What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.

I was watching ROTJ after a drink or two, and got to the Ewok section, and recalled that back in the TPM years of TFN, there were a few who objected to the Ewoks in particular, DSII as well, and ROTJ in general.

Everyone is entitled to artistic difference. I do suspect that the "battle" on the Endor moon would suggest that Lucas was trying to reach a younger audience. No fast shootouts, Imperials run away rather than defend their position, etc.

So I'm seeking logical arguments that explain |why| Ewoks, or Death Star II, or ROTJ, are faulty or ill-conceived products.

Thank you in advance.

 

I know that I can't answer for everyone, but this is why I think that many objected to ROTJ. The Empire Strikes Back was an adult film. It was geared towards adults. I suppose that a lot of people were expecting the same out of ROTJ. Instead, they were treated to fighting teddy bears. Personally, the only reason I have anything against the Ewoks is about how easily they were able to overcome the Empire. I mean, think about it, the greatest force in the galaxy being crushed by small, furry creatures. It just doesn't add up. I know it was supposed to be a way to symbolize how if we have enough determination, we can overcome impossible odds. That's very nice and all, but at least make it a battle. The Ewoks absolutely destroyed the Empire.

I actually haven't heard any complaints about the DSII.

THat's just my opinion.

 

Ugh, not that again. Wildly spouted claim supported by absolutely nothing. Where is that thread from last month that did away with that silly notion...
[edit]ah, here it is[/edit]


And generally Ewoks are a brilliant masterstroke of storytelling and filmmaking compared the tedious side-quest at the beginning that might just as well have taken place in another universe. The only thing Jabba's palace was really good for was to provide the basis for a lot of kickass EU material. As a means to get Han Solo back it's a terrible idea and executed even worse.
It only really gets a free pass because of that damn bikini. I skip the whole thing right after 3PO is taken away - because the droids are actually the only good thing about it. It feels like it's more of a spin-off right within the movie than the teddy bears who actually got spin-offs later.

 

The opening of ROTJ is my favourite part of the saga

And yeah, ewoks didn't destroy the empire etc etc. They merely served as a temporary unknown diversion whilst the rebels did their thing. Had it gone on much longer, the ewoks would have been annihilated. They momentarily had the element of surprise. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

"Logical" is subjective, so I don't really think you can ask for logical arguments on a message board. Everyone is going to have their own opinion about what a logical argument is about this.

 

Point well made. And that is simply my opinion. The Ewoks did not destroy the "entire" Empire, rather, they beat the Stormtroopers on the ground pretty easily. So, while they did not win the war, they won a battle very easily. So, what I was saying is, they destroyed the troopers who were guarding the shield generator and forced a retreat.

 

Pretty sure it was Chewie getting an AT-ST that beat the soldiers at the bunker.

 

I think the main thing that was "wrong" with ROTJ, if we're talking about general negative response, is that it was the film which had the unenviable task of following TESB. How do you follow possibly the greatest moment in cinema history and not fall short to some extent? Most people I know like ROTJ, just not as much as it's predecessor.

If we're talking specifics, there are a few things which seem to come up again and again.

1. A second Death Star. Not that original perhaps.
2. Ewoks. A bit "Disney" for many who loved the dark and more adult TESB.
3. The brother and sister thing. A bridge too far on the whole family theme?
4. Han may have been a little redundant.

As to whether any of that is logical, I guess that's fairly subjective. If you like Ewoks, criticism of them probably does seem illogical.

 

I've heard this argument before, and I don't buy it. Plenty of follow-ups, however inferior, at least managed to preserve the intelligence and spirit of the source material, while striving to bring something new to the table (e.g., Psycho II, Terminator 2: Judgment Day, Babe: Pig in the City). ROTJ is just warmed-over Star Wars.

 

How do you think something in the tone of ROTJ would've been received as Star Wars II?

 

Because ROTJ marks Lucas's retreat back to the style of the original film. The characters have largely reverted back to cardboard cutouts, spectacle eclipses substance, and two of the major setpieces are either lazy replications (Death Star II) or meandering extensions (Cantina sequence balloons into Jabba's 30 minute muppet show).

This isn't a knock against ANH, by the way. That film had sincere performances, a finely-tuned whimsy, and a transporting beauty.


On edit: Apologies. I misread your "how" as "why?" If Star Wars II carried the tone of ROTJ, I think it would have performed as well, if not better, than TESB, but the series wouldn't have lasting value amongst many adult fans. It would be more of a fixture of nostalgia than an ever-resonant myth to which one clings.

