Lit The One Canon

I can only accept Ben Solo and Ben Skywalker coexisting if one is renamed Owen as i always wanted in the first place. Never liked the name Ben for Skywalker. In my headcanon Lukes son is Owen Skywalker... and Ben Solo is short for Berethon Solo

 

yub and they as well as the Terminator timetravel in general exactly fit the style I was aiming for, though I came more from a cross of 12 Monkeys tv show (far superior to the movie) and Sliders angle here with Mortis as the LOST fixed point to unite all timelines/loops.

 

Oh what product are you refering to @Sinrebirth ?

I love your post! I guess you read my 12 Monkey Lizards "The Force as Time" topic of a while ago?

https://boards.theforce.net/threads...-kowakian-monkey-lizards-philosophy.50051993/

Given these 7 fixed events, deviation from them is possible but never ends actually good despite some victories along the way. All Infinities timelines thus may give alternate ends to the movies, but ultimately not to the universe or saga as a whole. (Oh how I can't wait for Sequel Trilogy Infinities Comics if they ever dare to!)

So would you be saying that in TCW Mortis Arc Anakin failed as Chosen One to take the Fathers place despite being powerful enough to do so, thus the Force turned his fate into Chaos i.e. Vader to reset the entire gamebord via purges of Jedi and Sith alongside the death of all Mortis Ones?

If not viewing Vader as the Purgemaster, and Chaos refers to Abeloth actually much later on, was her release the consequence of time-shenangians, or the cause of it, or both?

It is interesting how in late TCW/Rebels etc. Ahsoka became the embodyment of the Daughter in the flesh complet with her birdy whereas Darth Maul became the embodyment of the Son (not just same voiceactor lol), with both respectively good and evil, but occasionally working together (TCW finale) and both despite their allegiance to Light and Darkness not as misguided dogmatic as the Jedi or Sith (anymore).

Other minor roles fleshed out the pantheon of Mortis then, with the Bendu, Ezra the Bridger and later even Luke, Leia, Kylo and Rey.

Makes me wonder Lost Season5, the timetravel back to the Dharma Foundation. Such a foundation within the GFFA would be neat, or can any existing entity be identified with it? My mind jumped to Guardians of the Whills guarding more than just temples and pilgrims... maybe even travellers from other times? Or what about all these prophets and order of the pessimists, terrible glare etc. and those that witness pivotal deadly event in time and space (from the Doctor Aphra comic and the Jedha stuff in the main line).

 

Hello everyone. I am fairly new to all this so please excuse me if what I am about to ask was answered in this (or other) thread. My primary canon is the Old EU. However, I am open to adding stuff from NewCanon as long as there are no significant contradictions that would rewrite EU material in a big way. In particular, I am interested in everything pre-ROTJ. I'll try to list some of the NewCanon novels; can someone please, who chronicled the conjoined continuity of, both, EU and NewCanon, list some of the contradictions that are present, if I to add NewCanon novels to the EU. Here they are:

1) Tarkin
2) Thrawn
3) Lords of the Sith
4) Lost Stars
5) Queen's Shadow
6) Master and Apprentice
7) Battlefront Twilight Company
8) Leia, Princess of Alderaan
9) Inferno Squad
10) Dark Disciple
11) Dooku: jedi lost

Again, I am sorry if this was answered before, I could not find a complete list for all of these. Thank you.

 

One issue that "time travel hypotheses" may need to deal with is that (at least in real life) the only logically consistent form of "time travel" is one where you are not able to change/rewrite history. From Wikipedia:

Now:
(a) This assumes that Star Wars is a hard science-fiction universe. It's not. So it could ignore the Novikov self-consistency principle. Actually, it probably already has - Faster-Than-Light travel can also be used for time travel, yet nobody in Star Wars treats the hyperdrive as a time machine.
(b) The Novikov self-consistency principle assumes that there is only one timeline in existence and that you're trying to change that specific timeline. So if we say that "changing history" merely means "creating a brand new timeline and then living in that timeline", then we would still adhere to the "Novikov self-consistency principle". But that would mean that the old timeline that you left hasn't really been "erased" - it's still out there, somewhere, just no longer accessible by you. (So I guess there are no such thing as "dead" timelines then...just maybe timelines that nobody can ever access directly except via Force visions...)

