"Will of the force". What does this mean?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AnakinSucks, Jul 11, 2007.

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  1. AnakinSucks Jedi Knight

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    Sep 15, 2005
    star 3
    E.g. "Obi-wan beat Vader because of the force"

    At the same time, the Jedi believe in free will.

    This "Will of the Force" stuff just sounds like superstitious nonsense.

    There is no evidence for it.

    There is evidence for the existence of Force Ghosts, but even before they were invented the Jedi seemed to view faith as a virtue.

    The "bring balance to the force" argument doesn't help.

    What does it even mean, and how do you know when you have balance?

    Why do the Jedi believe that the Force actually thinks like a person?



  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Oct 23, 2003
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    That's what happens when you sit around for a thousand years and meditate on the infinite number of possibilities that the future holds.

    [image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/Wrongbmx.jpg]

    Each generation of Jedi lost touch with the present and the sins of the Masters were passed to their Padawans. Not to mention that Yoda directly influenced the intital stages of Jedi training and personally oversaw the progression of thousands of younglings for at least 250 to 300 hundred years.

    They became so pompous that within their ranks politics were encouraged in order to advance one's status. They became the corrupt because they could not see the error of their ways, that they had become stagnant. That's what can happen when ONE Jedi holds such inluence for soo long. Yoda was very much like older grandparents that aren't in-touch with the times, and the entire Order took on that same trait. The Sith simply adapted a new stategy, then when the Jedi became ripe for the picking, they kicked the Jedi Order's collective backside for standing still.
  3. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Why do the Jedi believe that the Force actually thinks like a person?

    They don't. Obi-Wan explains what's meant by it in the RotS novel

    "Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth-if any truth is ever simple-is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery."
  4. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    I believe this topic was either discussed here or in the saga forum. It wasn't too long ago.
    But for the sake of conversation and current insomnia, I'll reply once more.

    The will of the force as I interpret means the natural course of all things. Remember all living things are connected within the force and therefore have a pre determined destiny. Yet what I don't get is the preaching of free will, just like yourself. Anakin has a choice to make, either let go of Padme and destroy the sith or join them and destroy the jedi. Each choice has a different outcome.

    Yet it was the force's will that in a time of darkness, Luke stumbles upon 3po and r2, his fathers old droids who led him to Obi Wan, his fathers old master. A perfect example in the PT of the will of the force was the attack on the Queen's cruiser and how Tatooine, Anakin's planet just happens to be right there. Anakin wins the podrace and secures his freedom. I guess it's looked at as luck, if you consider finding Anakin luck.
  5. AnakinSucks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2005
    star 3
    He seems to suggest that there is something very special there, and that the force does actually have some sort of Will.

    IMO, the force should be viewed upon as a tool - that is all it appears to be.


  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    In the beginning, Lucas had the Force as a religion and not a power. The Jedi would say "May the Force of all Others, be with you." It was with the second draft that the Force became an energy feild that the Jedi and the Sith could use. But it was when Lucas and Kasdan created the concept of Force visions, that the Force started to become something more. In ANH, the Force controls the actions and can be controlled as well. It is with the PT, that Lucas reveals that the Force is much more than that. That everything has a destiny, which is mentioned throughout the OT. There are two aspects to the Force. The Living Force which has to do with the here and now, with sensing lifeforms and it is what creates life. Then there is the Cosmic/Unifying Force which has to do with destiny. The Jedi do believe in free will, but they also know that there are things that are destined to happen. But one must be willing to follow that destiny through to its conclusion.

    The Force is based on all types of religious beliefs, both Eastern and Western, though more so from the East. It is a combination of the various philosophies. The Force creates life and its energy is everywhere, waiting to be used. But it must be used properly. This comes back to the symbiosis aspect of the Force. The Force and the Jedi work together to maintain peace and harmony. The Jedi wish to know all there is to know of the Force, of the greater mystery of life. The Force provides some answers. Other times, it shows them through visions. As Qui-gon said, nothing happens by chance and things are meant to happen for a resaon. Obi-wan sums it up as there is no such thing as luck, in his experience.
  7. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

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    It is with the PT, that Lucas reveals that the Force is much more than that. That everything has a destiny, which is mentioned throughout the OT. There are two aspects to the Force. The Living Force which has to do with the here and now, with sensing lifeforms and it is what creates life. Then there is the Cosmic/Unifying Force which has to do with destiny. The Jedi do believe in free will, but they also know that there are things that are destined to happen. But one must be willing to follow that destiny through to its conclusion.