 

The Ewoks were getting their cute furry asses handed to them until Chewbacca hijacked an AT-ST. The Ewoks' knowledge of the terrain gave them a slight advantage in a few circumstances (log traps, strategically placed swinging vines, supplies of big heavy rocks), but there is no way an Ewok could beat a stormtrooper one on one.

 

Discussing this topic always makes me sad. The only thing i really like in ROTJ is what truly matters. Its the Luke,Vader & Emperor scenes. I dont know what Lucas was thinking, but its like he was running out of ides, so he just choose to put something random into the movie. Why? Its the final chapter of the most epic tale ever told in movie history. Because of the Endor & Tatooine scenes, Rotj is one of my least favorite SW films.
Thats all im going to say regarding this. People have to stop posting new topics on this subject, its a never ending story.

 

Nothing is wrong with the Ewoks.

They didn't defeat the Empire (in fact the Empire was decimating them).

I think some people just inherently have problems with anything that is light hearted.

These movies simply can't be fully enjoyed by cynical or mean people.

It's a movie series geared towards the optimistic and good natured members of the audience.

 

Usually I'm very cynical, but I could never get rid of that "Star Wars, **** Yeah!" feeling - and the Endor battle just enhances that. Especially that one cut from a tree getting splintered to the space battle. **** Yeah!

Actually, I think my feeling is only "John Williams, **** Yeah!" Battle of Endor I is the best piece ever and Ewok Battle kicks ass, too. The concert suite Forest Battle kicks more ass, though.
Incidentally, most of the Jabba's palace music sucks.

 

1) ESB (running time 2:04) set a trajectory of complex adult emotional terrain, including betrayal (Lando), forgiveness (Leia, Chewy), kinship with evil (Luke), revision of exterior (Leia ?my hands are dirty?, metaphoric of multipartisanship/alliance), revision of interior (Han ?General Reikan, I gotta go, there?s a price on my head), dismemberment (Luke and maybe 3PO), and the fluid nature of space worms (3PO).
2) ROTJ (running time 2:14) dealt only with a handful of complex issues, kinship with evil (Luke), redemption (Vader), and revision of interior (Han; Leia?s attachment to Han was largely conditional upon him being in the ?new religion? of the Rebel Alliance, but Han gets no scene where he demonstrates loyalty without incentive to the principles of the Rebel Alliance, and we cannot know he is ?on board?.)
3) The remainder of emotional terrain from ESB is leveled out to a constant or an assumed solution. Lando gets no scene where suspicion of his motives is considered and then put to rest. Running time could have guided these choices.
4) I wouldn?t dare defend the ?damn bikini? against crusaders of the ?male gaze? (Laura Mulvey), except to point out that it served as a ?code clearance? to a female agency of strangling Jabba with his own chain. Also, if there was a way to contrast beauty and beast (principle and expedience), it does that.
5) From my position of artistic difference (no credentials), it appears to me that the arguments pro/con re Jabba, Ewoks, and DSII are, from the logical perspectives radiating from their individual positions of artistic difference, a net sum of artistic difference. (The vectors point everywhere.)
6) IMO, It appears the argument ?ESB was dark and more adult? is the only argument that is logical and free of artistic difference. I.e., solely logical. (The vectors are largely parallel.)

Thank you all for your perspectives, warnings, and lamentations on this question.

 

On the Jedi commentary, Lucas goes out of his way to say that the ewoks don't really "win" anything, they only cause just enough mayhem to allow the rest of the good guys to do their thing. The problem is mostly in the execution which is SO cheap and unconvincing (which includes the empire's side of the battle too). It's by far the most significant thing in any of the 6 movies that could actually benefit from the advances in technology for the 3D version.

 

I never really had an issue with the Ewoks. It was sort of funny back in 1983 to see the Empire get a butt-kicking by little teddy bears. I always understood the reasoning for the Ewoks being there; to show that all the technology in the world (Empire) can still be overthrown by the unlikeliest of things. The Empire didn't feel the indigenous beings on the moon to be of any threat, which was their big mistake.