 

2) Disagree with the post above saying this was designed to be Legends compatible. Thrawn's promotion to Grand Admiral happens much earlier than in Legends. Legends Thrawn was promoted around ESB as seen in the TIE Fighter PC game. I think I even remember reading (can't find a link sorry) that Zahn saying the TIE Fighter thing was something he wanted to ignore, hardly a sign of someone making their book Legends compatible.

8) Again disagree with the post saying zero contradictions. Moff Panaka is killed in this novel before ANH, whereas in Legends he's around after ROTJ to have a tense talk with Leia.

Panaka joins the surprisingly long list of New Canon casualties (Ventress, Hobbie, Draven, etc.) who are wondering why they are being killed in a continuity that's supposed to emphasize freedom for film/tv appearances. (I honestly never understood this either).

10) I don't even know where to start on this. Having read the entire Quinlan Vos Dark Horse Clone Wars run and Dark Disciple, they are just not compatible. You'd have an easier time placing Daniel Craig and Sean Connery's Bonds in the same timeline, or even Fox's X-Men into the MCU.

 

Is this a major problem? If so, how do you recommend they be reconciled? Also, I understand that everyone who works on Star Wars is more or less work-for-hire and their opinion on things outside of their control doesn't matter, but shouldn't Zahn's written and published vision of how Thrawn became Grand Admiral be more respected than other takes on it?

Isn't most of his Legends history only known from the Essential Guide to Warfare, not any prose? Shouldn't prose be valued over sourcebooks?

 

Demotions for Thrawn are probably in order, although a Rebel sequel show might muck with that. He didn't exactly end his campaign in Rebels with a rousing victory for the Empire after all.

 

(a) Hyperdrive mishaps are known to have had timetravel effects as per rare mentions in rpg sourcebooks and Holonetnews (now defunct formerly inuniverse website). Mishap lead to people exit hyperspace in the wrong time (hundreds of years in the future).

(b) Novikov's principle is flawed in itself already as it, as you mentioned, poses only one timeline can exist. Even more problematic, it thinks of only ONE single timetraveller and its effects on the timeline. What if multiple travellers attempt to alter it or travel to different spots on it? Then Novikov collapses in on itself with paradox. But yes I like your mention of Forcevisions and timelines never dying but existing in another form on, just without your traveller. Very fitting!

(c) The only way to avoid paradox is to not treat a timeline as fixed to itself which would force all to adhere to the same timeline, but rather fixed to a person. Each traveller charts his/her own timeline across the ocean of time/moments/events and can sort them including cause, effects, outcomes accordingly. Each being is his/her own god creating your own universe, stringing its moments and possibilities up in your personal timeline. The more people though sort events in the same way on their personal timeline, the more these individual timelines overlap, the more their timelines become a shared stronger timeline, for the duration of the overlap (with origins or ends possibly differing and you only sharing part of the road with others so to speak). Carlos Dorofati wrote excellent works on this and his views on time, the universe and souls are really inspiring if you care to look them up!

In short: Probability is important. Time is an ocean that contains all possibilities. Each individual is a god that can create a universe/timeline from them any way they want. Where you overlap with others you share some time/part of the timeline with others (like a subway network where some lines run paralell for some time and then divert again!). Now the more run paralell, the more probable is it that this timeline piece will remain strong and consistent as more people/souls support its existence with their believe/wish/creation of it. Thus we got a network of personal timelines and choices, but only the highest probabilities forge strong shared timelines. Others remain lower probability timelines and loops that exist for a brief period only or for one person only (headcanon, mindspace, dreamscape, etc.) whereas the stronger elements form the major timelines despite all the lesser minor ones around and within it.

Dorofati thus provides a better model I think about time, souls, multiverses even accounting for mind, dream and other scapes. Still his model includes Novikov in that the highest probability timeline, supported by most people makes up the main line so to speak. But one that can be altered or changed completely even and expands the view beyond the oversimplification of Novikov!


