Will the Completion of the Saga Change the Way We Look at the EU

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by OldieVonMoldie, Feb 23, 2003.

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  1. KenKenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 6
    Ah, the old "parallel universe" debate...

    Well, let me put to rest any debate surrounding the "parallel universe" idea- too many times are George's quotes misinterpreted, and this is a prime example. ;)



      "Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology."
      -Sue Rostoni of LucasBooks and Allan Kausch of Lucas Licensing, from Star Wars Insider #23


    This is furthered by another statement from Sue, here...

      "Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays. Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon."
      -Sue Rostoni, from Star Wars Gamer #6



    Generally, this is interpreted to mean that something is only guaranteed true if it's in the films, while the other material is included in the overall continuity but not guaranteed (it can be overriden by new Lucas films eg- the "Death Star" beginning even further before Bevel Lemelisk's final designs. )For those who are slow on the uptake, or just want to argue the subject until your fingers are raw from typing, let's make a graphical depiction of this policy:

    [image=http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/Continuity.png]


    In other words, the canon movies are guaranteed to be in the overall continuity, and "much of" but not all of the EU literature is also in the overall continuity, and the only EU not in the continuity is the Infinities. The only fact that the EU is considered a secondary source is because it is subordinate to new films (which, at the moment, means it is only subordinate to events to take place in Episode III).


      "There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."
      -George Lucas



    Did you notice that? The EU materials do not "intrude" in the pieces of time where the movies take place, but "they do intrude in between the movies", in George Lucas' own words! Yes, George mentioned "parallel universe", but he also said that the EU does intrude on his continuity!

    The overall continuity of Star Wars is a tapestry which includes time before, between, and after the movies. In all those pieces of time outside the events depicted in the movies themselves, the EU "intrudes" on that continuity. Case closed; if we want to respect the wishes of George Lucas and Lucasfilm, we cannot ignore the official literature. ;)


    However, entitled to your opinion as you are, you can consider the EU not a part of the Star Wars Universe (which falls hand in hand with the feeling that "fans get a piece of the Star Wars Universe to themselves" concept :) ), although Lucas and his affiliates approve of the EU as part of the Star Wars Universe. ;) :)


    Ken Kenobi- And you have a nice day ;)
  2. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    HEADLINE:
    Shelley Does Not Like Expanded Universe Material!! Shock & Awe [face_plain]

    In all seriousness, your dislike of EU comes as no surprise. I'm not going to delve into a discussion of "canon," or parallel universes, but suffice it to say that the dislike that some fans harbor towards EU has no effect on LFL's policy.

    As far as the quote "...and when asked, he couldn't come up with a single EU story he liked," I'd like to see your source on that, if you please. Every verifiable source I've seen about the Flanneled One's opinions about the EU range from purposeful ignorance to explicit approval. I've never seen anything to indicate dislike or disapproval on his part. (EDIT) Moreover, I'd love to see the quote itself, and not just your interpretation of it.

    Anyways, back on topic. Will the Completion of the Saga Change the Way I Look at the EU? Not likely. I don't follow post RotJ stuff too closely, but I've thoroughly enjoyed Rise of the Empire era material.
  3. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Quote from Lucas in TV Guide:

    Interviewer: "YET NOVELISTS HAVE WRITTEN "STAR WARS" SEQUELS USING THE SAME CHARCTERS AND EXTENDING THEIR STORIES"

    Lucas: "Oh sure. They are done outside of my little universe. "Star Wars" has a lot of different lives that have been worked on by a lot of different people. It works without me."

    Steve Sansweet:

    "When you want the true, absolute canon, you have to look to the films, and only the films."

    While I can understand the complaint that some of the writing in EU may not be up to your personal standards (I'll give Aunecah_Skywalker that concession) Expanded Universe is an officially licensed product of Lucasfilm,

    So are Jar Jar coloring books.

    and is carefully reviewed to remain "true" with the ideas of the films by George Lucas.

    Not that carefully, because almost none of it true with the ideas of the films by George Lucas. Hence crap like, "There is no Dark Side," and the idea that Mara and Thrawn were on the same level as Vader (wishful thinking much, Zahn?) in Palpatine's eyes.

