Who was Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas???????

whew....that's quite the theory, QuiGon.

I think Dooku is an anomaly - a Jedi Master who turned to the Dark Side. If you think about it, the most dangerous time for a Jedi is when he/she a Padawan just about to become a Jedi Knight: like Obi-Wan in TPM, Anakin in AOTC, and Luke in ROTJ.

This is a time when one's powers are highly developed, and one's teacher probably doesn't have that much more to give, besides experience, which inherently can't be taught.

Here we have Dooku, a guy who's been through lots and lots, and has great control over the Force - theoretically, he should be safe from temptation to the DS.

I mean, we could see Obi-Wan getting angry in TPM after Qui-Gon's death, and it wasn't until he was calm that he finally prevailed.

Now, can you see Obi-Wan EVER becoming tempted to the DS again? I can't.

Anyway, I'm digressing too much.

Generally, I'd bet that Jedi who turn to the DS do so early in their careers, when they are young, cocky, and stubborn (and inexperienced).

And in the same vein, Sith are trained from birth to be bad Jedi. One does not simply "join" the Sith - which is one reason I believe Dooku may be playing both ends against the middle and acting as a double agent. It's a totally different philosophy.

I don't really buy this "host body" business, although it IS possible in the GFFA.

It's a big galaxy though, and if there ARE only 2 Sith at a time, it's not inconceivable that the Jedi can't find them or assume they have disappeared.

Can someone confirm that notion of mine, that in an early Spy Report from the force.net that Sifo-Dyas was called SIDO-DYAS?

Or am I making that up?

 

Good i found someone else who said Qui Gonn. And there is a reson it could be him and this is something i have been thinking about for the longest time. At the died Sifo-Dyas died was about the same time Qui-Gonn died so this lead me to beleave just maybe it could be him.

 

There are about thirty reasons why it absolutely cannot be Qui-Gon.

Obi-Wan knew Sifo-Dyas, by the name Sifo-Dyas! Sifo-Dyas was said to be a leading member of the Jedi council, Qui-Gon was not a member of the Jedi council.

The fact that the name was not unfamiliar to Obi-Wan is the key! If it actually turned out to be a psuedonym for any single one of the characters that have already been introduced in episodes 1 and 2 it would be a HUGE cheat on Lucas' part because it would only be a suprise to the audience not any of the characters in the movie. Which would be incredibly stupid.

The fact that they died at similar times is not really much evidence at all.

 

Obi-Wan knew Sifo-Dyas, by the name Sifo-Dyas!

Well... kinda. We can assume he knew OF him, but he may not have known him personally.

Sifo-Dyas was said to be a leading member of the Jedi council, Qui-Gon was not a member of the Jedi council.

And Sifo-Dyas may not have been either. The only person who actually says that is someone we already know was lied to.
Whever placed the order SAID they were on the council. Thats all we know.

The fact that the name was not unfamiliar to Obi-Wan is the key! If it actually turned out to be a psuedonym for any single one of the characters that have already been introduced in episodes 1 and 2 it would be a HUGE cheat on Lucas' part because it would only be a suprise to the audience not any of the characters in the movie.

But if its Dooku, we've already seen the "revelation" scene in the cell with Obi-Wan. We just didnt know it.
Remember, E3 is the final piece that connects a 12-13 hour story. A new surprise isnt really necessary. We just need an explanation so we can connect the dots and it all makes sense.

Which would be incredibly stupid.

I disagree. Its not important that the characters are shocked and amazed in E3. Its important that the audience is.

Imagine its a new character, who "returns" in E3. Whats the big surprise then?
"Wow. You're not dead."
That surprise is only for the characters.
What would the surprise be for the audience? We couldnt really be surprised, having never seen this person before. Its just some new guy. Why would that matter?

The fact that they died at similar times is not really much evidence at all.

I think it will make sense when we hear the explanation, but its not much to go on until then.

 

[color=663300]I think he's Darth Maul. The Jedi just didn't recognize him because of the tatoos and whatnot. [/color]

 

yes yes, to arrowhead you listen.

Merlin, what about Jedi seemingly being able to sense a certain Force "presence" for each individual Force-user?

I.e., Vader senses Ben on the DS.

And Yoda knows Dooku well enough to realize he is using the Dark Side.

So wouldn't a Jedi be able to recognize Maul's "signature" in the Force?

I guess my own answer is: only if they had met before.

But I can't see ANOTHER Jedi turning - we already have Dooku AND Anakin.

People are saying Mace is actually a Dark Jedi as well.