Back to some SW applications:

If each traveller charts his/her own timeline, he could be content with changing it for him/herself. That way the new one might be a less strong timeline than the main line, but it works for the person in question. Alternatively, he/she intends to create a new mainline, a paralell mainline, or even change the existing main line. For that he/she needs a high probability and a high number of supporters. Well I do not know how large a number of followers that would be, given the universe is vast, vaster than one GFFA galaxy or even a billion bubbles of a billion galaxies each. But for funs sake, and biblical holy texts usually giving insanely lower numbers for achieving any significant changes to reality (like the magical 7, 12, 144, etc.), lets assume it is possible within a lifetime and the gffa.

Are the Sith Eternal Palpatines support group for timeline changes/manifestations? Are Revanites that of Darth Revan? Who is the legacy and followership of Jacen Solo or other travellers or heroes mentioned in my earlier posts? Allana and the Ten Mortis Knights? Add strong places enabling single people to do incredible feats (like Mortis, etc.) so you can use a lower number but have to place them strategically across the galaxy for ritual? Holy Geometry at work on a galactic scale?

Jacen "Caedus" Solo's legacy entails several people he influenced, even if they rejected his Sithness ultimately. Tahiriina Kwaadveila, Allana Djo Solo, Ben Skywalker, Erenada Tenel Ka Djo chume. And there are legions more that he has influenced even if indirectly. Each placed in strategic celestial locations may be able to achieve something major. Placed across space and time. (cue Time Bandits and a map of time / WBW to give Warwick yet another role in this!)

No wonder Cade Skywalker was on Death Sticks... given the time shenangians of his precursers and whatever burden and mess he inherited to solve. And now nobody can anylonger blame poor Voren Naal to sort all this mess of history apart without making errors and recording some retconned/timetravel affected and changed history as fact.


PS: Sinre and Co, if this cloggs up this topic, sorry and I create my own or move it to already existant 12 Kowakian Monkey lizards timetravel theory one linked to earlier.

 

Sinrebirth is doing gods work. and time travel gets too messy after awhile and we don't want Star Wars to get messy like say the flash or x-men whenever they do a time travel story poorly

 

Thanks for answering my question. Yesterday began reading Battlefront: Twilight Company and, as far as I got, the story itself is pretty self contained and does not clash with anything in EU (I hope that will remain the case for the rest of the novel). On a side note, how do you feel High Republic stuff will fit into EU based on the limited information that we got: height of Galactic republic, Golden Age of Jedi, Starlight beacons, Great Disaster, hidden Sith Vault called Bogan Collection (what is interesting, the name Bogan is also used for dark force in EU's Dawn of the Jedi) etc.?

 

Continuity notes:

1) Tarkin, atypically for Luceno, avoids referring to much of the Expanded Universe. No mention is made of many of Wilhuff's EU relationships (his son Garoche from Darth Vader and the Lost Command, his wife Thalassa from Classic Star Wars Princess Leia, Imperial Servant, his mistress Natasi Daala from the Jedi Academy Trilogy, or his one-time slave Gial Ackbar from Darksaber), but part of that is down to the novel's place on the timeline. It does, however, allude to Ranulph Tarkin from the Stark Hyperspace War, to Tarkin giving Palps early Death Star info from Rogue Planet (as did R1), to Tarkin and Anakin's history in TCW, and to Luceno's previous portrayals of Tarkin in Cloak of Deception and Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Luceno does not try to reconcile whether Anakin and Tarkin first met in Rogue Planet or TCW, but that "contradiction" may be more apparent than real.

The Sith Altar under the Jedi Temple comes from an unproduced arc of TCW, and the notion that Palps turned the Temple into his Palace (already inconsistently portrayed in the Old EU) probably also comes from Filoni. In that dark side vein, Luceno is nicely able to bring back the droid 11-4D from Darth Plagueis, as well as the notion that the Force can strike back. Teases of Palps' plans to overcome the Force, his endgame, seem to have been developed in different (though not contradictory) directions in the Rebels finale and in TROS.

