ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

I assume the mods still want the Plagueis conversation in this special thread. But maybe not? Darth Chiznuk

 

How do you all think that Snoke was able to corrupt Ben Solo? In my mind, there are (at least) two broad possibilities. See below:

a) Snoke was personally close to Ben (and Luke?). He may have been a teacher a Luke's Jedi Academy...appearing to be good, while biding his time and corrupting Luke's students from inside the school, with devastating results. However, he would also have to be VERY powerful and VERY crafty to be able to pull this off without Luke suspecting anything until it was too late.

This would make for a really powerful hatred between Luke and Snoke...as opposed to Snoke just being a generic bad guy at the head of the First Order, who only hates Jedi because the plot calls for him to do so. It might also explain how Snoke became so badly scarred/wounded, and how Luke's mechanical hand is exposed. Just picture Luke and Snoke in a mighty battle after Luke returns to find his student murdered by Snoke, Ben and the Knights of Ren (several of Luke's former students, turned bad). Both Snoke and Luke live...but they carry the scars of battle.

OR...

b) Snoke is from a place far away and has little or no connection to the Jedi or the Sith (or any characters from the previous films). He communicated with Ben from a great distance, and in private. The upside of this is that Snoke can be kind of a "limitless" new character...although obviously we haven't seen him use his (considerable?) powers yet. The downside is that he will have to be tied into the overall story in a meaningful way. He can't be Palpatine 2.0. Mind you, though, it might be nice to see him as some kind of Dark Side Wizard, who is totally unconstrained by religious ideology (e.g. has no respect for Sith laws like the Rule of Two, or isn't afraid to use the Light side of the Force if necessary / for his own benefit).

 

I think option B is more likely. I'm thinking, like Palpaltine, Snoke somehow earned Ben's trust by showing him how "wise" he is through some sort of manipulation and earning his trust.

 

Yep with the timelines coming into play and Snoke's damage to his body I highly doubt he ever had some association with Luke now. Maybe just some very old big baddie that hid out somehow and knew Ben was a prime target once the time was right. Snoke probably started the manipulation through the force putting crazy thoughts in Ben's head before even meeting him.

 

There is no rule against Plagueis being discussed in this thread. You've been told this before and nothing has changed. We don't yet know who Snoke is so as long as the discussion stays civil any theory is welcome. Even if the theory is unlikely.

 

I didnt like how the OT dealt with the aging Obi-Wan at all but I know it was because of the limitations back then. Since the lightsaber fights were slow and deliberate he chose to show Obi-Wan's lightsaber giving out of power and flickering as a sign of Obi-Wan's age weakening him and then in the following movies never shows anything like that with Yoda, Count Dooku, Sidious etc. and actually stresses how strong their force powers are and just comments that age still affects the body obviously which is involved with lightsaber dueling. Also a lightsaber functioning has nothing to do with the force we know now apparently.

 

I tend to favour the idea that most of Snoke's interaction with Ben Solo has been telepathic. In fact, perhaps he and Ben never met in person until after Ben turned to the Dark side. I think that Leia, and presumably Han, were the ones that met Snoke in person, sometime early on after the end of the Galactic civil war.

I think that the idea that Snoke has had physical access to Ben seems unlikely considering the new information we got from Bloodline. We know that Ben was born sometime shortly after the battle of Jakku ( exact timing tbc ), and in the TFA novelisation, Leia says that Snoke had been watching Ben "always", and there's a suggestion that this means even before Ben was born. Notice that mention of Snoke's name also leads Han to the conclusion that Leia had known this "from the beginning". Snoke is someone they met very early in this timeframe:

He met her eyes steadily. “We’ve lost our son, forever.”
Leia bit her lower lip, refusing to concede. “No. It was Snoke.”
Han drew back slightly. “Snoke ?”
She nodded. “He knew our child would be strong with the Force. That he was born with equal potential for good or evil.”
“You knew this from the beginning ? Why didn’t you tell me ?”
She sighed. “Many reasons. I was hoping that I was wrong, that it wasn’t true. I hoped I could sway him, turn him away from the dark side, without having to involve you.” A small smile appeared. “You had - you have - wonderful qualities, Han, but patience and understanding were never among them. I was afraid that your reactions would only drive him farther to the dark side. I thought I could shield him from Snoke’s influence and you from what was happening.” Her voice dropped.” It’s clear now that I was wrong. Whether your involvment would have made a difference, we’ll never know.”
He had trouble believing what he was hearing. “So Snoke was watching our son.”
“Always,” she told him. “From the shadows, in the beginning, even before I realized what was happening, he was manipulating everything, pulling our son toward the dark side.

