Discussion in 'Mid West Regional Discussion' started by ED-VADER, Apr 16, 2007.
Please explain the how & why of your answer.
I chose other, but it's a 2 fold answer. First off I think a broken heart made her loose the will to live. This wasn't a irreconcilable differences split. This was a the man whom I love more than anything has become an evil bastard who slices younglings into with no remorse and no reason other than they are Jedi (something he himself is/was.) A second aspect or what killed her could have been child birth, but not regular complications. I think giving birth to twin children who have such a high potential in the Force would cause serious problems for the mother. As quickly as Padme passed after birth, the twins will could have been what was keeping her alive.
My problem with that scene is that mothers generally DON'T feel that they have nothing to live for just after giving birth to a pair of healthy twins. I mean, that's pretty shitty of her . . . effing quitter.
Therefore, I think it's the poor writing that killed her.
Im going with other: main reason loose poorly concieved plot point. While I'm griping let me point out the lose of humanity in the child birth scene. Why throw wierd c.g. droids in this scene that should be human based at it's core? I won't go into the order of the twins being born or Leia's memories of her mother. Sorry hadn't vented on the boards in awhile.
I voted other. Mainly of a broken heart. I say that, because when I think of anything happening to my wife and baby to be, I would probably freakin die too. Just thinking of it makes me sick to my stomach.
I'm going to go against the grain here and go with the Emperor. Palpatine had been close to Padme since before she was Queen so could probably always get a good lock on her through the force even from far away. Remember that he knew Luke was going to come to Vader on Endor. He sensed Vader was in trouble as far away as Mustafar. Palpy always knew what was up between Anakin and Padme, from the beginning although Anakin had told him nothing. If he could control midichlorians (as some have suggested how Anakin was created, possibly also from a great distance), and midichlorians, i.e., "the force" are in all living things, as Yoda explains later to Luke, then it's not so hard to believe he could control Padme's lifeforce, even from far away. "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design." ring a bell? How did he even know Padme had died when he told Vader? I agree it's bad writing but the left-over hints seem to point to Lucas wanting us to believe it was Palpatine. He knew how to keep someone from dying, as he did Anakin on Mustafar, so he probably knew how to keep someone from living, which would be done by taking away someone's will to live, if that's what you want to call it. It's not that far off from planting suggestions of "These aren't the droids you're looking for." into the minds of the weak. Vader definitely left Padme weak and I believe Palpy finished the job. I don't believe Anakin was capable, no matter how full of the dark side he was, to fully kill Padme, and I don't believe Padme was a firm believer in "giving up" no matter how much of a whimp she was made out to be in Episode III. Padme already knew he was capable of killing kids in Episode II, so that wasn't entirely new and a broken heart doesn't stop a mother from having love for her children and carrying on. Of course, there are many cases that women have died due to complications of childbirth especially when the mother is not so healthy, so that's always a possibility, but not very dramatic toward an epic story. As far as the diagnosis, the dumb robots were not used to her condition due to the sterile, modern environment of peaceful Alderaan, where women are always healthy and have, I'm guessing, a very low stress and healthy pregnancy. The droids just didn't know any better - it was beyond their programming to be able to explain it any other way than "losing the will to live." We know the saying "May the Force Be With You", but what happens when the force is totally taken away from you? I think that's what happened to Padme. And, you could almost say, it's what may have helped kill Vader, from a certain point of view. Vader did say that nothing could stop him from dying even if Luke didn't take off the mask at the end of Jedi, kind of like part of the reason he was dying is that he had lost the will to live as well. Only Palpy really knows.
I think I agree with sithmonger, Palpy was responsible for evrything else, why not this. And I agree that the robots were just retarted and didn't know what was wrong with her because they don't have the force, remember "it exists in all LIVING things". So thinking along these lines for me helps this scene that nearly runied the movie for me because I thought it was so lame. Now I will have peace.. pv
I to shall agree with Sithmonger because the last thing Palpy wants is an apprentice who may or may not be in the doghouse because he forgot to pick up diapers,milk etc.
I gotta go with Palpy also.
In Episode 6, Obiwan explains to Luke - "The Emperor knew as I did, if Aniken were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is why your sister remains safely anonimous"
Palpy wanted to kill Padme before the children were born. In doing so, he would destroy Aniken's will to live as he did before and lock him into the state of perpetual anger, hatred, grief, strife, revenge and all the trapings of the Dark Side. Palpy also wanted to eliminate the chance of anymore Jedi like Aniken from coming after him down the road. Also, if Padme would have lived and Aniken knew he had kids, Palpy may have lost his hold on Vader right away - instead of 20 some years later.
Uh, are any of you married? Trust me, if something horrible was happening or happened to your soul mate or they turned on you, dying of a broken heart could easily occur. The only way Palps is involved is his manipulation of Anakin, and that's as far as it goes. The rest is pure emotional distress on Padme's part.