    But its interesting to note that not once is the word "destiny" used in the PT.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    PALPATINE: "You are fulfilling your destiny, Anakin."

    That was after Mace was killed.
  9. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    He does, but also explicitly states that it may not have a literal will.
  10. anakinandpadmedoomed Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2007
    star 4
    I think the force is really just like nature, just the way yoda explains it.:)
  11. AnakinSucks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2005
    star 3
    I think in that day and age science would give them good enough answers to these questions without all the speculation.

    It seems like a religion, as I am now told it was meant to be at one point.

    This also explains that guy mocking Vader's "religion" despite Vader providing evidence for the existence of it.

    Lucas must have got caught between two thoughts in the beginning.

    A good way to surrender to it is to never mention it.

    It is nothing but a thing that beings use at the end of the day.



  12. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    The Force is too big for a mortal mind to grasp, in my opinion. How would you study it scientifically? At best, you can seemingly influence its balance by starting wars and such (the Sith did exactly that, and the Jedi did their own version by attempting to keep things on an even keel, although how succcessful they were at that is obviously open to debate :p) but otherwise, it seems like a person's ability to manipulate the Force is on big events only; subtle manipulation of it doesn't seem possible.
  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    What doesn't seem to fit with this talk about the will of the force and such, is that the future is constantly in motion. Sounds to me like the maxi-big-Force can't make up its mind.:p
  14. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I just interpret that as being part of how individual will plays a part in the Force.

    See? We can't think big enough for the Force. :p
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The future is in motion based on what you do. Case in point, in Anakin's first vision of Padme dying, he sees only Padme. He doesn't see where she is, nor who she is with. Then he sees that Obi-wan is there, but he is wearing his cloak. When we finally see Obi-wan with Padme, he isn't wearing his cloak at all. It's still aboard the skiff. Things change and one must recognize and accept that.

    As advanced as the technology is in the GFFA, its still wholefully inadequte (sp). It still cannot identify what the Force is or how it truly functions. The only part that is defined is that the Midichlorians play a part in one's ability to use the Force. It's the same way science has yet to disapprove of religion.
  16. Jango10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2002
    star 5
    I believe the Force has always been an omnipotent being, almost. In the OT the Rebels say, "May the Force be With Us." I can see that as being the same as "God speed."

    "The Force is what gives a Jedi its power."

    It is not what the Jedi take their power from. Lucas believed the Force to be a greater power than the Jedi or anyone, and they ask the Force for guidance. They let the Force guide them, not use the Force to guide themselves.

    Lucas never intended it to just be a tool.
  17. AnakinSucks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2005
    star 3
    Well, some might say that it has, for all intents and purposes.

    In reality, we accept that is disproves negatives all the time.

    I am an atheist with regard to all of the many Gods that people have said exist, but what about a person who is clinically delusional? That person is diagnosed with a certain illness, and psychiatrists try their best to treat it (though here we are waiting on some helpful neurological evidence to come through).

    Whilst humans seem to have a predisposition toward religion, I am sure that an evolved society (they have hyper-drive!) would not be stuck with this.

    I always thought that force lightning/chucking things at enemies/impressing girls by making fruit fly etc was subtle manipulation of the force.

  18. AnakinSucks Jedi Knight

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    Sep 15, 2005
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    Actually, I was thinking that the Sith might have opposed this, but I now remember that in Dark Lord, Sidious tells Vader that the force may have had other plans for him - referring to his failure at Mustafar.