2) Thrawn opens with a retelling/expansion of Zahn's EU short story "Mist Encounter," and proceeds to show what appears to be Thrawn and Palps' first meeting. But as with Anakin and Tarkin, nothing is explicitly said to contradict the notion that they met years earlier (albeit via hologram) in Outbound Flight. Both Thrawn and Palps may have had their own reasons for not openly discussing their earlier meeting, when Palps as Darth Sidious asked Thrawn to help him kill the Jedi on Outbound Flight.

As for Thrawn's rank, if memory serves that was wobbly even in the Old EU - in Galaxy of Fear:The Swarm, he's shown wearing a Grand Admiral's uniform but is referred to once as General. Can probably be hand-waved away as a series of promotions/demotions/re-promotions, the wearing of many hats (for a parallel example, Admiral/Governor/Moff Tarkin), and Palps keeping Thrawn's true rank secret from all but those serving directly under him and the top military brass (keeping Thrawn publicly demoted as a dog-whistle for COMPNOR).

3) Lords of the Sith did not create the difficulty with the portrayal of Ryloth, merely inheriting the problem from TCW. In the EU, Ryloth had been shown to be in tidal lock, with a permanent, fixed day side and night side. In TCW and Lords of the Sith, Ryloth rotates, with alternating day and night. The old L-Canon thread did come up with a fix for this. Ryloth has an enormous axial precession. At one extreme its axis is perpendicular to its orbital plane; at the other extreme, its axis is in alignment with its orbital plane. Throw in Ryloth's moons for extra erratic effects, and you can get Ryloth to sometimes have day and night sides, sometimes not. Otherwise, Cham Syndulla does serve as a nice bridge from TCW to Rebels.

Not aware of any other issues with this one, unless you count more subjective stuff (e.g., Vader seems to have a more acrobatic fighting style than we see elsewhere).

4) Lost Stars - Haven't read (yet).

5) Queen's Shadow adds to the roster of Naboo monarchs, but I think Matt Martin found a way to make it all cohere (Master&Apprentice adds another [unnamed] young Naboo queen earlier in the timeline). Panaka seems to retire and hand Padme's security over to Typho much earlier than shown in the AOTC novelization (though perhaps that scene can be moved to here?), and Sola Naberrie's husband Darren Janren seems to have been written out of things (though maybe they married later and he adopted Sola's kids?). The appearance of the Delta-7 and the absence of Alderaan's moon can be explained with earlier model/prototype and misinformed POV respectively. There is a brief mention of Padme's time as princess before becoming queen (though Veruna is unmentioned), and like in the EU, the ancient Gungans were displaced by Naboo's human settlers (so much for Padme's politician claim in TPM that they had always lived side by side in peace).

Not sure if there are any direct connections to Queen in Disguise, A Queen's Diary, or The Queen's Amulet - maybe Johnson will allude to these in Queen's Peril. Personally, it was nice to see Padme send Sabe to find and free Shmi Skywalker from slavery (unclear to what extent Palps may have frustrated their efforts).

6) Master & Apprentice (along with Dooku: Jedi Lost) both makes meaningful use of the EU and risks undermining certain elements of it. Gray clearly read and thought deeply about Qui-Gon's POV on the Force from the TPM novel - though the conflict of light and dark may be eternal, one should choose the light for its own sake. Opposing slavery, not playing politics, ought to be part of the Jedi's mission. (Here Qui-Gon seems so prophecy-focused that it risks undermining his focus on the Living Force in the moment, but Yoda recognized that tension in Qui-Gon's thinking back in Cloak of Deception. OOU, the prophecies were probably hints about TROS.) Gray also took to heart Stover's ROTS musings, on Yoda and on why Kenobi uses and is so effective with Soresu (and so good with varactyls). And there is a hilarious scene explaining why Obi-Wan went from loving flying in Jedi Apprentice to hating it in the PT.