Why not make 1/2 of all Jedi Dark Jedi?

 

I really dont think Mace is a bad guy. His relationship with Yoda has been very important, which is leading us up to a very emotional death scene for Mace. I dont think they would change Mace from a good strong character to a traitor. There has been no evidence of betrayal from him and Sam Jackson has said, (something like) "I'm the most important good guy to die in the next movie."
I hadnt really thought of it that way before, but thats true. Well... not counting Padme. Her death will be different though.
Anyway, I think Mace is good, and he'll stay good.

I heard all kinds of speculation and fan hopes a while back about a number of dark Jedi in E3, but when I listen to the commentaries & interviews & stuff, GL refers to the Sith & how they have the rule of one master & one apprentice. I think he'll stick to that.

Consider what this movie is really about; Anakin becoming Vader. There will be other subplots, yes. But they wont be that big. We already know the basics of the story. That stuff alone is enough to fill the movie. To do some major character switch at the last minute for someone who is about to die anyway, seems very unecessary. As does some big revelation about a group of dark Jedi, or stories about dead Jedi masters .

I guess it could happen, but I dont think so.


As for the Maul = Sifo-Dyas thing; Good point about the force signature GARTH. I dont think the tattoos would be enough to fool all everyone.
Plus, Maul has been with Sidious since he was a child. Whether you get it from the EU stuff or GL himself; thats just the way it is.
Maul can not be Sifo-Dyas.

Did he kill Sifo-Dyas and use his name to place the order?
Maybe, but.... how boring is that?

 

I still say my host-body theory answers more questions than it creates.

It is a cheat if all of the characters (specifically the main characters know). Think about it. This doesn't mean it has to be something the audience knows but the characters don't (although that is the path Lucas has choosen by making the prequels in the first place).

Why dispute his death? Obi-Wan thought he was dead, the order was placed before he died, nothing at all contradicts that he's been dead for 10 years. Why would he fake his own death? If he wants to turn evil why not simply disappear, or take the even easier route and just leave the order altogehter like Dooku? And there's no need to kill the person to use their name and nothing to benefitted by using the name of someone already dead.

And if someone else simply used his name (Qui-Gon, Dooku). Why use the name of someone not on the council and then lie and say that person was on the council? Why mention the council at all if he were not on it. Dooku could have just walked right up to the Kaminoans and said "Hey, my name's Yoda and I want some clones." They're completely clueless, remember?

If Sifo-Dyas did not make the order himself and/or is a well known psuedonym for an existing character why mention the name at all? He's definitely an important piece of the puzzle, but I'm sure he's his own character. I say he was being controlled by Sidious one way or another. After all, Sidious is The Phantom Menace, not Sifo Dyas.

Remember that a jedi also erased Kamino from the archives. It only makes sense that it was Sifo-Dyas. Either with his last bit of sanity in hopes that it would never be found, or (more likely) while still being controlled so it would not be discovered before it was meant to.

As for Dooku; I think Sidious is just about ready to stab him in the back and Dooku's an idiot for not seeing it. Here he has one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy who also happens to be a threat to the safety/stability of the republic/empire. It would be so damn easy for Palpatine to say "Oh my! This whole force business is so dangerous, so volatile. We need to legislate some control, some order." My money says Anakin will be the biggest supporter of this decision.

 

stupid double post!

 

I still say my host-body theory answers more questions than it creates.

What about how they would explain it? What do you think the scene could be like? They couldnt just tell us about it. They'd have to show it, and I just dont see that happening.
Because if Jedi or Sith can just start jumpin bodies, then I have more than a few questions. Just imagine how that would change the other movies. Why havent we even seen that yet? Why does the emperor allow himself to decay if he could just "possess" somebody?
(You dont have to answer those. They're just examples. )

It is a cheat if all of the characters (specifically the main characters know).

"A cheat"? I dont know what you mean. If you dont like the idea, I understand, but... who is being "cheated"? Its just a way of telling the story.
Remember in E4 & E5, when everybody but us knew Vader really was Lukes father? Ben, Yoda, Owen, Beru, The Emperor, everybody knew. Of course Luke didnt know, but he found out in (what was then) the second film.
Kinda like Obi-Wan. He knows just like Luke knew, but until he has that big talk with Yoda, WE wont know.
Its not a cheat. Its the same thing we've already seen. Why is it so hard to believe?

Think about it.

I obviously think far too much about this.

This doesn't mean it has to be something the audience knows but the characters don't (although that is the path Lucas has choosen by making the prequels in the first place).