    Even starwars.com has begun to include EU information into their database on the timeline.

    And...?

    Shelly,

    Shelley.

    for the last time...where (I want exact citing) is this supposed quote of GL refering to EU as a "parallel universe?" I want to read it for myself, to determine if you are taking something he said out of context. (very possible IMO)

    Someone else, an EU fan, provided it. It's not out of context. He very clearly says that the EU is a parallel universe, and refers to it with terms like "intruding."

    He has said he doesn't get too involved in the EXPANDED UNIVERSE (get it right)...that could be interpreted as his decision to not make movies beyond ROTJ came from the fact that the authors of EU had written a well developed storyline

    No. He said himself that the idea of nine movies was a joking remark he made during an interview, that the media took and reported as fact. When asked if he planned to make another trilogy after Episode III, he said deadpan, "I don't think I'll live that long." The post-ROTJ EU is not well-developed, it is a seesawing mess, with characters not acting consistent with how they are in the movies, or even with other EU novels.

    (with the approval of HIS own production company LUCASFILM)

    With his rubber stamp, disinterested approval, yes.

    that there was enough of a timeline already done.

    Yeah, a parallel timeline that isn't part of the SW universe, thank heavens.

    I believe we've found the "thermal exhaust port" in your theory!!!

    Not really. He's more involved in the prequel EU than he is with the post-ROTJ stuff, but he's still not nearly as involved in it as he is with the movies. He has direct and extensive involvement in the movies, unlike his rubber-stamp approval of general storylines and an occasional idea here and there, which is the case with the EU.

    Apparently, he like the story of Aayla Secura enough to bring her character to life in AOTC!!!

    He wanted a Twi'lek Jedi to appear in the background. Conveniently enough, the EU character Aayla Secura is a Twi'lek Jedi. The artists have to draw a lot of characters/ships, so it makes sense that they'd look to comics and such for inspiration. They then show the stuff to Lucas. I very much doubt Lucas recognizes it as Aayla Secura or whatever EU character's ship. More like, "Cool-looking character/ship. Use it."

    Don't be surprised if we see alot of EU developments in Episode III, which tie PT and OT through subtle references to events of prequel EU.

    There might be references to prequel EU, yes. But people who are looking for red-haired little girls or blue-skinned Imperial officers are likely to be disappointed.

    So you don't like Jaina because you can't understand how the daughter of Han and Leia Solo could feel like she has to be better then the "legend" of her own mother.

    That's not what the brat thought. The brat smirked to herself about how great she was with
  4. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Quote from Lucas in TV Guide...ok, now we're getting somewhere. Can you be more specific on the issue date? (there have been alot of them)

    It works without me...again, this part is something new (and I feel you've left out on purpose). That statement can be viewed as Lucas feels he (and his company) have delegated that aspect of the overall SW timeline to the writers of EU. You'll note the very important part of "It works"...regardless of it's level of Flanneled One's personal involvment.

    He's more involved in the prequel EU than he is with the post-ROTJ stuff That's understandable, because to paraphrase another sci-fi genre:

    "Damn it Jim, I'm a director...not an author!"

    He (and/or his continuity people) would have to pay more attention to the events of prequel EU...to ensure it does not conflict with GL's movies.

    "Tatooine Ghost" are what the EU should've been all along...I've had the honor of speaking with Troy Denning recently.
    THE JEDI KNIGHTS OF CLEVELAND pictures and we had a good discussion of GL/Lucasfilm's involvment in EU writing. Basically, he was given the job of writing "Star by Star"...including the basic outline of events that MUST happen; he was told this BEFORE "Vector Prime" (the 1st book in NJO) was even on bookshelves.

    The reason I mention this is because he pointed out that Lucasfilm gives a very detailed outline of plot and character developments that MUST occur to fit in with the "official" Lucasfilm timeline. And that when it came to Tatooine Ghost...he was given specific instructions (by Lucas' people) about what he could do in terms of character development. So your comment of the writers of EU are not remaining "true" to the characters portrayed in the movies doesn't have much room to stand on.
  5. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Krash: So your comment of the writers of EU are not remaining "true" to the characters portrayed in the movies doesn't have much room to stand on.