It's also said in Bloodline that Luke spent years after ROTJ searching the galaxy for lost Jedi lore, before finally settling down to build a new Jedi order. So it seems likely that Luke was an absent figure during the early years of Ben's life: If Snoke was an associate of Luke's, it seems he wouldn't have much ( if any ) physical access to Ben during these years.

On the other side of this, if Snoke was someone in Leia's inner circle, or a politico, or diplomat, his access to Ben would diminish as soon as Ben was sent away to train with Luke. It's said that Luke kept very much to himself, and had not been seen publicly for many years, so it's unlikely that visitors from the political world would be welcome.

 

There are no Sith in TFA is what was said. If we're discussing theories, no matter how far-fetched, what if Snoke is trying to build his own Ideologies of the Sith just as Luke is building his ideologies of the Jedi. Basically, as Darth Bane made the rule of two and reformed the Sith, Snoke is now doing the same thing with his own idea of how it should be run? No Sith in TFA but maybe in VIII?

 

Then why does the idea have its own thread?

 

About Obi Wan. You also have to consider that he had been living as a hermit in the desert for like 20 years. And he'd had all of that time to ponder what went wrong and lament the DS having control of the Galaxy. So that might have affected his aging somewhat (stress and other emotional problems have been known to do that sometimes). Plus he was likely just out of practice in-general.

By contrast, Qui Gon was still actively going on Jedi missions/doing Jedi stuff despite his age, training an apprentice, and didn't have those same kind of worries/concerns. Plus he was part of a powerful Jedi Order and had access to all of the resources/inherent to that. So there not really the same situation if you think about it.

And as for Palpatine22315 I think that option B is probably more likely at this point myself. And it potentially makes Snoke a more interesting character since it raises the questions or what is he exactly, where did he come from, and how can he do all of this stuff?

 

Because this is a more general thread where all aspects of the character can be discussed including theories on who he may be, what his plans are, etc. whereas the other is a more specific thread for discussion on a popular theory.

Now let's get back on topic please.

 

Ok well, I think Snoke is a clone of Darth Sideous who was an evil clone of Palpatine who was actually a clone of DARTH Plagueis who used the force to influence the mediclorians to create said clone and transfer his consciousness into him. This was him cheating death. I don't care what the people said who actually created the movie. If it doesn't mesh with my favorite idea then they are obviously lying to keep the "big reveal" a secret.

 

There's also another possible reason for Obi-Wan's perceived weakness in ANH, and it comes from the early drafts of that film. I'm not suggesting that this is canon, but may have influenced Vader's "Your powers are weak, old man", line.

In the second draft, It's suggested that as one side of the Force grows stronger, the other grows weaker. This means that when the Jedi order was wiped out, the Light side of the Force was weakened as a result, and thus any surviving Jedi would also feel their connection to the Force weakened, including their power.


"There seems to be a balance to the Force. When one side gets stronger, the other gets weaker. It is possible to weaken one side so much that its servants lose contact with it. (With every Jedi death, contact with the Ashla grows weaker, and the force of the Bogan grows more powerful. Your contact with The Force of Others is weak to the point where it can no longer be trusted. The Force of Others is no longer with us."
http://starwarz.com/starkiller/second-draft-sourcebook/


Actually, this symbiotic relationship between the Jedi and the strength of the Light side, reminds me of Lor San Tekka's line:

"Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force".

 

Good to know, I'll have to read that book. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Absolutely! Happy to help (especially when its in regards to my favorite character!)

 

Thanks! I believe I was "told" this quite a few months ago, and since then I recall at least one mod in the thread actually redirecting Plagueis conversation to the other thread. So you can understand my confusion. But it's perfectly clear to me now: we can discuss Plagueis simultaneously in both threads.

 

I heard a rumor that the title of episode 8 is attack of the clones of Sideous Palpatine Plagueis Strikes back of the Jedi.

 

on the Obi Wan point, Luke would fall somewhere in the middle of this then dont you think ? he isnt exactly active, but he isnt exactly stressed in the same way OBi Wan was.
also, whether it (to the OP) it doesnt matter if it was due to limitations of the time. so far theres nothing to contradict it. Obi Wan straight up acknowledges that he's not what he used to be due to age, in relation to force and jedi power - thats canon. Thrawn suggested a good in-canon explanation to this, rather than something that is outside of the universe (canon).
theres probably a variety of ways to look at it, but in-canon, age can affect Force ability, which is only natural. again, to use your own example, Qui gonn was beaten by a young Maul, he was than beaten by a young Obi Wan... but theres obviously a lot of room for movement within the statement, as shown with dark siders especially.

as for Snoke (phew, back on topic), i never thought that he could have been a character that hasnt actually met Kylo. its an interesting thought and fits in with what we've actually seen. however, i dunno how much of a possibility it actually is considering the whole projection thing was done before in the OT, only for it to be confirmed in latter episodes they have clearly met before, not least for the last - hell, it dates back to even the before ATOC, with the new-canon comic Obi Wan and Anakin (which foreshadows it oh so subtly *sarcasm*)

He seems to be somewhat telepathic though, only shown more in the novelisation. theres so many questions surrounding their relationship, im extremely fascinated by this.