Huh? Sorry. You kinda lost me there.

Why dispute his death? Obi-Wan thought he was dead, the order was placed before he died, nothing at all contradicts that he's been dead for 10 years.

You just pointed out the contradiction. The order was placed AFTER he was supposed to be dead, based on what Obi-Wan thought. Except that Obi-Wan only THOUGHT he died. Thats what he was told. Didnt you notice the look Yoda & Mace give each other when Obi-Wan asks them about Sifo-Dyas? "I thought he was killed before that." They dont even answer him. Theres your contradiction.

Why would he fake his own death? If he wants to turn evil why not simply disappear, or take the even easier route and just leave the order altogehter like Dooku?
(...and maybe even change his name.... ?)

Interesting example. I think when Dooku left, the Jedi told anybody who asked, that he was dead. "We suck, he quit." Doesnt sound very good. Like when Anakin leaves & they say he "died". (I know theres a lot more to that one, but its still basically the same thing.) And Owen says Obi-Wan "died around the same time as" Lukes father, but "Ben" is a crazy old wizard. He knows they are the same person, but he refers to the Jedi as dead.

And there's no need to kill the person to use their name and nothing to benefitted by using the name of someone already dead.

I couldnt agree more.

And if someone else simply used his name (Qui-Gon, Dooku). Why use the name of someone not on the council and then lie and say that person was on the council? Why mention the council at all if he were not on it. Dooku could have just walked right up to the Kaminoans and said "Hey, my name's Yoda and I want some clones." They're completely clueless, remember?

Well, yes, that could work. But by using the name of the man who now leads the seperatists to place an order for the Jedi council, those organizations could now appear to be connected.
For Palpatine, that is very very good. Those are all the people he wants to eliminate. And they are all apparently doing things behind his back.
Poor Palpy. Nobody likes him.

If Sifo-Dyas did not make the order himself and/or is a well known psuedonym for an existing character why mention the name at all?

"Why is a question always deeper than its answer." - Vergere,"Traitor"(MW Stover)

What do you mean "why"? *shrug* Its just part of the story.
I think GL wanted some kind of mystery between E2 & E3 and although it wasnt very big, its still a "plot twist", in a way.

Whoever did p

 

ok guys, a few questions to answer......

FROM THE SCRIPT ONLY:

1-How much do we think Obi-Wan knew about Dooku, had he met him before, and when did Dooku leave the Jedi?

2-Is there any evidence that Sifo-Dyas is Dooku's actual Jedi name and Yoda and Windu did not reveal this to Obi-Wan?

3-What do we think Yoda and Windu know about Sifo-Dyas that could give us a freakin clue god damnit?!?

 

1-How much do we think Obi-Wan knew about Dooku, had he met him before, and when did Dooku leave the Jedi?

I dont think he knows much. We know they had not met, but Obi-Wan knew when he met Dooku, that he was Qui-Gons master. So, He probably knew him by sight (see: statue in library), but not much more.
I dont have the script. I apologize. It is my understanding that Dooku left the jedi approx. 10 years ago.

2-Is there any evidence that Sifo-Dyas is Dooku's actual Jedi name and Yoda and Windu did not reveal this to Obi-Wan?

Nope. Just speculation.
...... mostly mine.

3-What do we think Yoda and Windu know about Sifo-Dyas that could give us a freakin clue god damnit?!?

I think they know who he is, but they chose to respect his wishes (thinking he was just a political idealist), and keep his past private.
What they DONT know (until later) is how bad he really is/was. They were defending him.
"Not a murderer."
"Couldnt assasinate anyone."

Stuuuuuuuuuupiiiiiiiiid.
Now hes hanging people in arenas to be eaten alive by vicious animals.

What a guy!

-----But thats all asumming Sifo-Dyas is Count Dooku.

But still!..
What they know about Sifo-Dyas, IMO is... more than they've told everyone else.

 

What about how they would explain it? What do you think the scene could be like?

I'm really not sure. A flashback to the rise and fall of the sith similar to the prologue in Fellowship of the Ring would do the trick and give Lucas a chance to explain all of the ten thousand things that NEED to be explained. But I can't imagine them putting a flashback of anykind in a Star Wars movie, it just doesn't seem to fit with the style.

This doesn't mean it has to be something the audience knows but the characters don't (although that is the path Lucas has choosen by making the prequels in the first place).

What I meant is; short-term - Sidious = Palpatine, long-term - Vader = Anakin Skywalker.

"I thought he was killed before that."