    Not true. While I'm not going to say that I wish the EU simply didn't exist and that it isn't evne part of canon, I'm going to argue about the characterization in the books being true to that portrayed of the characters in the movies. Please read the EU and tell me that Luke from the movie is anywhere the same as the Luke in the books.

    Here's a guy who destroyed the Death Star, and led to Vader killing Palpatine. With the single exception of Truce at Bakura, which does okay on Luke's characterization, every other book shows him as weak-minded, too philosophical, and too clueless about everything. The only thing that the EU authors got right is that Luke is too compassionate to consider killing as anything but the last choice. [face_plain]

    Aunecah
  6. Jedi_Liz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    back to the topic at hand:


    Will the completion of the Saga change the way I look at the EU?

    Heck, no. I love the EU. After all the movies are completed, its all I'll have left to give me my star wars fix. I may even read some prequel EU.




    And, I think what Lucas meant by "intruding" was that the books don't happen exactly during the movies, with the exception of the "Tales" stories.

  7. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Hee, nice to see you here Liz. :)

    Aunecah
  8. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Quote from Lucas in TV Guide...ok, now we're getting somewhere. Can you be more specific on the issue date? (there have been alot of them)

    November 2001. It was when TPM was first telecast.
  9. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    All right guys, I think we should turn off from the "EU canon or not" discussion and stick to the actual purpose of this thread.

    It's getting a little too hostile in here, and I'm sure our Mod's NOT going to like it. :)

    Aunecah
  10. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Good idea, A_S.

    Again, to answer the question, no. The completion of the saga will not change the way I look at the EU.

    Canon debates are useless. My apologies to those I have offended.
  11. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Please read the EU and tell me that Luke from the movie is anywhere the same as the Luke in the books.

    To answer that question I must ask...is Luke the same in ROTJ as when we first met him in ANH? Of course, not. We all shange over time, I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago...or even 4 years ago. If the authors of EU portrayed the main characters of OT, without any kind of growth...that would make the SW boring.

    I thought some of the best writing for Han was during his "turned into a drunk who blames his youngest kid for Chewie's death and then runs out on his wife and kids." (as Shelley puts it) phase. In particular, i liked Han's analogy of being "in a bubble" we as fans think our heroes can't get hurt...that the laser blast will always miss. The events of NJO proved to the heroes (as well as fans) that there is still danger in the universe; something the films did a good job of portraying (Leia gets shot...Luke loses hand) and they (and the next generation of Skywalkers) must continue the fight.

    read the EU and tell me that Luke from the movie is anywhere the same as the Luke in the books.
    What did you think was going to happen after ROTJ? Luke has the double-edged dilemma of restoring the jedi order (with little background on the old ways) all the while appeasing the politicians that he (and his sister)...the children of Anakin Skywalker are not going to become another Darth Vader. Of course that would make Luke overly cautious about the actions of the jedi....resulting in the "weak-minded, too philosophical" (as you describe it) actions.

    One of the things I've liked about Luke (in recent books) has been his stepping up and taking charge of the situation ("Star by Star" and beyond)...something his wife (the "minimal strengths Mara"...according to Shelley) and other jedi have been looking to him for leadership on.

    Safe to say, there is some difference of opinions on the effectivness of post-ROTJ EU characters. Getting back to the basic subject of this thread...prequel EU:

    Krash:Even starwars.com has begun to include EU information into their database on the timeline.
    Shelley:And...?

    If you don't find that George Lucas' starwars.com website has begun to incorporate EU into the overall "official" timeline an interesting fact...nothing I can say will make that Bantha drink water!

    But people who are looking for red-haired little girls or blue-skinned Imperial officers are likely to be disappointed....for once we agree. However, there are more subtle things that can be brought from EU to Episode III to complete the "circle of life" know as SW timeline. (Dreadnaught cruisers and Victory Star-Destroyers being some examples)

    so it makes sense that they'd look to comics and such for inspiration...especially if that comic book character is already an officialy accepted Star Wars character.
    from EU to AOTC
    The section I'd pay particular reference to is:
    After seeing artist Jon Foster's original cover art for issue #33 of the ongoing Star Wars series, Writer/Director George Lucas saw star potential. Aayla Secura, a blue-skinned Padawan, embodied Jedi strength and Twi'lek femininity in an eye-catching combination of beauty and power.

