What is feminism?

I have two boys (and a 6 month girl) and boys do play much more aggresivly. My 3 year old likes to play with barbies, he plays nice for awhile but then ends up using barbie as a gun. My boys have had both boy and girl toys since birth.

When children are about 3 years old they know they are boys or girls and start to imitate the males and females in their lives. My boys want to do everything daddy does. My 3 year old has to have a tool belt and fix things like daddy. Children in their nature are this way. They want to identify with their gender roles.

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Its both nuture and children being hardwired into their gender roles.

As a kid growing we only had boys to play with so I played with the matchbox cars, SW's I found on my own and I wanted to be Leia (she was the first woman I ever saw that could take care of herself) and I even got one of my boy friends to play barbies I always prefered Barbies and playing house to cars and football (esp. after breaking my arm playing football)

 

I have read back through every post in this thread, so bare with me on my response:

Feminism is about equal access and equal rights. I have no problem with that at all. In fact, I don't even mind reverse gender roles: I would be perfectly happy to be the house-husband and stay home with the kids and clean the house and have my wife be the bread-winner (though I'd miss her all day). But that's due to what I want out of life, not because I want to force my wife into a role. (I'm not married, but this would be an ideal situation for me - just to clarify.)

There's a difference between giving women respect and credit where it's due (i.e. equal pay, equal opportunity, etc.) and women running rampant in anti-male propaganda. For example, I know that there are feminists out there who campaign and rant and rave about changing vocabulary such as history and mankind and humankind and any word that has anything with man in it. These are words that developed over history and even though they have that man or his part in it, they truly symbolize more than just the man's point of view.

By the same token, I have problems with women who are always bashing men just for being men. I, a consumate gentleman, have been oft offended by women who give me dirty looks or refuse to acknowledge me when I do something gentlemanly for them (i.e. open a door for them, allow them to go first, etc.). That's one thing that has truly been lost in our culture - etiquette and manners. Because they show appreciation for both men and women from their respective partners. So, give chivalry a chance and allow a gentleman to do his thing. After all, it was my mom that taught me so!

Just my 2 cents.

 

Those 2 cents are coming from an outlook that is priceless.

I don't understand why equality should necessarily negate the basic manners and civility that should be practiced by both sexes. There is something askew when a man being polite entices a woman to be rude.

 

The concept of true equality is far too alien for anyone to comprehend.

 

EEJ, just to let you know...

I hold open doors for whoever happens to be around, male and female, and I can tell you that oftentimes I don't get a thank you either. From either sex. I don't think it's a female or male thing, necessarily, just a "manners" thing.

(What I've started doing, though, is to cheerfully and loudly say, "You're welcome!" if they don't acknowledge my deed. It's a riot to see their reaction. Try it. You won't be disappointed.)

 

I'm selective with door holding. I hold a door for some people, other times, I let them ram their noses into said door. ::snicker::

 

I only hold the door for people who need it. Like moms with strollers, people with canes. Anyone else can open the freaking door themself.

 

As I see it, feminists agree (as I agree) that males and females are equal.

Many people, feminists included, believe that masculinity and femininity are not equal; masculinity is superior.

Although there is a hint of equality between the sexes, too often women strive to be the same as men.

Women and men are different. The research is out there. Males are built for force and females are built to last. Males are built to establish and gather and females are built to sustain and nurture.

BOTH roles are essential for families and communities to thrive. But most people in the West can't accept that. There is a general mentality that masculine roles are "better." Women have become compelled to supress their feminine instincts to counterbalance the masculinity.

Feminism could learn a lot from the yin/yang polarity.

 

Males are built to establish and gather and females are built to sustain and nurture.

I hope this is not an intrinsic belief of anyone.

The argument that men are the hunter/gatherers, and that women are the nuturerers, tends to lead toward irrational thinking among the sexes. For much of Western history, this line of thinking lead to the complete oppression of women. In the present era, this logic is used by many women to say that men have no place in the raising of children.

What I would like acknowledged is that each person has the capacity to be nurturing and has the ability to provide for themselves. One sex does not have superior skills over the other in these fields.

 

Males are built to establish and gather and females are built to sustain and nurture.

Gender roles are for insects.

 

"The argument that men are the hunter/gatherers, and that women are the nuturerers, tends to lead toward irrational thinking among the sexes. For much of Western history, this line of thinking lead to the complete oppression of women."

What has led to irrational thinking among the sexes, and the complete oppression of women, is the assumption that one has to be "better" than the other. Having different instincts doesn't mean one must be separate and/or valued over the other.

I wonder if you read through and understood my entire post.

"In the present era, this logic is used by many women to say that men have no place in the raising of children."

Exactly. As DarthYama said, "gender roles are for insects." As humans, we can acquire different skills during our lifetime. Many people can't seem to acknowledge that.

 

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TreeCave, so how would you define yourself today? Are you a masculine woman or just one who doesn't fall into the usual "feminine" stereotypes?

*I* think I'm an interesting blend of traits, probably none of which scream "male" or "female" at anyone trained to think as we are in the US. I'm a flirt, but I'm also very, very honest and direct. I negotiate and handle business the way I've seen men do, and I can tell that takes some people aback. I don't like clothes shopping, I think men are pretty neat, I don't think women are goddesses, and I don't want kids. Those things are not considered feminine, but not necessarily masculine, either. I think I defy pigeonholing, and most people can't handle that, but others find it interesting and valuable. It has enabled me to make friends in high places in the film industry from time to time - that's an industry where they so value people who can get jobs done quickly, properly and under budget that they don't let your gender or anything else keep them from hiring you if you're good. This is behind the scenes, of course - it's very different, unfortunately, for actors, but that would be a whole other topic.

Children in their nature are this way. They want to identify with their gender roles.

Maybe I'm just a unique and radically cool individual (doubtful, hehe), but I never did. The women around me, other than my mother, went out of their way to appear dull so as not to scare off the menfolk (this was a rural area). I didn't want to be dull. I wanted to fly a spaceship and be a Jedi Knight. I didn't see my role as having anything to do with my plumbing. I still don't.

there are feminists out there who campaign and rant and rave about changing vocabulary such as history and mankind and humankind and any word that has anything with man in it.

Good point. And changing words alone doesn't solve any problems. Some people can put more venom into the term "African American" than they would put into the n-word. While I do realize that changing MY semantics has an Orwellian effect on my thinking (I once spent a year avoiding any negative words such as no, never, and not, and was much less angry than usual!), forcing others to change their vocabularies when they aren't ready to embrace the new concepts changes nothing below the surface.

As for chivalry, I appreciate anyone holding a door for me. If someone is coming through behind me, I hold it open whether it's a man, woman or child. Some MEN, particularly in the south, take offense at a woman holding a door open. That's just as silly as women interpreting such an action as condescending. It's just simply rude to let a door slam behind you on someone's face.

Bedada3, excellent point. Exactly what I was trying to convey about how we value mascunlinity over femininity, not recognizing the necessity of both in balance, and in their appropriate places. Not the PEOPLE in their appropriate places, but the traits.