I totally forgot about this line. But it doesn't seem right clones only grow 2x as fast as humans, the Clones have got to be at least twenty. That's more than ten years. But it's in there I'm sure it's right. Thinking back to this scene, I'd say Mace and Yoda know more than they're letting on.

I think when Dooku left, the Jedi told anybody who asked, that he was dead. "We suck, he quit." Doesnt sound very good.

They'd lie to Obi-Wan too? If I was Obi I'd be pissed. Letting him just leave the order was dangerous, telling everyone he's dead and hoping he never shows up anywhere is just stupid. Did they make a deal with him?

Mace: Ok, you can leave the order, but don't ever let anybody see you. And if you make any deals with shady characters use a cool psuedonym like "Darth Tyranus."

Dooku: Okay dudes!

Mace: Phew! If he hadn't agreed we'd be so screwed.

It would have been a cool prank if he erased every single star system in the archives before he left. And all the Jedi just stayed on coruscant for the rest of their lives and said things like "I remember the galaxy being bigger for some reason."

But I'm WAY off topic again.

 

They'd lie to Obi-Wan too?

They lied to Luke.

If I was Obi I'd be pissed.

And so would I, and so was Luke.

Letting him just leave the order was dangerous, telling everyone he's dead and hoping he never shows up anywhere is just stupid.

Agreed. Thats kinda where my theory gets a little sketchy. It all comes down to who knows who & how much do they know.
Things we can only speculate about until 2005.

Did they make a deal with him?

I think there had to be some type of agreement. They initially defended him, and to me that indicates some type of respect. The way Dooku adresses Mace reinforces that("old friend"), so I dont think they parted on bad terms.
Besides, I'm sure Dooku wouldnt want to make a big fuss anyway. Why draw attention to the fact that he used to be a Jedi? I think that might scare some seperatists away.

 

Oh yeah -

But I can't imagine them putting a flashback of anykind in a Star Wars movie, it just doesn't seem to fit with the style.

I totally agree. I think the closest we'd get is what we've already seen. Remember when Obi-Wan explained everything to Luke in E6?
I think Qui-Gon will do that for Obi-Wan in E3. I'm only speculating, but that makes so much sense to me, and it is so much like the other movies.
GL - "Its like poetry, it rhymes."

 

you guys are having a nice little tete-a-tete here.

I still think the obvious solution is that Dooku either killed Sifo-Dyas, or else used the fact that he was killed (possibly by Jango Fett) to place the order. Lucas suggests this by having the bust of Dooku in the Archives, and later when Dooku tells Mace, "you fought valiantly...worthy of recognition in the Jedi Archives."

Why have such a clumsy line? Who says that: hey arrowhead, you fought well - we'll put you in the Encyclopedia Britannica?!?

Either (a) the line is supposed to show us that Dooku is behind the entire thing on Kamino, including using the name of Sifo-Dyas, or (b) it's a red herring.

It does NOT make sense to me that Dooku, being such a legendary Jedi Master, would have a "Jedi name" that is unfamiliar, especially to Obi-Wan, who in a way is Dooku's grandson in the Force (in that he taught Obi-Wan's master).

My guess is that Dooku was known as "Master Dooku", like "Master Kenobi", and that he has a first name we haven't heard yet. Yoda mocks him with his title "Count Dooku," as Jedi are not supposed to have possessions.

Here's another question:

how many people in the GFFA know that Count Dooku, Leader of the Separatists, is a former Jedi Master?

Plus, I don't think we should take too much stock in the fact that Lama Su says "Sifo-Dyas is still a LEADING MEMBER of the Jedi Council."

Obi-Wan doesn't even recognize the name of Sifo-Dyas the first time, and I'm sure he would personally know every Jedi Master on the Council.

Sifo-Dyas was obviously a Jedi, may have been a Jedi Master, but Dooku (or whoever placed the order) could have told the Kaminoans that he was 3rd behind only Yoda and Mace Windu, and they probably would have believed him.

After all, who knows what the average person in the GFFA knows about the Jedi Order.

If some guy appears to place an order, and he walks like a duck (jedi) and talks like a duck (jedi), who's to say he's not a duck (jedi)?

 

Boo. yah.

Dooku (or whoever placed the order) could have told the Kaminoans that he was 3rd behind only Yoda and Mace Windu, and they probably would have believed him.

True, true, true. We have no proof that Sifo-Dyas was ever on the council. Even when OW asks Mace & Yoda later, "did the council ever AUTHORIZE..." Not: "did you guys place an order", but "did you allow it".
Seems like a relevant difference to me.

hey arrowhead, you fought well - we'll put you in the Encyclopedia Britannica?!?