I'll go with the broken heart theory before any Palpy theory any day.
I would agree with this theory if it weren't for the birth of the twins. Being a married father or 3 kids I can say the only thing on the planet I love as much as my wife is my kids. Padme giving birth to the babies and even taking the time to name them shows that she could have lasted longer than she did. It makes more sense that she had something physically wrong with her or that palpy simply sucked the force from her. And I think his smile standing behind vader just before he said NOOOOO! shows that vader was reacting exactly the way palpy needed him to, he needed padme dead to ge that response. pv
I can't go with the Palpy idea either. I think you guys are giving him a little too much power. He knew Padme passed cause he felt her leave the force, but I don't think he was the underlying cause. If he had the abilty to do that why not do that to other persons he needed out of the way. For instance Chancellor Velorium (SP), instead of ending his political career, why not his life. Why couldn't he reach out through the years and crush Mon Mothma, Admiral Akbar, or any of the other everyday people that caused his reign any problems. With the information we are given, or not given in this case, Padme died from a broken heart. She held onto life long enough to bring the twins into being, then passed. If he had the power to kill her, why not the twins also, problem solved. Maybe if we can get a hold of the radio dramas, they will go more in depth and we'll have sOoooooo much more info to go on.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it, at least until I change my mind.
Ok. I'm bored right now so I'll expound on my theory a little more. Maybe I'll change your mind...or talk myself out of believing that Padme's "broken heart" was just an ignorant diagnosis of a dark-side inflicted demise.
Keeping someone from living who was weak and had already been taken to the brink of death is not quite the same as outright being able to kill someone. And Palpatine had been around Padme long enough early on to become in tune with her presence in the force, even if she didn't ooze force (wait, that's another debate). And if killing was all it was about then why didn't Vader reach out and force choke every leader of the Alliance and just get the Rebellion over with? Palpatine was a strategist and I dare say he got major thrills from it.
Of course, I'm not sure Lucas is capable of creating such an underlying plot point. But why did Palpatine have to be from Naboo? And why was Anakin born right next door? I agree and do think there is a lot we don't know about or would make a damn good EU book about regarding everything leading up to Episode I.
I think Padme was definitely emotionally crushed, physically damaged, and weak after just have given childbirth to (surprise!) twins. This definitely played a major part of "why" she died. But not WHO and WHAT made certain it happened.
Padme was portrayed as a strong, fighting woman who did not give up when "her people were dying" in Episode I. And remember what Kenobi said to Anakin in Episode II when Padme fell from the gunship and he wanted them to turn around and get her. Obiwan wanted him think about what she would do in the same situation. The established fact of her character that she would keep fighting in the battle and leave Anakin behind, is proof that she would not stop just because Anakin had "jumped ship." To quote another franchise, if I dare - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," was Padme's way of thinking. I believe that stayed consistent in Episode III. Until Mustafar, she thought Anakin would be on the side of overturning Palpatine, instead of him joining the Empire and then giving thoughts of ruling the galaxy with her. Padme was crushed that this man she had loved had now become her enemy but I believe she would have fought on against him if she had been given a chance - yet another reason to get rid of her.
Think about when the shuttle carrying Palpy and crispy Anakin got back to Coruscant, Palpy did take a little bathroom break before Vader was finished. Perhaps to focus his own attention on reaching out through the force to do in Padme. On Mustafar, he had learned of Padme's condition when he mind-melded (sorry, wrong franchise again) with Anakin to keep him alive, by picking up his thoughts. And remember that freshly-sealed Vader stated to Palpy that he couldn't have killed her, he felt her, she was still alive. Anakin never felt the loss of Padme through the force. In fact, he asked where she was and if she was safe. If anyone could have sensed that she was gone, he would have. Of course, he was a little distracted, but Palpy probably blocked that sensitivity as well.
Yeah, I'm sure Lucas had none of this in mind, but I'd like to think so. Wouldn't you?
So, to all the doubters who think Palpy didn't, couldn't have killed Padme, I'll just put it to you simply like this:
"You don't know the POWER of the dark side." SCHWING!
Oh, and the results are neck and neck -- we need a tie-breaker!
OK hear this.I really don't think Palpy had intentions of ruling the galaxy for 18-20 yrs.When Yoda enters his office in SITH,Palpy clearly states that young Skywalker will become more powerful than either of them.Now with that in mind I'm sure Palpy has a 4 yr Sith college with maybe 2 yrs on the job training before he finally gets overthrown by his apprentice.Its cool with Palpy just so long as the Sith rule. But by the end of SITH Palpy is very dissapointed in his new apprentice. Why is he dissapointed?Because his plans for his new app. have been cut in half....almost...again. Wait a second................................................................................................................Anakin went dark to save Padme from dying.Palpy knew that and said "together we can save her".Guess what he lied.I think alot of people look at Palpy and Vader as buddies and I'm sure when Anakin pledged himself he thought the same thing.But this Sith thing is different.Its built on anger and hate.Palpy knew that losing Padme would push him further into the darkness.I'm not saying Palpy did it but it was gonna be done regardless.
