CT Why do some people dislike Vaders Redemption Arc?

It was very common in the EU at least - most notable example was KoTOR II's Darth Nihilus.

 

And I loved the idea behind him, even if he is too over the top for an actual movie.

 

I wonder if there'll be some kind of "life-drainer" in the ST? Kylo Ren maybe? PT involved "creating life" (Anakin - either by the midichlorians alone, or Plagueis's manipulation of them) - ST could take the on the theme and give it its own spin.

 

It's possible. I mean it would be quite the punch in the gut to see any of our beloved favorites (like Han Solo) get drained of their life energy. The technique might be as scary and disturbing as Vader's force choke was.

KotoR II itself seems very inspired by the OT (and I absolutely adore the game). Sion is a mirror to Vader, the broken one who just won't die and is like an unstoppable Juggernaut. Kreia has similarities to Sidious, there's the child/mother relationship towards Sion and the Exile just as there are father/son vibes between Vader and the Emperor (Diarmid even said the saga is about fathers and sons). Lastly, Nihilus reminds one of Sidious as well, because he is like a leech who just drains people/uses them up, like Sidious likes to do.

 

And Sion's love for the Exile, like Vader's love for Luke, ends up being involved in his ending. Albeit in a different way to ROTJ.

 

And in both cases, love seemed to have something to do with their fall as well. I do think it was the love for Kreia, his trust in her, that played a big part in Sion's fall.

 

I never really got that impression from Wookieepedia, the KOTOR Saga Edition Campaign Guide, or the KOTOR II recap I read through (the one where the protagonist is male and called "JediJesus") - but it's possible that I missed something.

 

Well, there are references. Like Sion saying to Kreia (after he spares her), that "her teachings don't whisper through his skull" anymore. So obviously in the past her teachings did influence him greatly. Later in the finale, he basically defends her when you go to fight Kreia. You can say to him that Kreia never meant anything to you and he responds: "Then you didn't deserve her". Even after they basically betrayed each other, he still holds a lot of affection towards her.

 

Fair enough. I do wonder who Sion and Nihilus were before they were Sith Lords. I know there were a lot of theories that Kreia was a false name, and that she was actually Arren Kae - but that's never been confirmed one way or another.

 

That depends on if he realized how much Palpatine twisted his thoughts about democracy. Or he wouldn't care about his own views and just do the right thing, which was something he was always in favor of.

 

The KotoR comics, though I love Zayne's journey, have kind of made a mess of everything. I mean the guy who is supposed to become Sion suddenly turns into some sort of spiritual Jedi leader.

 

Something of a subversion, a "I bet you were expecting those hints to actually be confirmed, didn't you?" tease.

 

Well, the guy actually calls himself Sion once, so the writer did screw up there.

 

I thought he was musing about about calling him that? Need to reread the scene again.

 

The villain says "Maybe you should take a Darth name - Darth Luzion? Darth Sion?" - and in the final scene - he thinks about the possibility of starting down the path becoming a "Lord of Pain" - before turning away.

 

That's what I thought.

 

For it to work for me, Luke can't be the reason for Vader's redemption, he must be the impetus for a broader sense of remorse, which is the reason.

 

There's fans who don't like that???

 

I find a lot of the people who can't forgive Vader's attrocities are the same ones who would gladly go see an American war criminal speak, and applaud them loudly, and shake their hand, and get their autograph, and tell them how much they admire them.

 

I can understand some people taking issue with it if they look at redemption as a balancing of the scales. Personally I don't see it that way but I can see their point.

 

News to me.

 

People tend to live by either an eye for an eye mentality, or the belief of karma. Not many want to believe in the notion of being forgiven if you repent at the last minute. They want real punishment and real effort.

 

I want to bring up something that is somewhat relevant to this, and see what you all think.

I'm sure everyone here knows about Nazi Germany, comparisons to it are made to the Empire a lot anyway. To this day, modern Germany tries to continue to try and cleanse itself of that past. It was definitely a horrible thing that happened - and, unlike the Empire, this actually happened in the real world. Hope no history lessons have to be given!

One step Germany seems to take, which is politically debatable, is charging former Nazis with war crimes and such. A 93 year old man named Oskar Gröning was a Nazi SS-Unterscharführer (Sergeant, I believe) at Auschwitz, and is linked to over 300,000 deaths. Unforgivable, right? Not exactly. Some viral images are going around with an Aushwitz survivor named Eva Kor and Gröning embracing each other. Now, I don't want to go too much further into this, because different people are interpreting this in different ways, and a real political debate here is probably not of interest.

It's not quite the same thing as the whole Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker redemption arc, but it involved a person who committed unforgivable atrocities and eventually "redeemed" themselves and was forgiven by victim(s). Luke wasn't quite a direct victim, but he experienced the tragedy first-hand. Gröning wasn't necessarily "redeemed" in the same sense, of course, but he admitted his crimes, says he has moral guilt for it, and asks for forgiveness. That's pretty much what Vader did, in a more extreme way. Another thing to consider is that these people were screws in a much more elaborate thing - Gröning for Hitler's Holocaust, Vader for the Emperor's Empire and Sith rule (although, Vader was much bigger, of course).

Anyway, to add my two cents, I loved the redemption arc, and quite frankly it really saddens me. He (Skywalker/Vader) definitely did some unforgivable things, but in the end, he was good and manipulated by evil. It happens to a lot of people.

 

Funny thing about black and white. You mix it together and you get grey. And it doesn't matter how much white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but grey. Lilah Morgan

Vader killing the Emperor doesn't balance the scales and absolve him of his sins. They are too numerous to count. But he did make a choice. He went against the Dark Side philosophy knowing he wouldn't survive it. The best he could hope for is saving Luke. Which he did.