    So it would appear, Amy Allen (recently named "honorary member of The Jedi Knights of Cleveland Fanforce) is strong proof that GL has seen the potential of EU (and it's new characters) to contribute to his already existing list of characters.

    Aayla Secura database entry
  12. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Of course the heroes aren't invincible. I remember after my mother took my sister and me to see ESB (I was 8 at the time), my sister (who was 11) said something about how Luke was always getting hurt, especially compared to the first movie.

    However, I do not like how the EU has tormented the Big Three endlessly, and made them incompetent fools to boot. I've been asked if I think they're supposed to be the best at everything in the entire galaxy. No, of course not. But it seems like every single EU character is better at something than one of the Big Three, or in the case of Mara, better at everything than all of them. It's just as tiresome to see the Big Three get rings run around them all the time as it would be to see them presented as omniscient and omnipotent. And seeing their endless suffering is very tiresome. The EU gets praised for its realism, but I don't want realism when it comes to SW. I want fantasy. If I wanted realism, I'd go elsewhere.

    Just my two cents.

    One of the things I've liked about Luke (in recent books) has been his stepping up and taking charge of the situation ("Star by Star" and beyond)...something his wife (the "minimal strengths Mara"...according to Shelley) and other jedi have been looking to him for leadership on.

    FINALLY. It's about time he quit letting Mara boss him around. However, she continues to get all these mysterious promotions -- she's telling the CoS what to do.

    If you don't find that George Lucas' starwars.com website has begun to incorporate EU into the overall "official" timeline an interesting fact...

    Looks to me like they keep the two separate. There's a movie section and an EU section. The characters' bios are likewise separated.

    is strong proof that GL has seen the potential of EU

    No, he saw the potential of that particular EU character. Or rather, how she looked. All he saw was a cover illustration.

    (and it's new characters) to contribute to his already existing list of characters.

    Only one. And IMO there isn't a single EU character that can contribute to his already existing list of characters. Most of them undermine his list of characters, either by their very existence or by their actions.
  13. Daughter_of_Yubyub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2002
    star 6
    I will admit that I am sick to death of every random person being a stronger Jedi than Luke. The Solo kids and baby Ben being as strong or stronger works, but not all these random students of his.

    That said, I don't read the EU for Jedi. :p
  14. New_York_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 6
    However, I do not like how the EU has tormented the Big Three endlessly, and made them incompetent fools to boot.

    Well, I thought Han and Leia pulled some pretty slick tricks in Rebel Dream, Rebel Stand and Destiny's Way
    ...I never thought they looked incompetent at any point in any of the EU books. Could you give us a couple of examples, perhaps?
  15. JacensGirl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think the Big Three were made to look incompetent but even if they were, you should remember that they're getting older and the younger generation is slowly replacing them. I'm afraid that's the circle of life, my friends.
  16. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Seriously - There's a difference between Luke's character changing and Luke's character being murdered. Luke of RotJ is NOTHING like the Luke in the EU. Here's a guy who did all the great things in the movies - and suddenly, in the books, we end up with practically every single Jedi lecturing him on the rules of being a Jedi. [face_plain] That is plainly wrong.

    I don't have nearly as many complaints toward Han and Leia's characterization as I have with Luke's.

    I know I'm probably going to set off the third world war here when I say this, but ... The worst thing that happened to him is Mara, but she's not the only thing.

    EDIT: *Sigh* I just realized something - guys, this really isn't the place to discuss the issue of whether or not EU is canon. (Of course, you ask why I'm arguing - well, I'm human too, and I can't resist.)

    Hence, I suggest that we wait on this discussion until we get a yes or a no from the Mod. I will PM him with the question. :)

    Aunecah
  17. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Amen, Aunecah_Skywalker. I agree completely with what you've said. Han and Leia were damaged but not irreperably. Much of the damage that was inflicted on them at the beginning of the NJO has been corrected, and the most grievous of all the character assassinations -- in COPL -- has been corrected as well as it can possibly be in "Tatooine Ghost."