    Mind you, he does use a sympathetic tone, and I got the feeling that he was just appealing to Vader?s sense of what the force may be, as Vader had only had it explained to him by the Jedi at that point.
  19. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    More often than not, I get the feeling that the definition of the Force gets twisted to suit whomever is using/speaking/writing about it, at that time. I miss the old days when it was just a mystical energy field.
  20. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    It's kind of like how everyone is doing "God's work" here on Earth. If you're going to a Burger King to kill 20 people with an Uzi, and claim it's the Will of God, whose to say otherwise? Of course, if someone kills you in the act, or if your Uzi jams and you get arrested, or if you slip on a banana peel and break your neck outside the front door, then that was the Will of God. Winner gets the bragging rights.

    It's also an easy way to explain things that, logically, shouldn't have happened, like Obi-Wan beating Anakin, Darth Maul and General Grievous, or Luke succeeding in the Death Star attack, etc.
  21. AnakinSucks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2005
    star 3
    But in today's sports, odd things happen.

    Wladimir Klitschko "should not" have lost to Brewster, Purity and perhaps Sanders.

    Lewis certainly "should not" have lost to Rahman.

    As for Luke, perhaps he was simply using the force as a tool.
  22. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    I wouldn't say so. By 'subtle' I mean affecting the Force on a universal scale with little effort. I doubt a Force push does that. :p
  23. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    I agree with Sx3 that the force has a 'personal' meaning to each different person.

    I also agree with DarthBoba in that each person plays a part in the collective force.

    The path that the force developed in the saga, and Obi-Wan's explanation in the novel cited above, show that the 'Jedi' version of the force is essentially a massive collective of things influencing other things. Each creature, no matter how small, shapes it. A Jedi sensing the force is sort of like on of Timothy Learey's disciples "tuning in" without the "dropping out" part.

    Think of the analogy of the butterfly flapping its wings in the tropics influencing the weather in Kansas. The wind, which blows a leaf in the butterfly's path and causes the insect to change course influences it. Each decision every living thing makes, often in response to some natural occurance, eventually influences every other living thing over time -- sometimes a very, very long time.

    For instance, I'm in a hurry driving to work. A mellow driver pulls out of a side street in front of me and then abruptly stops at a traffic light that is just turning yellow-to-red. I would have run through the light. The person stopping in front of me stopped me -- changed the course of my life by the minute I spent sitting behind them at the light. I miss by just one minute people I would have perhaps stopped and spoken to. I meet others that I might not have if I were that one minute earlier. That drive at the traffic light and that one minute difference alter my existence. This happens thousands of times every day in countless other ways.

    Some people get wrapped up in having others gain undo influence in their lives -- making them lose one minute at the traffic light. They become controlling while attempting to make things happen 'their' way. This give them more of a feeling of control over the various 'random' events that influence their lives, and they like it so much that they seek situations or postions where they can expand that control over others.

    Those who adapt to the unforeseen things that alter their lives and accept it as their destiny accept "the will of the force." Other intelligent and non-intelligent things come into and change their lives and they expect it, look forward to what comes and adopt a philosophy that this is what is meant to be. Those who cannot tolerate others 'getting in their way' are pulling things out of balance, both for themselves and for those around them, using "the force" for their sole benefit (or at least trying to).

    So the "will of the force" is really nothing more than accepting where one is as they move through life. I do not mean to say that a Jedi does not deliberately try to influence events or even people, but when they do so, it is not solely for their personal benefit, but the benefit of other persons or some noble or important cause. And they use that influence rarely, letting events play out the way "the will of the force" intends.

    Perhaps "the will of the force" is best defined by psychologist C.J. Jung's "collective unconsciousness" theory, only it is not just 'humanity,' but all various organisms moving along, connected in ways we little understand, yet with some mysterious purpose that somehow eventually influences and benefits all the others.
  24. anakinandpadmedoomed Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2007
    star 4
    I still stick by my.force of nature aspect..and no religion is involved .there's no proof religon is involved with the force..
  25. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    There's Motti's statement that "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes". so at least to the galaxy at large the Jedi and Sith are religious organizations.
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