However, here the Jedi order apparently only existed for 10,000 years, normally took padawans around human puberty (so much for Obi-Wan's fear of being sent to the Ag core for being too old to become a padawan), and conducted "many military campaigns" (so much for "keepers of the peace, non soldiers"). Apparently Obi-Wan thinks he was taken into the order at age three (instead of in infancy per the ROTS novel), and Depa Bilaba's age and when she joins the council seems to have changed. The newly introduced and atypically uncorrupt Chancellor Kaj complicates the timeline of chancellors, but her many years of leading the Senate may have been as chancellor/speaker (Madame Speaker in the Farlander Papers?) rather than as Supreme Chancellor.

Introducing Rael Aveross as Dooku's apprentice before Qui-Gon has pros and cons from a One Canon perspective (more on that under Dooku: Jedi Lost). Only will mention here that Gray seems to use Qui-Gon's reaction to Aveross' behavior to mildly retcon Lucas' comments about Jedi freedom to hook-up (spirit of the law vs letter of the law). On the other hand, Gray does allude to a relationship Qui-Gon had which, unless/until otherwise specified, is presumably Tahl. So long as the High Republic keeps Gray too busy to write a sequel that might say otherwise (e.g., a novel about Jinn and Kenobi's year on Mandalore, discussing their respective love-interests and featuring cameo returns of Pax and Rahara), that is.

7) Battlefront: Twilight Company features a brief, unnamed cameo from Han Solo at Hoth base, but otherwise avoids the main characters and stories, thus proving remarkably EU-friendly. It does develop certain methods of hyperspace tracking (which I think the EU regarded as almost impossible), refined by the time of TLJ, but apparently effective enough by ANH for Vader to track the Tantive IV's damaged hyperdrive from Scarif to Tatooine (per "Raymus" in From a Certain Point of View). That makes it difficult to shoehorn in Toprawa between R1 and ANH, and makes U-3P0's spying for the Empire redundant, but the short stories in FACPOV are sometimes of dubious canoncity (though "fake Wedge" deserves to be canon, lol). Anyway, only tangentially relevant to Twilight Company.

8) Leia, Princess of Alderaan has Saw Gerrera's Partisans try to assassinate Panaka, but we never see a body - perhaps his survival was covered up for his own protection. And if he doesn't remember having met Leia before post-Endor, chalk it up to traumatic brain injury from the blast.

Only other issue I can think of: Giles Durane (The Weapons Master) apparently wasn't the only one to help with Leia's combat training. (No EU problem, but the scene where Bail, Breha, and Mon Mothma play-act a soap opera to throw Tarkin off the scent is priceless. )

9) Inferno Squad - Haven't read (yet).

10) Dark Disciple doesn't so much contradict Quinlan Vos' arc in the Republic comics as make it redundant. HEDGESMFG in his L-Canon Clone Wars timeline makes it work as far as Tholme faking his death (again) and Vos struggling with his dark side.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BlXgAaPSr7KHaqI0cFx8moshwtQ-86GoVeeya99DQQk/edit

The remaining issue is why doesn't Vos in Dark Disciple seem to remember Ventress from his earlier time in Dooku's inner circle (see Republic 69: Dreadnaughts of Rendili, Part I, where she's trying to kill him). Well, Vos has had memory loss problems before. After he thinks Tholme has died, Vos must have used that amnesia drug Villie had plied him with years before in order to erase the painful memories around the loss of his master. Perhaps he used the Force to try to target which memories were affected (drawing on Barriss' Force experiments with bota?), but wound up erasing his memory of Ventress as well. Alternatively, like Barriss in L-Canon (Evasive Action: Reversal of Fortune), Vos was Revanned and reinstated, the Jedi Council wiping his memories so he could rejoin the fight.

