CT Understanding Luke's Cave vision

Having disagreements doesn't mean there can't be a discussion. I mean, we're discussing it right now. Again, it's the Dagobah cave scene. I sure wouldn't expect everyone to have the exact same opinion about it.

And comparing a scene that's all about symbolism and foreshadowing with Yoda being a 10 ft tall gorilla?... Come on.

There's no set-in-stone way anyone has to look at the scene. Again, the thing with Luke bringing his weapons is more just a nitpick of mine. It doesn't ruin the scene for me or anything, and I'm not saying it's the intention of the scene, or the right way or only way to see it.

And again:

Not sure what else to say. Agree to disagree and leave it at that I guess.

 

Luke bringing his weapons into the cave was failure. The movie outright states this. And it carries on to Luke being too brash when he goes to Bespin to save his friends. He puts himself in a terrible situation, almost dies, and his friends end up having to save him. So you saying you choose not to see it that way, means you're just pretending the movie is saying something that it isn't. How am I supposed to talk about the movie if you're going to pretend it's about other things?

 

Yoda even says "the cave. Remember your failure at the cave."

 

I'm not ''pretending'' anything, and I didn't say anything about it being about failure or whatever. And I don't want to keep repeating myself and keep getting this "no, you're saying it's something that it's not" response, when that's not what I'm saying, so once again, agree to disagree.

 

Luke turned up on Dagobah hoping to find a great warrior, only to be told that wars don't make one great. It took him a long time to really understand and believe this. Taking his weapons into the cave symbolised that lack of understanding and belief. Only at the very end of ROTJ when he threw his lightsabre down did he truly get it. That's how I read it anyway.

 

Luke threw away his lightsaber to show that he would rather die than play the Emperor's game and fall the to the dark side.

It has nothing to do with using weapons or not. A Jedi does use weapons: the lightsaber. A Jedi does fight. A Jedi is a great warrior. But being a Jedi is not about being a great warrior, it's not about power. It's about not giving into anger, even in a fight. It's about not giving into the dark side.

 

That is definitely how I see it. The cave scene is a set-up scene to the later one where Luke rushes off to Cloud City. Yoda even makes reference to it as he is leaving, and of course, he is right. Luke's failure at the cave carries over to his failure at Cloud City, where he barely escapes with his life.

 

to me luke's cave vision has two meanings
One meaning being the relation to his father/vader and soon to see himself in vader
The second meaning being luke's journey to the dark side through the three films, in a new hope we see him wearing white clothes to resemble his purity with the force, in the empire strikes back we see him wearing darker clothes to resemble his pull to the dark side and then in return of the jedi we see him wearing black to resemble his exposure to the dark side and then in the last moments of the scene we see white to resemble his choice to remain on the light side

 

As a kid I had trouble understanding it because I didn't realize that was Luke's face in the shattered helmet. Then when I did it (maybe from reading about it somewhere - maybe an issue of SW Insider, it was the 1990s) it made sense.

 

This is, maybe, how it's been understood by JJ Abrams.
https://boards.theforce.net/threads...-and-symbolism.50054022/page-27#post-57281183

 

it means Dark Empire

 

A lot of people didn't realize this back in the day.

 

Check out clone Wars the lost season, Yoda has his own cave scene were he goes in with out a weapon. Its really about being tempted to use the dark side, as I indicate in my post above

 

I think this is good interpretation of the scene if you are looking at the Empire Strikes as a stand alone movie. But I think if you step back and take a look at the scene in light of the prequel trilogy, the Jedi kill without touching the dark side. Yoda kills the clone troopers that attack him and several clone soldiers are killed by Yoda and Obi-Wan when they enter the temple. Also there is the entire clone wars in which the Jedi fought not just against machines. So to look at at the scene just being about violence vs peace, is only looking at it from the point of view of just this movie.
This interpretation doesn't make as much sense if you even just look at Return of the Jedi where Yoda tells Luke you must face Darth Vader again. Luke tells Obi-Wan I can't do it Ben I can't kill my own father. Then the Emperor had already won.

So Yoda is anti violence in Empire Strikes Back, but then in Return of the Jedi is like go kill your Dad, it feels like a conflicting message

 

I don't know. Yoda did tell Luke in "Return of the Jedi" that he had to face Anakin. But whether he had expected Luke to kill his father - I don't know. Unlike Obi-Wan's intentions for Luke, Yoda's has always seemed vague to me.

 

Yoda was very frail at that moment, his strength was failing him fast as death crept up, he just managed to find the strength to mention Luke had a relative.

 

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

It's truly amazing how deep we can go into this outstanding scene. I for one was always a little confused but we can all interpret this scene many different ways. The main message is stated above with Billy Bud as Luke was in the middle of training and then boom, pop quiz by Yoda. He even helped give Luke a cheat sheet by telling him, even though you have fears and dark thoughts, leave those behind when facing them. Be open to not fighting which of course is what he ends up doing which in turn is exactly what needed to be done to have Anakin turn from the dark.

 

When I was a kid, I always thought that it meant that Luke would eventually turn to the Dark Side and then in Leia would save him. Eventually we got a version of this with Dark Empire.

 

Did Luke's failure with the cave impact or have some effect on his future failure when he went to "talk" to his nephew about his nephew's dark emotions? Both times Luke chose the path that had the safety and security of a lighsaber in hand, is that Luke's weakness? A weakness even after 20 odd years, he can't overcome?

 

Yes, exactly! When people say Luke wouldn't light up his saber over sleeping Ben, I think, Haven't you watched the OT? Luke has a long history of grabbing his saber when he shouldn't.

 

Luke is told that he wont need his weapons. Thats the big mistake. Doesnt listen to his master and goes in expecting trouble and gets it. If Luke had gone in unarmed and relaxed I think a different vision wouldve happened. I dont think Vader wouldve appeared.

Not sure who wouldve though. Maybe no one.

 

Go on... ?