LOL Nice.

But speaking of clumsy lines.... Back when everybody says "Oh, Lucas hadnt even writtent the whole story yet, Vader wasnt gonna be Lukes dad, Ben didnt lie, blah blah, blah...".
I remember :
"He has too much of his father in him."
"Thats what I'm afraid of."

Kinda obvious, and it seems kinda cheesy now. Maybe its the same kinda thing.

Keep in mind; We are all posting on a Star Wars message board. Most people I know who are not Star Wars fans do not even remember the name Sifo-Dyas. That makes me think:
A) This will never come up again.
B) It will be explained with a couple lines of dialouge. Example: "Sifo-Dyas was a fool. He wanted to join us so we used him and threw him away."
C) Its some kind of sub-plot that is supposed to mean something. So, what could it mean?

Who could it be, that would make it relevant?

 

Sifo-Dyas has to be Count Dooku...If Dooku left the Jedi order hed would have change names. Obi/Ben did it to hide.

Palpy cound not have sat on the council and played senator at the same time.

Maul could not have been Sifo-Dyas or Qui Gon would have known who he was.

Yoda and Mace knew that Dooku changed his name when he left the Jedi Order.

The Jedi are always hiding something anyway. Look at how misleading Yoda was concerning his knowledge of the Sith, using their lightening, and acting as if he can't walk when he can run circles around people if he needs too.

 

Great idea arrowhead!!!!!

Could Qui-gonn explain the entire plot again to Obi-wan, and possibly explain the true prophesy?

Very good idea indeed!!!!

 

Murph - I dont care whos sock you are - you da man. (or woman if it so applies )


Thanks Valin. I dont know what exactly I think QG would say, but ...I dont know - It just seems so right to me. The whole ghost thing with him & Obi-Wan & a little talk about Anakin & Palpatine & whats really at stake (like Padme & The kids).
As for the prophesy..... I dont know. That seems like Mace or Yoda territory. There seem to be certain things that need to be (& HOPEFULLY will be) explained in ths movie. I think they'll split up the dialogue between the key guys. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, & Palpatine. They will be the ones explaining the how and the why. (Aside from the ghost scene. )
Realistically, the ghost thing would have to be a pretty short scene, just like the RotJ one. Too much explanation could get boring, and nobody wants that in their movie, so I think it will be a minute or two. (My guess is right before Obi-Wan goes off to confront Anakin for their big battle. Just a guess.)The Sifo-Dyas thing will be real minor, unless OW feels lied to. This would be his chance to confront QG.

Obi-Wan : "You said Vader betrayed and murdered my..."

oops sorry, wrong quote.

Obi-Wan : "You said Sifo-Dyas was dead!"

Then Qui-Gon could explain the POV thing and tell Obi-Wan thats whats happening with Anakin.
(Then we'd know where he got that, and maybe he wouldnt seem like such a liar to me anymore. lol )

I'm totally speculating, but considering that the first 2 prequels have really mirrored the first 2 originals - E3 is bound to bare some strinking resemblances to E6 - the difference being - The good guys lose.
I've heard Lucas talk about this in the commentaries & interviews & stuff. About how these movies are so much like the first ones, but they'rer about Anakin instead of Luke and he ends up being evil instead of being good. Its all about the choices we make & blah blah blah blah. But after all the blah blah blah - he did actually say...

GL - "Its like a symphony. I use repeating themes."


So, anyway!!

Yeah, Ghost scene. Dig it.

 

oh great,

so now when we watch Episode III and Qui-Gon reveals interesting info to Obi-Wan, arrowhead is TOTALLY going to take credit for it.

I don't really see why Dooku would change his name - well, no, that's not true - I can see why he would, but if he did, it didn't seem to have done any good - the Jedi and Palpatine all know exactly who he is - as well as the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union, etc.

I still think Dooku used the name of Sifo, but was not himself Sifo.

 

Naw, I stole that ghost idea from somebody else. Thers a thread around here somewhere called.... something like : "Will Qui-Gons ghost return?" Or sumthin like that. Good idea, I just kinda ran with it.



the Jedi and Palpatine all know exactly who he is

But they dont think he's evil

as well as the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union, etc.

and they think he's a Count from Serenno.


who knows who?
That is the question.

(.....or is it "who knows whom"? I can never remember that.)




**Whisper**
(Dooku is Sifo-Dyas)