11) Dooku: Jedi Lost draws the Ruling Houses of Serenno and their windrunners from the EU (Agent of the Empire), echoes both young Dooku's EU attempt to steal a Sith holocron with Lorian Nod (Legacy of the Jedi) and the Kenobi-Skywalker-Tano dynamic with Dooku-Aveross-Jinn, and makes references to Dooku's meeting Ventress in the microseries. All of Ventress' narration here, though, must take place before the scene in the microseries when she sees the hologram of Sidious (in Jedi Lost, she doesn't know to whom Dooku's sister is referring when she mentions the "hooded man"). Maybe this and their first meeting on Rattatack all happened in the lead-up to AOTC (which would mean that Republic Intelligence was already trying to assassinate Dooku before the war broke out).

Speaking of first meetings, the meeting here of Palpatine and Dooku seems to be for the first time, and doesn't jive all that well with their first encounter in Darth Plagueis (unless both assumed that the other wouldn't remember them and didn't want to embarrass the other). Thame Cerulian is absent from Dooku's story here, but that oddity is as much an inheritance of the EU's own discrepancies as it is a contradiction of the EU (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous both creates and potentially resolves this tension). A bit more difficult is fitting in when Komari Vosa was Dooku's padawan (presumably after Jinn? The addition of Aveross makes this a narrower squeeze). But we're still well before Galidraan, and Aveross' assignment as regent of a planet in Master & Apprentice makes it plausible that Yoda would consider Dooku's return to Serenno at the end of Jedi Lost in the same light (i.e., not really leaving the Jedi Order). In One Canon, Dooku must come back by the time of his discussions with Palps in Darth Plagueis, before finally leaving after Qui-Gon's death.

It is unclear from this whether Sifo-dyas was ever well enough to serve on the Jedi Council, or whether the Count's One Canon name is Dooku Dooku or Dooku Serenno. Of interest, though - the overwhelming dark side vision that Lene Kostana, Sifo-Dyas, Dooku all share seems to happen approximately the year of Palpatine's birth.

 

In my head the one canon is created by Ezra saving Ahsoka in WBW, creating a second timeline which Disney is currently following, that solves the problem going forward. I.e Ahsoka being alive changes Han & Leia, they don't have the twins, also Luke doesnt meet Mara and have Ben etc etc.... But as has been pointed out it doesnt solve the contradictions that exist prior to WBW. Someone suggested that the event in WBW creates ripples that extend back in time as well so there are two pasts as well as two futures.

As much as we are dealing with a fictional universe here, the idea of the two timelines into the past doesnt seem right to me. Sorry whomever posted that!

So I'm desperately trying to figure out a way to explain things like Han's origin story being different etc etc

Any ideas anyone?

 

EU Han and SOLO (and tie-ins) can be reconciled at least four different ways:

The SturmAntilles Analysis: https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-one-canon.50033067/page-20#post-56160428

The Bongiorno Juxtaposition (5/24/18): http://www.starwarstimeline.net/Archived News 2018.htm

The Sidv88 Solution (Crucible Canon): SOLO is "Han Solo and the Pirates of Kessel," the holodrama mentioned in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

The Sinrebirth Retcon: Han and Lando won and lost the Falcon back and forth to one another multiple times, and they already knew each other in SOLO, as they were scamming Crimson Dawn the whole time.

For what it's worth, I think somewhere in the Thrawn Trilogy it is mentioned that Han and Lando once did a Kessel run together.

 

I actually really like this idea, Kcaj being Chancellor more than one term doesn't work in canon anyways because Dooku: Jedi Lost establishes that Kalpana was Chancellor when Dooku left the order and Rael Aveross was already on Pijal at the time.

Initially I assumed Kcaj's "long service" was just Quigon's POV since he had spent most of the last few years training Obi-Wan and going on mission that kept him very busy, which certainly could make that time period feel very long for him.

But if she was the Speaker, or Vice Chair before being elected Chancellor that can make his statement to be more literal.

 

The idea of the Imperial Palace being the former Jedi Temple comes from SW: Infinities version of ANH. The early canon Rebels book features Kanan stating that the Jedi temple was destroyed and reduced to dust, which isnt true and a continuity issue in the new canon. The Trevorrow script turned the temple into something like how it was in TFU. Unfortunately Luke never does anything with the Coruscant Imperial Palace in neo-Canon(the movies just ignored it), so its still not compatible with the EU.