    Luke is another matter. I see no hope for him. It's as if Luke was killed and his clone Luuke replaced him.
  18. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    But SW has always had a measure of realism to it, from the production design of the movies...to the conflicts the characters deal with. What makes good fantasy, is creating a fantasy world with aspects of the our own reality, for the audience to relate to.

    Looks to me like they keep the two separate. There's a movie section and an EU section.
    Yes, for the sake of organization...they've seperated the movie and EU database; but the fact remains that the EU events are given equal (when not in conflict with the movies) respect. However, every bio in The Star Wars Encyclopedia is a combination of movie and EU.

    "About the book" (page xi)
    The creative folks at Lucasfilm spend a great deal of time and effort to ensure everything published fits together. - Steve Sansweet

    every random person being a stronger Jedi than Luke...I think part of that is Luke's reluctance to open up his abilities (as demonstrated in Dark Empire, where he thought he could beat the Clone Emperor at his own game...and got caught up in the dark side) I think in recent books, we've seen Luke realize that if he doesn't assume command of the jedi...there won't be much of the Republic to protect. And many people forget when Jacen was captured on Belkadan...Luke came in and went "Crouching Tiger" on a couple Vong. And later, he made a very public display of Kyp WILL start listening to Master Skywalker's judgment (much like the Obi-Wan/Anakin argument in AOTC)

    there isn't a single EU character that can contribute to his already existing list of characters...BTW, Amy says she's excited about being more involved in Episode III. If not for EU, this jedi order we've heard so much about would only be a handful of jedi council members and a couple younglings. However, there is a wide range of EU characters to fill those gaps.

    EDIT: Hence, I suggest that we wait on this discussion until we get a yes or a no from the Mod. I will PM him with the question
    Don't go crying to a mod...just because you've come across a different "certain point of view." I think I'll offer another perspective to that argument.
  19. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    None of the EU characters qualify to fill any gaps in the movies.

    Luke has shown some improvement in recent books, but it's a day late and a dollar short.
  20. JacensGirl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 4
    No offense but alot of the EU characters weren't meant to fill the gaps between the movies.
  21. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    With all due respect, You said at the beginning of this thread you know almost nothing of the Eu, shelley, so how can you know that none of the EU characters can fit the gaps between the movies?

    With all due respect, JacensGirl, I said no such thing.

    This is what I said:

    Nope. I'll still think the EU is a pale, poorly done imitation of the movies.

    I like that the saga ends happily in ROTJ. I hate that the EU has done nothing but put the characters through endless misery, and degraded them in favor of various Mary Sues and Gary Stus.

    I, like Lucas, consider the EU a parallel universe that exists outside the movies. It is in no way equal to or on the same level as the movies.
  22. JacensGirl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 4
    Sorry! *winces* I misread something
  23. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    No problem. :)

    BTW, Jacen is one of the few EU characters I like.
  24. JacensGirl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 4
    in reply to your real message,
    (sorry again, that was pretty stupid of me)

    The end of the EU has yet to happen, how do you know they won't end the EU also on a good note?

    Also, in real life, aren't people going through continuous struggles? If SW ended like any other "...and they all lived happily ever after" kind of story, wouldn't it get awfully boring after a while?
  25. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Well, why can't the FANS decide?

    I mean, how one feels about the EU, whether or not you like it-it should be up to the individual. I for one love it, and to me it and the movie are all together one big huge saga. But that's ME.

    Shelley, on the other hand, does not like the EU, with maybe a few exceptions, I believe, and doesn't consider it SW at all. And that's fine too.

    Art is subjective, for the most part. Unless you're talking about, say, Thomas Kinkade. *shudder*


    Another thing is that the printed media is sometimes different from that of film. You can expand (no pun intended!) on things more in books, but there's only so much you can have in a two-hour film. But they're both important.

    I'm more of an EU fan, in that I'm more of a reader than a movie watcher, and I'm definitely more into the little details and descriptions and backstories. I love finding out EVERYTHING.

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