 

On this telepathic link idea: This is something I noticed in Bloodline, but I think that Snoke originally sought Leia out as a possible apprentice, soon after the war was over. There's a part of the book were Leia is asked why she didn't train to become a Jedi. Her answer is somewhat vague. Essentially, she says that she chose a life of politics instead, but it seems to me that there's a hint of some other reason behind this. Almost as if she's saying "That's a story for another time". I'll attempt a timeline of how I think this may have played out:

Star Wars:Aftermath: The Acolytes of the Beyond are searching the galaxy for Vader's possession's. They buy a lightsaber, saying the they intend to destroy it. What they really want it for is to give it to Snoke. Snoke will be able to use any object strongly connected to Vader to 'read' ( a power connected to the 'Force back' that Rey has when she touches the Skywalker saber, and also to the visions that Kylo receives from Vader's mask ) a history of exactly what happened in the throne room of the second Death Star. This lightsaber is a fake, though, and it's not until the acolytes track down Vader's remains on Endor that Snoke finally learns exactly what happened between Luke, Vader, and Palpatine. Through 'reading' Vader's mask,Snoke also learns that Leia is Luke's sister. He see's Luke's attachment to her as a weakness to be exploited, and sets his sights on her.

Immediately post the Battle of Jakku: Leia and Han travel the galaxy for several months ( this is alluded to in Bloodline ). Ben Solo is conceived during this time. During their travels, Leia and Han are contacted by the Acolytes of the Beyond. They are introduced to Snoke. Snoke demonstrates his power, and offers to teach Leia. Leia experiences the touch of the Dark Side here, and it's enough to scare her. This is the primary reason that she never took up Luke's offer to train her. Snoke has effectively poisoned Luke's vow.

Leia is strong though, and rejects Snoke's offer. She and Han make their mistake, but Snoke knows that she is pregnant, and he 'mark's Ben - like the wicked witch cursing Sleeping Beauty as an infant.

Leia and Snoke never meet again after this point, but his telepathic link to both her and Ben remains.

 

Possibly been said before: Maybe Snoke is a Dark Side conduit of sorts. Is it possible when Snoke says to Kylo that he is the embodiment of both the Light and Dark sides of the force, that maybe Snoke is just channeling HIS Dark Side of the force into Ben/Kylo almost as if he's possessing him but not in the sense of taking control of his body? Maybe it explains why Rey heard Snokes voice in her head. Snoke is a frail old being and just channels his DS energy into people so they can do his bidding, whatever it may be. He's scared of Luke because he can turn Ben back to the light and then Snoke will lose his pawn.

 

Yep another thing Lucas seemed to jump around on. I remember the PT having references of the dark side growing stronger weakening the light side but he has Mace Windu overcome Sidious in a fight. I know that scene was needed to explain his disfigurement and Anakin crossing over to the dark side but think it could have been handled differently. Lucas probably should have just stuck with the dark side eating up Sidious over the years like he was projecting in episode 2 then ditched in Episode 3.

 

The novels lead me to think right now that Snoke was in Ben's head for quite a few years laying the groundwork to recruit him but that Leia may not have actually met Snoke in person prior to him turning Ben. It will be interesting to see what the real story is on that.

 

I didn't think Mace was overcoming Sidious in that fight. Especially after reading the novel. It appeared that Sidious knew Anakin was coming and was playing the fight so that he appeared weak and vulnerable to Anakin in order to sway him to the dark side. Windu may have been more proficient with his saber, but Sidious unleashed far more force lightning once Windu was "unarmed."

 

I saw the Mace Sidious fight that way as well, he knew that if he played the cards that way Anakin would do what he did and have no choice but to go to the Dark Side.
BTW: Nice pun. lol

 

I will have to read the novel. I just remember an interview Lucas had with someone where he was asked if Sidious was letting Mace Windu get him into that position purposely and he said words to the effect that he was trying and the strongest force user doesn't always win a lightsaber duel that there is elements of luck etc involved and that old age does affect that ability some unlike overall force power or something like that. Basically saying Sidious wasn't throwing the fight on purpose.

I doubt force lightning can overcome a top Jedi Master level fighter that has a lightsaber to help him reflect it (just my guess). It would have been interesting to see Luke fight Palpatine. He would have to beat Luke by throwing a bunch of stuff or something but that might have destroyed the ship in that area killing them all.