As far as crushing the rebellion the Empire didn't consider the rebellion a threat until after Yavin.And once Yavin happens thats when the Skywalker name pops up again and both of the Sith realize there is potential for the legacy to carry on.Although once Vader learns of Luke it brings back all those lovey dovey emotions and he's a good guy again killing high ranking admirals left and right before finally fullfilling the prophecy of the teddy bear revolution.
Ok, Sithmonger, you have a very valid point, but I can easily dismiss your theory. For your theory to have worked, Lucas would have had to carry a consistent plot point. And if he had intented this to be the case, something would have been there to let us know that. SOmething tangible.
I could almost go with the idea that in her weakened state Palpy was able to Influenceher death, but not be the underlying cause. And her broken heart here is not just from Ani changing sides. The man she loved, the man she has wasted her life, the man she has secretly married, unable to tell anyone about her joy. That she has sacrificed so much for, has turned to the darkside, slaughtered younglings, and turned his back on everything they together held dear. And no matter how much love a parent may have for a child, that love can't keep them alive, otherwise, no woman would die in childbirth. Yes, I've heard of people hanging on until a child or loved one shows up to the hospital, but that is for a short amount of time, like the time it took Padme to bring the twins into the universe.
I'll agree she was weakened by the choke, but how badly? Unless her windpipe was crushed, she should have recovered with time. The childbirth, especially of twins, was very taxing on her. But she should have been able to recover in time. That is she should have be able to recover, if she had the will to live. THe will to live that was removed by her broken heart. Palpy had nothing to do with this, many lightyears away. Then it's asked that if Palpy had nothing to do with Padme's death, how did he know as a matter of fact she was dead? Watching the movie, no timeline is given between the scenes. Just because Padme died on the birthing table and then Vader awakens doesn't mean they happened close in a time. I would say it probably had to take days of surgery to completely heal Ani enough so that he could be bonded to the armored body, the surgery to take place, formating of the systems, recalibrations, and then recovery time. With as large a procession that was given on Naboo for her, many days of planning were probably needed. News of the former Queen, former Senator, probably reached most everyone. Including the new Emporer, also from Naboo.
Unfortunately, Lucas isn't very good about carrying out all his own plot points consistantly between all six movies, especially the two trilogies, and a lot between each of the original trilogy films. So I have no defense against that.
What is consistent, is that by Jedi we learn that Palaptine claims to have had a lot of control over events that had transpired. And in the prequels this is driven home. Sure, there are things he could not control and did not forsee (always in motion is the future), such as Padme getting pregant with twins, Anakin being chopped up and defeated, and the destruction of the Death Star(s), and, obviously, his own demise, but it's pretty clear that he was really good at setting things in motion to cause things to happen for the good of his rule and power. And right now we don't know what all he was capable of through the dark side.
I will comment on the time frame - I do believe it was Lucas's intentions to show that the birth of the twins and Vader's birth happened at the same time, not just edited to happen at the same instance during the film. And I believe Vader was slapped together pretty quickly - notice that Anakin's burns had not began to fester and begin healing which means the time between Mustafar and Vader's rise was relatively short. But I do have a big problem with the fact that Vader's suit seems to have just been laying around waiting for him if this was the case. Or perhaps Vader's suit is what all tri-amputee third-degree burn victims wore around Coruscant in the day and black had just come back into fashion along with floor-length capes.
I guess my theory only has to work if you can take the hints and think Palpy could have done it and don't buy into that broken heart drivel. It may not be what Lucas intented but I don't think he originally intended Luke and Leia to be brother and sister either. It just ends up being whatever makes the better story when it's done. So for anyone who likes to believe the broken heart angle, then all the more romantic as well as tragic a story this does make. Padme was destroyed because of her broken love for Anakin, and Vader was redeemed because of the love of their son. It makes sense and is very sweet. But "Romance of the Sith" this ain't, so a more sadistic, murderous plotline is more in order for "Revenge" I think.
At least we got a tie breaker and a Jar Jar accuser. Hmmmm, that's right - if Jar Jar had never helped form the Grand Army of the Republic, Padme would have probably lived a long life. It all makes sense - it was the ultimate revenge of the Gungans! Oh, wait, Palpy influenced Jar Jar to do that too. Yep, it's still Palpy.
Honestly its a suicide.Padme came walking into Watoos shop lookin all kinds of hot. 10 minutes later shes at Anis pad.11 minutes later shes in his bedroom.Ep.2Anakins on the fast track to Hell when he goes to Naboo with a still very hot Padme with no Jedi "parents" at the house.By the end of the movie their marriage to the darkside is set in stone.Ep. 3 are just the results of 1 and 2.