially feel sadness, because Anakin would. Anakin's entire downfall comes about because he is too emotional, that's not going to change when he's Vader. Of course he wants it to, he wants to kill off all that's left of Anakin... but that never really happens does it? That's sort of the point. Vader would know that he's responsible for his own downfall and that of the Republic, and for the death of Padme and their children. Does that make him any less an evil villain? No, but it does make him a more compelling one. Sadness, hate, pain, fear, regret, anger... it's all in there.
  5. ShrunkenJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 5
    This is a very interesting idea...

    Now, I've always been partial to humanizing even the 'villains', and certainly Anakin/Vader is an emotional hurricane. :D I admit I'm a bit sceptical, but...

    Taking this idea and running with it, this is what I'm imagining:

    Vader's acual tear ducts aren't there, but under the mask his eyes do get red. He has a very expressive face under the mask, too, often showing pure pain and grief, but of course no one knows that. And his voice regulator keeps much of his emotional state out of public view as well. For meditation he meditates on grief, sorrow, emotional pain. And it gives him power. But unlike the Emperor, who would draw from enjoying the pain he inflicts on others... Vader draws on the pain he causes himself, including in large part the pain he gets from hurting others. In other words, Sidious is a sadist but Vader could be a masochist.

    Does that make sense to anyone else?
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
  7. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Oh absolutely, there's a huge element of masochism there. I think that for all the pain and suffering he causes other people, he causes himself far more. He's punishing himself... like Obi-Wan and Yoda he's had much time to think over the past 20 years, think and throw blame about. He probably realizes by then the true result of his own choices.

    And more than that... go with this simile... he's like an anorexic. One of the main underlying reasons for anorexia is that a person feels out of control of their own life, so they stop eating because that's one thing they feel the can control. Vader is still a slave, a slave to everything but his own feelings. Making himself feel so much emotion internally is something he can control, the Emperor cannot take that away... in fact no one ever has... not Obi-Wan or the Jedi, or even Sidious. Pain and suffering is the most intense emotion he can feel at that point. His emotions have always been dangerous, his entire life, but in very different ways. That make any sense?
  8. Tatooine_Gemini Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 1

    =D=

    wow!

    Thanks you guys.
    I can't believe the comments you gave!
    Awesome.

    I CAN see I'm not the only one who takes an interest in what a character is feeling between the lines.
    Ecspecially Villains.
    ENDLESSly facinating.

    Thanks for what you've all said so far!
  9. JediMindTrick000 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2004
    star 3
    Proof that Vader cried could be found in Luke's comment, "There is still good in you - I can feel it." This is also reiterated in the EU (Dark Empire) where the cloned Emperor faulted Vader for always being "weak" because he always kept a portion of his "good" soul. That goodness would be the tiny voice in his head which would allow him to cry.
  10. brownvader Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2004
    The tiny voice in his head probably has more to do with the dank dagobah herbs, don't you think?
  11. Master_Rebado Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2004
    star 2
    To my way of thinking crying out of sadness would be too much of a 'human' emotive repsonse for a Sith.

    Anger,fear and aggression are the ways of the Sith.

    Any feelings of sadness Vader may have allowed he had buried underneath anger and hatred, unleashing this upon others as a means to forget those feelings.

    During AOTC Anakin blames Obi-Wan for being held back in the Jedi order(blaming others and not seeing his own weakness) this is a pattern for him as he shifts blame all along.

    His talk with Padme on Naboo before they go to Tatooine he is clearly feeling that the Jedi Order is denying him what he wants.

    I'm sure that ROTS will show us what other justifications and rationalisations Anakin will make in defence of his choices and actions.

    Anakin as a Sith had embraced the Dark Side with his good side so deeply hidden that even after the knowledge of his Son's existence,it took until the latter part of ROTJ for his good feelings in him to translate into good deeds.

    During TESB Vaders' motivation in the search and pursuit of Luke is seemingly clear - Luke is the Rebel who destroyed the Death Star.

    Only during the holonet linkup with the Emperor does Vaders'suggestion of turning Luke to the Dark Side indicate a possible alterior motive beginning to appear...

    Vaders' motivations during the lightsaber duel on Bespin are not altruistic even when he offers Luke to 'Rule the Galaxy as Father and Son'

    This is Vaders'attempt at a distorted altruism as the Sith that he is at the time.

    Though I accept that vader was still Anakin with emotional pains inside he was also someone who had made choices for his own personal gain(which perhaps would account for why Luke spoke of Vader as being in conflict in ROTJ.

    IMO it took all of Luke's rejecting all of Vaders' offers for power and even overthrowing of the Emperor as well as the continued theme of Lukes'belief in the possibility of Vaders' redemption before Vader started to truly see what he had to do.

    When the Emperor placed Luke at the brink of death,Vader realised what was truly important to him and he turned back to the light side and redemption.


  12. durty_mynock Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    star 3
    I 've read a good (sci-fi, of course) book about terraforming Mars ( Red Mars, by K.Stanley) and I was very interested by a psychological etude, classifying humans being into 4 kind of comportement.
    - extraverted and emotive people
    - intraverted and emotive people
    - extraverted and non-emotive people
    -intraverted and non-emotive people
    I think classifying Vader could be a very interesant thing, but opinion of fans would be so diferent, according to the way they consider Vader's psychology. That's why I will just speak generally about Siths lords: they have to be ABSOLUTLY intraverted. That's the basic of their attitude. So, Vader CAN'T cry. If he does, it's mean the Light Side is stronger in him......I don't think this is the case...just try to count how many people he choke!
    But he could have cry just before his death, when he turned into the LS.

    May the Dark Side be with you, and have a Nice Day
  13. DarthJohnkenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2004
    star 4
    He's the second most powerful man in the entire galaxy. What would he have to cry about?

    Well he probably doesn't have much time to Pod Race. :D
  14. Tion_Meddon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4

    Oh, Vader must definetely cry. I can picture him crying when Luke escaped Bespin, in that eerie silence.

    DS615, you said how could the second most powerful man in the galaxy have anything to cry about? Oh, I wish I could answer you, but there are no spoilers allowed in this forum!! Just trust me, he has a lot to cry about. And in fact, we DO even see suited Vader cry!

  15. Mustafar_Knights Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2005
    star 3
    Hell yes he cries. ANY "negative emotion" is of the Dark Side. This would include--

    * Hate
    * Anger
    * Fear
    * Aggresiveness
    * Sorrow

    I imagine that anger, fear, and sorrow are alright for Jedi in limited amounts {we have seen Jedi with all three emotions throughout the series}, but any of them taken to extremes are of the Dark Side,
  16. VaporTrail Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    I think he was crying under that mask after the Falcon made the jump to lightspeed at the end of TESB.

    "My lord, are you alright?"
    "I said don't look at me!!" ::force choke::
  17. Palp_Faction Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 3
    In ROTJ when Luke meets Vader on Endor, you can almost see a tear trickle down Vader's cheek after Luke is led away by the stormtroopers and Vader is left to his own thoughts. "It is too late for me, son." Regret and despair - says it all really.
  18. durty_mynock Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    star 3
    Vader doesn't cry. He can't cry. Crying is for weak people. He can be sad, but he can't cry. (I try to repeat it to convinct myself)
  19. WLDB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2004
    star 4
    "Lies, deceit, anger, hatred, sadness, cruelty, greed, regret, hatred, fear,"

    Sounds like a stock broker. Or a politician or even lawyer.


    He must cry if he is like them.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.