The thing about ROTJ as a whole that's always bothered me was the tone of the movie, compared to the first two. I've never been able to fully explain myself on this, but ROTJ felt more "Hollywood" than the first two. A New Hope almost played like a documentary in a way. It was like Tatooine always existed and we went there to film it. Empire expanded on that feel and introduced us to new, mysterious places. ROTJ took place on Tatooine first, a place we were familiar with already, then moved to Endor, a place very familiar in appearance as well. The Death Star was also familiar to us, we just got to see more of it this time around.

There were too many light-hearted moments in ROTJ. The worst being when the Rancor gets killed and the keeper starts bawling his eyes out. That crying is downright silly. The newer dance number in the palace is even more silly. Boba Fett falling into the Sarlacc, then hearing a burp, was goofy. Threepio was turned into a real wimp in this movie. I dunno, the tone was just different all around. It didn't have that same "magic" of the first two.

 

Really, the only point I'm trying to make is that I know of some people who didn't like the Ewoks and small band of Rebels seemingly beating the Empire. Not trying to be cynical or anything, personally, I don't mind the Ewoks. Just, trying to answer the originally posted question, I brought up the point that some people don't like the Ewoks.

 

Every girl I have known has loved the ewoks. Infact, the girl I am currently with has never seen a Star Wars movie and we have now watched the whole original trilogy and after she saw the ewoks she has become obsessed with Star Wars so they are alright in my book.

Now for the sake of the movie itself, they were fine. I liked them a lot as a kid and still do. Lucas wanted to show that primitive creatures could over power the empire. He wanted to have a huge underdog story from my understanding. Anyways it was just a small battle. I think the space battle and Vader overthrowing the Emperor(litterally) and redeeming himself was more impactful.

 

In Battlefront the Ewoks are just window-dressing. They run around and make noise, but they don't really seem to affect anything.

In Battlefront II, not only do the Ewoks make it unreasonably difficult for the Empire to maintain command posts, but they repeatedly knock down the Chosen One - the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most midichlorianated person in recorded Jedi history - with slingshots.

The truth is somewhere in between.

 

Come on, the stormtroopers had blasters. Ewoks had sticks and rocks. The fact that the stormtroopers even had trouble with the Ewoks shows how much they suck. You give the Stormtroopers the same weapons, and the Ewoks stomp them into the ground.

Ewoks >> Stormtroopers

END

OF

DISCUSSION

 

You forgot how ROTJ should've been two movies at least. The first act didn't tie together with the second act the way ESB tied "The Rebels are thrown out of their base. Han and Leia are captured. Luke gives up his Jedi training to save them, learns Vader's his father, and almost gets them all killed."

 

I know this isn't the answer for the topic's question, but I think the Battle of Endor does a great job of showing just how extensive the conflict was. It even reached the most primitive of cultures.

It was actually quite fascinating to see the most technologically advanced entity in combat against primitive beings.

 

Fascinating angle of attack, DarthIktomi.

The climax of ANH ("You're all clear kid!") is foreshadowed in the crawl and by an early scene of Imperial brass debating the DS's pros and cons. The setting for the climax is necessarily foreshadowed as being at the rebels' 'hidden fortress'.

The climax of ESB ("I am your father") is foreshadowed early on only by the opening crawl where 'Vader is obsessed with finding young Skywalker'. You don't get a Vader scene till 20 minutes in, where he confirms the crawl's assertion, "I'm sure Skywalker is with them." The setting for the climax in Bespin is not necessarily foreshadowed in the beginning; it is a discovery.

The climax of ROTJ (Vader's turn as evidenced by his human skull being illuminated) is foreshadowed..... Well, not in the crawl. And not precisely in the scene where Vader says the Emperor is coming to town. You must wait 40 minutes, and then the Emperor says "In time he will seek you out. And you must bring him before me." Then Yoda, "You must confront Vader. ... Your father he is." The setting for the climax on DSII is not necessarily foreshadowed in the beginning; it is a discovery.

The pertinent thematic thread I see stitching the first to last half is that ESB Luke should have completed his training and not given into attachment to his friends, and ROTJ first-half Luke was still doing the same thing, running off to save his friends without first having completed his training (and you can tell some time at least passed between ESB and ROTJ). And then ROTJ second-half Luke is revealed to have passed his 'technical proficiency exam' but has one Kobayoshi Maru / Gom Jabbar yet to take. What is more, neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan saw salvageable, humane material in Anakin, so Luke's choice to try to save Anakin is a discovery. But nowhere prior to this is this telescoped or foreshadowed.

I can't defend ROTJ against your specific argument.